Why do some folks tape the spine when honing?

[Slash McCoy]

Slash, that was a great response. I have all the info I need, thanks to you. Except one question: What should I use to lap my stones?

Sandpaper, glued carefully to a 12 x 12 polished marble floor tile or a granite countertop sink cutout or a 12 x 12 plate of 3/4" acrylic or something else at least as flat as these. Don't use "flattening stones" which themselves need to be flat, and which are no bigger than the stone being lapped in most cases. You want to minimize overrun for best results. The sandpaper must be applied tight and smooth, no lint or dust or hair or bubbles under it. I use usually 220 to 320 grit wet/dry initially and then when the grid is nearly gone, I move up to 600 grit. Then I hone a stainless steel chef knife on the newly lapped stone to break down the surface a bit. This is optional with synthetics. Mandatory with arkies or other super hard naturals.

Some guys use glass and abrasive powders. The glass needs to be resting on a flat surface because it flexes. And the glass needs to be replaced often. However it does work. For me, sandpaper is just too simple and convenient.

There is lapping for cleaning and restoring the surface, and there is lapping to ensure a high degree of flatness. The former can be accomplished by rubbing the stone against another stone of not too dissimilar grit, under running water. If you stone loads up with swarf, for instance, you can give it a brisk rub on the next finer or coarser one and carry on as before. The Naniwa SuperStone 3k is notorious for loading up with swarf, and I often give it a rub on the 1k or the 8k between razors. Some guys like to use three stones in a round robin scheme to flatten, but it won't work as well as the sandpaper or the glass and powder.

You can also get a calibrated and certified granite lapping plate, and these are not as expensive as you would expect. Top the plate with sandpaper or lapping film to flatten most anything to a very high degree of flatness.

 

[Slash McCoy]

Slash, why the (potential) overlap with the 1k Chosera and SS? Is there something the 1k SS does better than the Chosera?


Eastcoast, I always have to pitch in my affinity for DMT's... but others seem to have difficulty with the 8k. It requires a bit of a sense for feedback and pressure and regular cleaning. That said, once you get into the habit of using one and cleaning it when it needs it: DMT 325, 1200, 8000 and a finisher are the only hones I'd ever need to hone a razor... to the point that even if I HAD access to every other hone in existence that I've had the opportunity to try, I'd still never use anything else. It's been nice in that I get to spend all my money, time and attention on finishers; and the beveling up to the finisher is as close to automatic as possible.

The 325 is also capable of lapping stones if you keep it wet and prevent stiction/locking to the stone and potentially stripping diamonds; and the back of the 8k (or any Diasharp model, vs duosharp which are two sided) makes a good flat surface for film or sandpaper.

I find the SuperStone gives a nicer edge, never any chips. The Chosera cuts really fast, but occasionally it will go to chip city on me. The chips are very small and the SS smooths them out nicely. You can drop one or the other, the choice being a matter of preference. True Blue, or Green Brick, I like to have both on hand. My SS got a LOT of heavy use before I sprang for the Chosera, even though I often use sandpaper for bevel setting. It was getting so thin that I was considering gluing it to a piece of granite or acrylic. I also have a 1k Norton. I am on record as a Norton hater, because quality sank so low when they moved production to Mexico, but this one has a very consistent matrix and seems to be not much below historical quality. It does seem a lot coarser than a 1k ought to be, even allowing for the different grit scales. Seems coarser than my 600 Japanese synthetics. But it cuts very very fast, and stays flat a lot longer than any other coarse stone I have. Maybe this is just a fluke? I don't know. But someone might want to take a chance on the Norton 1k, but still need the SS 1k to smooth out the bevel set on the Norton. The SS is a fairly soft stone and wears quickly, though not as fast as super soft stones like the King or Bear Moo or similar. So it is maybe not the best for the heavy lifting, but it leaves a very nice surface on a fresh bevel.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Any sense of what is causing the chips in the chosera? Does it have bigger pieces of grit than the SS, does it tend to tear razors if you're cutting them too aggressively? I've heard one or two others say they prefer the Chos 2000 or shapton 1500 to the Chos 1000 or just didn't get along with the Chosera 1000, but I know other guys who love the thing.


