Why don't Creams contain tallow like many soaps?

[brucered]

People are always buying soaps because they contain tallow and perform better or are creamier, but I have never heard of a cream that contains Tallow or why they don't need it. People buy creams that contain Shea Butter or other oils and ingredients, but Tallow never comes up.

I've always wondered but a recent Scuttle question about soaps breaking down brought it back up for me. Soaps seem to break down more in scuttles and creams not so much.

I'm hoping one of the resident Soap Making experts can chime in and tell me why that is.

Just wondering.

 

[PhilC]

Good question!

Bruce, what products have you found in your 3017 process really holds up to scuttle heat? I just got one from my son for Christmas and found out my current 3017 project doesn't fare so well.

 

[BSAGuy]

Tallow is a fat and thus solid at room temperature. I think that would make it incongruent with creams, which are not solid.

 

[brucered]

Good question!

Bruce, what products have you found in your 3017 process really holds up to scuttle heat? I just got one from my son for Christmas and found out my current 3017 project doesn't fare so well.

I think the only cream I have found that is not heat friendly so far, is Castle Forbes. But by the time I got around to using mine the consistency had sent from a firm cream to almost a liquid.

GFT Coconut - Friendly
Nancy Boy - Friendly
AOS Cream - Friendly
Proraso Blue - Friendly
RR Moroccan Secret - Friendly
CF Lavender - NOT
RR Mudder Focker - NOT
RR P.160 - Friendly
Haslinger - NOT
Mystic Waters - NOT

Tallow is a fat and thus solid at room temperature. I think that would make it incongruent with creams, which are not solid.

That makes sense. I figured there was a simple explanation.

 

[sarimento1]

used this artisan croap yesterday, chiseled face sherlock. i would say that the consistency is firmer than Proraso but lot looser than Cella.
lists beef tallow prominently in the ingredients. shaves pretty nice, barbershop scent to my nose.
if you want to try, pm and i'd be happy to pif you a sample in a ziplock inside a regular envelope.

 

[brucered]

used this artisan croap yesterday, chiseled face sherlock. i would say that the consistency is firmer than Proraso but lot looser than Cella.
lists beef tallow prominently in the ingredients. shaves pretty nice, barbershop scent to my nose.
if you want to try, pm and i'd be happy to pif you a sample in a ziplock inside a regular envelope.

Thanks for the offer, but no need for a sample. I was just curious about why creams never contain Tallow. Looking online I found a few, so they are made, just not common.

As for yours, I see it's a croap and listed as a soap so Tallow can be expected.

Ingredients given in alphabetical order. The oils are saponfied by both sodium hydroxide and potassium hydroxide.
Liquid Used : Aloe Vera Juice
Oils Used : Castor Oil, Jojoba, Tallow
Other Ingredients Used : Fragrance (optional), Glycerin, Kaolin Clay, Liquid Germall Plus, Raw Silk Fibers, Stearic Acid, Tocopherols

 

[MilfordNJGuy]

Tallow is a fat and thus solid at room temperature. I think that would make it incongruent with creams, which are not solid.

Most shaving creams are made of Stearic Acid which is a high chain fatty acid which give a shaving cream both creaminess and structure. It is quite solid at room temperature and contributes well to make a good shaving cream so your assumption that a fat which is solid at room temperature does not work in making shaving creams is incorrect. Most shaving creams use Sodium and Potassium Hydroxide and the Potassium Hydroxide used with fatty acids like Stearic is what make a shaving cream have creamy lather. Tallow does contain Stearic Acid but not enough to produce the kind of lather required for a good type of shaving cream.

 

[shimsham]

David has led me down a Wiki Wormhole reading about tallow, stearic acid, etc.

* From wikipedia, tallow is ~14% stearic acid. There is twice as much palmitic acid as stearic acid in tallow.

* Regular, non-processed animal fat is up to 30% stearic acid.

* Napalm is a portmonteau of its ingredients: naphthenic acid and palmitic acid.

* The name stearic acid comes from the Greek word στέαρ "stéar", which means "tallow".

I love the internet.

 

[MilfordNJGuy]

Just to confuse you even more, many of the sources of Stearic Acid container various quantities of Palmitic Acid which is a slightly lower chain fatty acid. (100% Stearic Acid is also available). When you make a shaving cream that is mostly or completely made from fatty acids opposed to oils or fats you have more control of the outcome of the product. This is why most of the "British" creams are made that way. I have also chosen that path for my own products. Oils and fats can vary in the percentages of their fatty acid/triglyceride make-up from source to source which is also another reason for going the fatty acid route.

