A little history lesson here.... in the beginning (the 1800's) shaving creams were made with tallow, among other things. When science advanced and oils and fats were able to be broken down into their individual fatty acids then soapmakers found it easier to construct a shaving soap or shaving cream using the individual fatty acids. Many settled on using Stearic Acid, Myristic Acid and Coconut Fatty acid as their main ingredients along with two hydroxides (KOH and NaOH) with additional glycerin to replace the glycerin that is missing after the fatty acids are sequestered into their individual categories like Stearic, Lauric, Oleic, Palmitic and so forth. Making these two products out of the fatty acids gives the soapmaker much more control over the end result. Using oils or fats like tallow in their "natural" state doesn't give the characteristics that a shaving products needs to perform well. Think of this as a "refinement" in the process and the end result. That is why so many of the British Creams (and mine as well) contain Stearic, Myristic and Coconut Fatty acids! And the best part is that the end product won't have that distinctive "Tallow" smell that so many Tallow based soaps have! I remember smelling Tallow based soaps in the early 1960's as a child and thinking once you get past the fragrance you have this... not so pleasant aroma in the background! Does this help?
Why don't Creams contain tallow like many soaps?
- Thread starter brucered
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It helps me understand that tallow isn't necessary for great shaving creams & soaps. But... I'm missing the answer to the OP's original question - why are there no creams with tallow? Is there some practical reason?
You confused me when you cited the creaminess of creams as the reason (if that's the answer, that's the answer); but since tallow isn't necessary for soaps, might its use be optional at least for creams? And, if not, why not? (I will accept that creams are creamy and adding tallow would hinder that essential creaminess - but then I'll want to know why....................)
Yeah, I have some tallowy old vintage soaps... bless their greasy little soap-hearts.
You confused me when you cited the creaminess of creams as the reason (if that's the answer, that's the answer); but since tallow isn't necessary for soaps, might its use be optional at least for creams? And, if not, why not? (I will accept that creams are creamy and adding tallow would hinder that essential creaminess - but then I'll want to know why....................)
Yeah, I have some tallowy old vintage soaps... bless their greasy little soap-hearts.
Fair point, although I don't think this alters what I said about saponified tallow in a soap base not being the same thing as pure tallow being added as an emollient.
I thought the same thing, until I read otherwise in Wikipedia. Specifically: "In industry, tallow is not strictly defined as beef or mutton fat. In this context, tallow is animal fat that conforms to certain technical criteria, including its melting point. It is common for commercial tallow to contain fat derived from other animals, such as lard from pigs, or even from plant sources."
Granted, Wikipedia isn't always right, but if that information is wrong, I blame it on them.
If I'm wrong, I will stand corrected, but I'll explain my I wrote what I did. When looking at ingredients lists for soaps or creams, the saponified fats (soap base ingredients) are listed either as their saponified versions, or as their original fat versions followed by the saponifying agent. For instance, Nancy Boy lists the ingredients of potassium stearate, sodium myristate, and sodium stearate. The Gentlemens Refinery is similar. However, Art of Shaving lists palmitic acid, myristic acid, and stearic acid, followed by potassium hydroxide. In either case, some indication is given that the base fats/oils are saponified.
However, the times I have seen coconut oil listed, it is only listed as coconut oil, never as a saponified version. With AOS, you might be able to surmise the coconut acid (not oil) is saponified by the potassium hydroxide, although coconut acid comes after potassium hydroxide on the ingredients list. But with Nancy Boy and TGR, there is no indication the coconut oil included in the cream has been saponified. The base ingredients are listed as their saponified versions; the coconut oil isn't. Why would this be so if the coconut oil was also saponified?
I once e-mailed Perry Gastis at TGR to ask him about the difference between coconut acid and coconut oil, since most English creams use the acid instead of oil, whereas TGR uses the oil. He consulted his chemist, and provided his answer. The full exchange can be seen on the "Ask the Barber" page of the TGR website, Q&A 31. Of note, the chemist says, "The coconut oil as opposed to coconut acid also contains unsaponifiables (not fatty acids) that have healing properties and are less refined or processed." I took this to mean that coconut oil is added in its whole, unsaponfied form, not only for its emollient properties, but also for its botanical benefits. Again, if I'm wrong in this regard, I'll stand corrected.
I draw a distinction between so-called "brushless" creams, and non-lathering creams. I see lots of soap-based, lathering creams labeled as "brushless," insofar as they work just fine if you scoop some out and rub it on your face with your hands. This is a brushless use, but they also work well with a brush. AOS is stated as being for either a brush or brushless right on the tub. Nancy Boy is also often called a brushless cream, but we know it works just fine with a brush. A true non-lathering cream, however, won't lather no matter what you do with it, such as the Lab Series and Clinique examples I mentioned. I'm not aware of a soap-based cream that fits this description, but if there is one, again, I'll stand corrected.
I'll take it on faith you're right. I do know the older formulations of Proraso green and Santa Maria Novella included SLS in their formulations, but this was in addition to the soap ingredients in the base. (FWIW, the older Proraso lists coconut oil above potassium hydroxide in its ingredients, so this could be an example of where the oil is saponified, rather than used in unsaponified form.)