Lol the king... I had that 600 Brick (like 8x3x3) from king for awhile. I'd dish the thing on a single heavy razor and still not have a bevel set. I sympathize with the users of that stone.

 

[Slash McCoy]

Any sense of what is causing the chips in the chosera? Does it have bigger pieces of grit than the SS, does it tend to tear razors if you're cutting them too aggressively? I've heard one or two others say they prefer the Chos 2000 or shapton 1500 to the Chos 1000 or just didn't get along with the Chosera 1000, but I know other guys who love the thing.


Lol the king... I had that 600 Brick (like 8x3x3) from king for awhile. I'd dish the thing on a single heavy razor and still not have a bevel set. I sympathize with the users of that stone.

Don't know. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. I haven't really made a study of it. I have the 1k Chosera and a 600, but no finer ones. I generally raise a burr on the 600 but not on the entire edge, then move up to the 1k where I go some more and extend the burr nearly to the ends, then go to the SS and just hone normally. The Chosera doesn't see any light pressure from me. It is my heavy equipment. I typically use pressure equivelant to the weight of my whole arm, on those rocks. No doubt light pressure, the weight of the hand or less, would result in less chipping, but that's not what those stones are for. I am not going to fiddle around for an hour just setting a bevel when I can do it in 5 or 10 minutes. And I would assume that most honers would take the same approach.

Ordinary laps with moderate to heavy pressure do give me chipping that is very obvious under magnification. The same, on the SS, gives a nice looking bevel.

 

[Eastcoast30]

Sandpaper, glued carefully to a 12 x 12 polished marble floor tile or a granite countertop sink cutout or a 12 x 12 plate of 3/4" acrylic or something else at least as flat as these. Don't use "flattening stones" which themselves need to be flat, and which are no bigger than the stone being lapped in most cases. You want to minimize overrun for best results. The sandpaper must be applied tight and smooth, no lint or dust or hair or bubbles under it. I use usually 220 to 320 grit wet/dry initially and then when the grid is nearly gone, I move up to 600 grit. Then I hone a stainless steel chef knife on the newly lapped stone to break down the surface a bit. This is optional with synthetics. Mandatory with arkies or other super hard naturals.

Some guys use glass and abrasive powders. The glass needs to be resting on a flat surface because it flexes. And the glass needs to be replaced often. However it does work. For me, sandpaper is just too simple and convenient.

There is lapping for cleaning and restoring the surface, and there is lapping to ensure a high degree of flatness. The former can be accomplished by rubbing the stone against another stone of not too dissimilar grit, under running water. If you stone loads up with swarf, for instance, you can give it a brisk rub on the next finer or coarser one and carry on as before. The Naniwa SuperStone 3k is notorious for loading up with swarf, and I often give it a rub on the 1k or the 8k between razors. Some guys like to use three stones in a round robin scheme to flatten, but it won't work as well as the sandpaper or the glass and powder.

You can also get a calibrated and certified granite lapping plate, and these are not as expensive as you would expect. Top the plate with sandpaper or lapping film to flatten most anything to a very high degree of flatness.

More great info, thanks. I have some new floor tiles that will work great with sandpaper. I watched your shaving video and picked up a cheap gold dollar. I will practice setting a bevel with my floor tile and some wet dry papers. Great advice and makes a lot of sense. And I will experiment flattening stones with that setup.

 

[global_dev]

I might add that “tape” ranges from outdoor duct tape to 3m varieties to kapton. All with different qualities and thicknesses.

i tape some razors and not others. I keep a log. Very easy to check and update.

 

[Gamma]

At this point in history, I don't think you could pay me to hone on Naniwa Super Stones. Way too much warping going on in their sector, and that's with both the thin and thicker versions. Hard Pass here.
Chosera, now "Professional' stones were great, esp the 1k & 3k. Never loved the 5k but it's ok, and there is no 8k. The 600 is a pointless dog imo, the 400x is a killer slab that shames it easily. Hidden gem is the 800x. Never ever had a chipped edge on a 1k C but I don't hone Corona blades too often.
Thing is though, Choseras started crazing and cracking all over town, then so did the Pro versions. Another Hard Pass.
Some will say - "My Chosera stones never crazed/cracked" - well, many thousands of people had cracked stones and Naniwa went so far as to reformulate to to help control the problem. So, while not every Chosera cracked, more than enough of them did.