David has led me down a Wiki Wormhole reading about tallow, stearic acid, etc.

* From wikipedia, tallow is ~14% stearic acid. There is twice as much palmitic acid as stearic acid in tallow.

* Regular, non-processed animal fat is up to 30% stearic acid.

* Napalm is a portmonteau of its ingredients: naphthenic acid and palmitic acid.

* The name stearic acid comes from the Greek word στέαρ "stéar", which means "tallow".

I love the internet.

 

[slant81]

People are always buying soaps because they contain tallow and perform better or are creamier, but I have never heard of a cream that contains Tallow or why they don't need it. People buy creams that contain Shea Butter or other oils and ingredients, but Tallow never comes up.

I've always wondered but a recent Scuttle question about soaps breaking down brought it back up for me. Soaps seem to break down more in scuttles and creams not so much.

I'm hoping one of the resident Soap Making experts can chime in and tell me why that is.

Just wondering.

They do, cella is a croap arko I believe is tallow . There are others I've seen for sure

 

[brucered]

They do, cella is a croap arko I believe is tallow . There are others I've seen for sure

I know Croaps do, but Croaps are considered Soap by definition. Soft creams were the ones I was referring to.

 

[Jerry-built Hustler]

I have never heard of a cream that contains Tallow or why they don't need it. People buy creams that contain Shea Butter or other oils and ingredients, but Tallow never comes up.

One thing we should be clear on: when we're talking about "tallow" in a soap (or cream), we're talking about sodium tallowate, which is the saponified form of tallow. Tallow is animal lard, traditionally from beef, but in current industry it can be sourced form any number of animals. We say soap has "tallow" in it as a type of shorthand for saying it includes sodium tallowate in the soap base, but unless it is superfatted, a soap does not have actual tallow (that is to say, unsaponified tallow) in it. Conversely, emollients like shea butter, cocoa butter, coconut oil, etc., are not saponified when used in creams, but are added in their unaltered state to add moisturizing properties to the cream. (Incidentally, this is why creams that include a lot of added emollients don't lather as well as creams that don't have them: soaps* lather, fats don't.)

Therefore, the explanation that tallow is solid at room temperature as the reason for its not being included in creams is not correct. Once tallow is saponified, it does not have the same physical properties it did as a fat, since soap is a salt of a fatty acid, not the fatty acid itself. Moreover, even if unsaponified tallow were added to creams as an emollient, its solid state at room temperature wouldn't be a deal breaker. Coconut oil and shea butter are solid at room temperature, too.

*Creams are soaps**. They are based on saponified fatty acids such as sodium palmitate or sodium stearate (saponified forms of stearic and palmitic acids), which have the bipolarity common to all soaps. It's this bipolarity that creates lather, and gives soaps their cleaning/solvent properties.

**Unless they're not. Some creams do not use a soap base, but they are non-lathering (e.g., Lab Series Maximum Comfort, Clinique Cream Shave), and therefore are truly brushless. If you want lather, you need a soap base.

 

[MilfordNJGuy]

Jerry,

Tallow in either a soap or a cream can be saponified with Sodium Hyroxide or Potassium Hydroxide or TEA. Also, Tallow is fat from cows only and cannot be gotten from any other animal. Lard is pig fat and only pig fat! Shea Butter, Cocoa Butter are usually saponfied and Coconut Oil is saponified to give a soap lather. When used in creams it is saponfied as well for the creamy lather it produces. There may be a small precentage of these ingredients that are used to "superfat" a formula and that is done more often to make sure that all of the base (KOH or NaOH) is completely used up and none remains.

Shaving Creams are often a soap-based product but not always and can be made with surfactants instead. These can be either a lathering cream or a brushless cream. Also, a brushless cream can be soap-based but can be a non-lathering cream as well!

One thing we should be clear on: when we're talking about "tallow" in a soap (or cream), we're talking about sodium tallowate, which is the saponified form of tallow. Tallow is animal lard, traditionally from beef, but in current industry it can be sourced form any number of animals. We say soap has "tallow" in it as a type of shorthand for saying it includes sodium tallowate in the soap base, but unless it is superfatted, a soap does not have actual tallow (that is to say, unsaponified tallow) in it. Conversely, emollients like shea butter, cocoa butter, coconut oil, etc., are not saponified when used in creams, but are added in their unaltered state to add moisturizing properties to the cream. (Incidentally, this is why creams that include a lot of added emollients don't lather as well as creams that don't have them: soaps* lather, fats don't.)