Just to refine my point somewhat, saponified coconut oil is sodium cocoate. Given that Nancy Boy and TGR list their soap-base ingredients in their saponified forms (potassium stearate, sodium myristate, etc.), wouldn't it follow that they would list sodium cocoate if the coconut oil included in the mix was saponified? Given that they list coconut oil as its own ingredient, without showing a saponifying agent, or showing it in its saponified form, doesn't it follow that the coconut oil isn't saponified?
I suppose the next step would be to write the Nancy Boy or TGR and ask them specifically, but I haven't gotten around to this yet.
Shaving Cream and Shaving Soap are products regulated by the FDA and must use proper FDA ingredients listings. I do, but not all of the artisan soapmakers or soapmaking companies follow those guidelines. If saponified ingredients are listed by their proper INCI names followed by an oil, fatty acid or butter that is low on the product list then it is fairly safe to assume that the oil, fatty acid or butter listed lower on the list is being used as an emollient as well as it not have “sodium” or “potassium” listed in front of it!
They only list one source at the bottom of their page and their comment doesn't refer to what "industry" they referring to. This would not be the case with a soapmaking company and I have spoken with reps from one in Massachusetts about this matter. Wikipedia is a good source for information but not always the best source.
OK, this is quite a simple answer. Ingredient lists go from the largest percentage to the smallest percentage of the ingredients used. If an ingredient is less than 1% then you can put the ingredients in whatever order you wish. If it is above 1% then it must be from largest percentage to smallest percentage. Therefore, the coconut oil that is listed after the potassium hydroxide simply means that there is smaller percentage of it than the KOH! This also means that the coconut oil is being saponifed by the KOH!(if the ingredients before it are not preceded by "potassium" or "sodium", of course!)
Coconut Fatty Acids have a smaller range of the middle chain fatty acids such as Lauric and Myristic which make it more ideal for use in a shaving cream or soap for their lathering abilities. The “healing properties” are debatable since the pH of the soap or cream can be high enough to make them less functional. Coconut Oil is also much cheaper than Coconut Fatty Acids are because of the extra procedures Coconut Fatty Acids have to go through to be created from Coconut Oil and the tiny percentage of the Coconut Oil used may give some emollience but not all that much considering the fact that it is so low on the ingredients list.
The point I was trying to make is that just because a cream has a soap base doesn’t make it have lather! I have a container right next to me with my first cream in it from the early 2000’s and it has a soap base but does not lather and it still smells pretty good with a nice lavender scent!
Both Sodium Hydroxide and Potassium Hydroxide are going to be lower on a list constructed in that way because it only takes a small amount of each to saponify what would be a larger quantity of oil, butter or fatty acid.
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When I was steering the Cream forum, I kept puzzling over why there were so many artisan soap makers and dramatically few artisan cream makers (David being one of them). This discussion illustrates, I think, why there are so few. With soaps, you can get into it fairly easily, with bulk raw ingredients like tallow, Palm oil, coconut oil, etc. and a bunch of tried and true recipes for soap that you can riff off of. With creams, it's much more of an art using raw fatty acids and not complex, multicomponent fats as base materials, and building a recipe for a cream with the right combination of fats, alkali and other ingredients to not only give you a lather, but a cream that has the right consistency and texture. It's damned hard!
Thanks for all the information, David. This is what I was getting at with the whole coconut oil/shea butter as emollient thing. So, if I'm understanding you correctly, in some cases the fatty acids could be saponified (such as when coconut acid is listed alongside something like sodium hydroxide), but could also be added whole as emollients, yes?
Is tallow ever used as an emollient, rather than as a fat to be saponified as part of a soap base? I was drawing somewhat of a hard-line distinction between tallow, as a soap base, and coconut oil, shea butter, etc., as emollients, but it sounds like the line is somewhat blurrier than that.
Short answer, If an ingredients list doesn't list the saponified ingredients such as "Sodium Stearate, Potassium Stearate" but does list Sodium Hydroxide and or Potassium Hydroxide that means that any oil, fatty acid or fat listed in the ingredients list is fully or partially saponified at random as the saponification process takes place. Adding oil, fatty acid or fats after the process has taken place is possible but unsaponfied oils, fatty acids or fats tend to decrease lathering capabilities. I have collected numerous soapmaking books from the 19th and 20th centuries, done tons of research in cosmetic chemistry books, publications, patent sites here and abroad and have consulted several cosmetic chemists in the process of developing my formulas so I am very familiar with the formulation of these kinds of products, production and the evolution of shaving soap and shaving cream from the very beginning. Very interesting stuff!
Interesting label, but unfortunately does not comply with proper FDA listings. Every element in the product "list" has a plus sign in between it so you don't know exactly where the list begins! Most likely "Water" is the first ingredient but several ingredients in the list do not list themselves by proper INCI names. As an example, "Shea Butter" should be listed as: Butyrospermum Parkii (Shea) Butter and "Coconut Oil" should be listed as "Cocos nucifera (Coconut) oil ". Whether you are a large company or a small artisan business you still have to comply with FDA regulations when making a product like this.
Their website has the ingredients listed with water first and so on down the list. As they appear on the cap label, it looks like a wallet-lure with the necessary ingredient list likely being somewhere on the jar’s label (a guess - it’s not visible on their website’s product shots).
wow, another dead thread resurrected!!
just noticed that my QCS Vostok has tallow in the ingredients list!
just noticed that my QCS Vostok has tallow in the ingredients list!