Shapton Pros are my top dogs. Glass Stones are dumb in a couple of ways but good or great in others; they're my second go-to.
The Nanis I have now are Jyunpaku, my fave 8k. a Gouken Arata 1k, and a terminally not-flat 20mm 12k SS. Those last 2 are for knives now.

 

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

Some tape the spine because it’s a custom razor made just for them and they want to keep it pristine. Plenty will argue that razors are just shaving tools but priceless gifts might want to be used and protected at the same time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[MaritimeFanatic]

Lots of good information on this thread! When wading into the deep waters that is straight razor honing, I bought the warnings that I would bloody well ruin my razors if I didn't tape the spines. It never seemed all that logical to me, however, since stones will assuredly wear the tape down faster than the steel. Consequently I swapped out tape after ever hone and often multiple times on the same one to make sure that the razor was making true contact. It worked, and worked well this way so I didn't question it too much. Years later, I regret this.....I have wanted to go back and set them all back to the *pure* method but with 20-something razors and a bad memory I have always felt that to do this I'd have to take on the whole kit and kaboodle at once. Subsequently I haven't done it.....

 

[Slash McCoy]

@MaritimeFanatic are you a seaman? Retired SIU Bosun here.

<EDIT> Oops meant to PM that. Sorry for the hijack.

 

[Eastcoast30]

I work with a bunch of seaman - it's cool!

 

[Gamma]

Forgot to mention tape, lol. Yeah, well, it doesn't really matter, tape or no tape, do whatcha want. The practical sharpness difference between a blade honed on 1 layer of tape, or none, is, the large majority of the time, nil. Nada. Zippo. Naught. Sure, in theory, a thinner EW is 'sharper' but like I tell people - once the blade shaves the hair effortlessly, making it 'sharper' has no effect. It won't cut that hair 'better'. At that point, we enter the world of chasing diminishing returns.

Many self-proclaimed poobahs of this community have ego and control problems; over the years their opinions became 'law' in their eyes and they can't let go. It's all so dumb.
It's honing, it's just tape, they're just razors, it's just shaving.
We are taking hair off our faces, not saving the free world from alien invaders.
Be happy, hone how you want to.

That said - I hate honing on tape because it's a pita. I do use it though. As mentioned above, protecting spine work, limiting the ugly-ness factor, and heavy grinds can be much easier to hone with tape on the spine. If I have a blade that is way out, I'll hone on tape to set the bevel and then repeat without tape. Saves unnecessary wear, the correction is very fast. As I mentioned, 1 degree is, generally speaking, for most people, an imperceptible change. That is, until we get up to 18-19 deg or so. Then we enter 'fat bevel' land and things change. Most blades are not there though. And it takes more honing than most will do to a single blade to get there from 16-ish deg. And if it does go there, then taping the edge and flattening the spine on a diamond plate is a fairly common exercise. Or I toss it and move on, depends on the blade.

Note - If I am honing one blade repeatedly for testing stones or abrasives (often) then I have to be aware and adjust accordingly. I will usually not tape those blades. If I do, then I swap them out after a few sessions or I correct without tape.

Old wive's tales aside, tape really isn't a demon or a problem or the great solution to ugly spine wear. It's a tool to be used appropriately and when/if someone wants to.
There is no graveyard of 'dead' razors that won't shave because someone used tape on them. Everyone does not need to use tape either.

 

[Eastcoast30]

Forgot to mention tape, lol. Yeah, well, it doesn't really matter, tape or no tape, do whatcha want. The practical sharpness difference between a blade honed on 1 layer of tape, or none, is, the large majority of the time, nil. Nada. Zippo. Naught. Sure, in theory, a thinner EW is 'sharper' but like I tell people - once the blade shaves the hair effortlessly, making it 'sharper' has no effect. It won't cut that hair 'better'. At that point, we enter the world of chasing diminishing returns.