Therefore, the explanation that tallow is solid at room temperature as the reason for its not being included in creams is not correct. Once tallow is saponified, it does not have the same physical properties it did as a fat, since soap is a salt of a fatty acid, not the fatty acid itself. Moreover, even if unsaponified tallow were added to creams as an emollient, its solid state at room temperature wouldn't be a deal breaker. Coconut oil and shea butter are solid at room temperature, too.

*Creams are soaps**. They are based on saponified fatty acids such as sodium palmitate or sodium stearate (saponified forms of stearic and palmitic acids), which have the bipolarity common to all soaps. It's this bipolarity that creates lather, and gives soaps their cleaning/solvent properties.

**Unless they're not. Some creams do not use a soap base, but they are non-lathering (e.g., Lab Series Maximum Comfort, Clinique Cream Shave), and therefore are truly brushless. If you want lather, you need a soap base.

 

[brucered]

Now I'm completely lost, but that's OK and I'm learning as I go.

Tallow vs Lard vs Saponified or Unsaponified aside, there are thread and poll after thread and poll on "tallow" soaps and tallow snobs, but no one ever talks about this cream or that cream containing a certain ingredient.

There are people who will only use Tallow Soaps and don't like Veggie based one. But I have never seen anyone say "I only use X soaps as they contain Y ingredient".

 

[bythbook]

After reading all of this I'm not sure if I'm grossed out (nah) or hungry! (yah)

umm... Lard! Tallow!

Anyway - are Queen Charlotte's shaving creams creams or soaps (or croaps)? Matt's "creams" are tallowicious, certainly ...but are they "creams" since they don't come in a tube?

 

[brucered]

After reading all of this I'm not sure if I'm grossed out (nah) or hungry! (yah)

umm... Lard! Tallow!

Anyway - are Queen Charlotte's shaving creams creams or soaps (or croaps)? Matt's "creams" are tallowicious, certainly ...but are they "creams" since they don't come in a tube?

My undersanding is they were his original "soaps". When people wanted a hard puck, they made them and then started calling the softer ones cream.

Many creams come in a tub.

 

[bythbook]

My undersanding is they were his original "soaps". When people wanted a hard puck, they made them and then started calling the softer ones cream.

Many creams come in a tub.

ah - QCS: once soaps, demoted to creams! Yes, of course many creams come in tubs - many creams that come in tubs also come in tubes (add an 'e') - but not QCS. Anyway....

I assume you've looked far & wide to find a SC with tallow - and haven't. (I haven't either.)

There are creams with lanolin (not the same thing as tallow) - but not with tallow (or none that we've identified).

I don't think the soapers have answered the original question -

...and now I want to know!

 

[MilfordNJGuy]

Most shaving creams are made of Stearic Acid which is a high chain fatty acid which give a shaving cream both creaminess and structure. It is quite solid at room temperature and contributes well to make a good shaving cream so your assumption that a fat which is solid at room temperature does not work in making shaving creams is incorrect. Most shaving creams use Sodium and Potassium Hydroxide and the Potassium Hydroxide used with fatty acids like Stearic is what make a shaving cream have creamy lather. Tallow does contain Stearic Acid but not enough to produce the kind of lather required for a good type of shaving cream.

"I don't think the soapers have answered the original question -

...and now I want to know!"

What else do you want to know?

 

[bythbook]

Hey David!

From your quotation it seems that you perceive a difference in the lather derived from shaving creams and that derived from tallow-containing shaving soaps - creams have "creamy lather" but tallowiscious soaps don't?

Do soaps without tallow have creamy lather?

I'm getting confuseder, I think.

 

[brucered]

Do soaps without tallow have creamy lather?

To me, a good soap does not need tallow to perform. I am guessing if you took tallow out of a current good soap, it would need something else to make up for that ingredient.

Heck, I couldn't even tell if you if some of the soaps I've used like Panna, LaToja, Scritchnscrub homemade and others even contain tallow or not. I'm not a vegetarian or vegan, so I don't care if tallow is in a soap or not.