Many self-proclaimed poobahs of this community have ego and control problems; over the years their opinions became 'law' in their eyes and they can't let go. It's all so dumb.
It's honing, it's just tape, they're just razors, it's just shaving.
We are taking hair off our faces, not saving the free world from alien invaders.
Be happy, hone how you want to.

That said - I hate honing on tape because it's a pita. I do use it though. As mentioned above, protecting spine work, limiting the ugly-ness factor, and heavy grinds can be much easier to hone with tape on the spine. If I have a blade that is way out, I'll hone on tape to set the bevel and then repeat without tape. Saves unnecessary wear, the correction is very fast. As I mentioned, 1 degree is, generally speaking, for most people, an imperceptible change. That is, until we get up to 18-19 deg or so. Then we enter 'fat bevel' land and things change. Most blades are not there though. And it takes more honing than most will do to a single blade to get there from 16-ish deg. And if it does go there, then taping the edge and flattening the spine on a diamond plate is a fairly common exercise. Or I toss it and move on, depends on the blade.

Note - If I am honing one blade repeatedly for testing stones or abrasives (often) then I have to be aware and adjust accordingly. I will usually not tape those blades. If I do, then I swap them out after a few sessions or I correct without tape.

Old wive's tales aside, tape really isn't a demon or a problem or the great solution to ugly spine wear. It's a tool to be used appropriately and when/if someone wants to.
There is no graveyard of 'dead' razors that won't shave because someone used tape on them. Everyone does not need to use tape either.

I agree with you, especially if the tape is thin. But I suspect that thin tape will wear quickly and that will be a PITA. And there does come a point where the emphasis is on sharpening and no longer on shaving. I do find that sharpening can be relaxing or calming and there is satisfaction in producing something useful without going to a store to buy it. But one must realize that razors are meant to be used and used up (unless you are a collector).

 

[global_dev]

But I suspect that thin tape will wear quickly and that will be a PITA.

not really, once you are past the 1k, its pretty negligible ime.

 

[Eastcoast30]

I'm glad I started this thread; the information and viewpoints have been great. And quite a few topics have been covered. I've caught the bug and I'm in the process of buying stones. If a moderator feels it proper, I can start different threads for these topics. But the interaction and progression of topics here has been very useful to me. A woodworker friend is sending me a bunch of stones, which I will flatten. I'm told to use sandpaper screens as opposed to sandpaper for flattening. And the stones go up to 8k. So this will save me a bunch of money. But I still ned to decide on a 12k, possibly also a 10k. And this is where it gets confusing. I was going to get Naniwa super stones, then heard that they crack. Right now it's between Naniwa and Shapton. And I'm thinking of a balsa diamond paste strop. Any insights would be appreciated.

 

[global_dev]

was going to get Naniwa super stones, then heard that they crack. Right now it's between Naniwa and Shapton. And I'm thinking of a balsa diamond paste strop. Any insights would be appreciated.

i think its the older choseras that craze, i think the new ones may be called pros. dont know of the new recipes fixed it, but haven't heard much lately about it.

if i understand the superstones in the thinner formats may have warping issues or something like that.

balsa diamond strops have great feedback from those who use them.

i dont think you can really go wrong with any of the kit until you refine what you like about stone feedback and the resulting shave.

there is also some discourse on what really causes super high polishing issues like “fallout” or chipping or edge failure from wire edge or things like that.

 

[Slash McCoy]

I'm glad I started this thread; the information and viewpoints have been great. And quite a few topics have been covered. I've caught the bug and I'm in the process of buying stones. If a moderator feels it proper, I can start different threads for these topics. But the interaction and progression of topics here has been very useful to me. A woodworker friend is sending me a bunch of stones, which I will flatten. I'm told to use sandpaper screens as opposed to sandpaper for flattening. And the stones go up to 8k. So this will save me a bunch of money. But I still ned to decide on a 12k, possibly also a 10k. And this is where it gets confusing. I was going to get Naniwa super stones, then heard that they crack. Right now it's between Naniwa and Shapton. And I'm thinking of a balsa diamond paste strop. Any insights would be appreciated.

No cracks in mine. Only issue I have is the pink 3k SS loads up with swarf quickly and needs a quick touchup lapping on another stone after two or three razors. I like both the SS and the Chosera stones that I have used. YMMV. I even dropped my 12k onto a concrete shop floor and just knocked a big chip off the corner. I was breathless with horror and just KNEW it would be in multiple pieces, but there it was, still snow white and wreck tangular. That doesn't guarantee that you will get the same level of performance, of course, and Gamma seems to have had little but trouble with them. Others like them. IYAM you do not need both a 10k and a 12k. One or the other. If you go with the 10k and you want to use just stones, consider a Shap 16k to finish on. Or bite the bullet and use 1u film for a finisher.

You don't want just one balsa strop. You need three. See the pasted balsa strop thread. .5u diamond on balsa gives an edge that is no more gentle than the 1u film or the 12k synthetics, and no sharper than what you get from CrOx. .25u is too fine after the mentioned finishers, and it leaves a harsh edge. .1u leaves a very very very sharp but still smooth edge, but you will wear that sucker out trying to max it out, coming from 12k. It is, after all, nominally 200,000 grit. So all three are needed.

I think someone should touch on naturals, even though they are generally not recommended for beginners. Naturals can be fun, interesting, even exciting if you are a real honing nerd. When you jump down that rabbit hole, it is a whole different world. While I do NOT think you should get into naturals at this time and I do NOT specifically recommend them even after you gain some experience, you probably should educate yourself on them. Look up the threads on Thuringians, Charnleys, slates, Arkies, Coticules, Jnats, etc as you find time to read. And let me say this... most guys, once they have bought their first several naturals, are lost forever. They never come back, it seems. I have tried Arkies, Coticules, and a Jnat. None of them really captivated me. Maybe I am just not one of the 144,000 chosen ones, I don't know. Synthetics and film and balsa/diamond give me a better edge than any I have ever experienced, whether honed by me or by others. OTOH, the best Jnat edge I ever shaved with, was much nicer than the average 12k edge. And slurried naturals can replace two or even three stages of a synthetic progression, making the relatively high cost, effectively not so high.

 

[Eastcoast30]

No cracks in mine. Only issue I have is the pink 3k SS loads up with swarf quickly and needs a quick touchup lapping on another stone after two or three razors. I like both the SS and the Chosera stones that I have used. YMMV. I even dropped my 12k onto a concrete shop floor and just knocked a big chip off the corner. I was breathless with horror and just KNEW it would be in multiple pieces, but there it was, still snow white and wreck tangular. That doesn't guarantee that you will get the same level of performance, of course, and Gamma seems to have had little but trouble with them. Others like them. IYAM you do not need both a 10k and a 12k. One or the other. If you go with the 10k and you want to use just stones, consider a Shap 16k to finish on. Or bite the bullet and use 1u film for a finisher.

You don't want just one balsa strop. You need three. See the pasted balsa strop thread. .5u diamond on balsa gives an edge that is no more gentle than the 1u film or the 12k synthetics, and no sharper than what you get from CrOx. .25u is too fine after the mentioned finishers, and it leaves a harsh edge. .1u leaves a very very very sharp but still smooth edge, but you will wear that sucker out trying to max it out, coming from 12k. It is, after all, nominally 200,000 grit. So all three are needed.

I think someone should touch on naturals, even though they are generally not recommended for beginners. Naturals can be fun, interesting, even exciting if you are a real honing nerd. When you jump down that rabbit hole, it is a whole different world. While I do NOT think you should get into naturals at this time and I do NOT specifically recommend them even after you gain some experience, you probably should educate yourself on them. Look up the threads on Thuringians, Charnleys, slates, Arkies, Coticules, Jnats, etc as you find time to read. And let me say this... most guys, once they have bought their first several naturals, are lost forever. They never come back, it seems. I have tried Arkies, Coticules, and a Jnat. None of them really captivated me. Maybe I am just not one of the 144,000 chosen ones, I don't know. Synthetics and film and balsa/diamond give me a better edge than any I have ever experienced, whether honed by me or by others. OTOH, the best Jnat edge I ever shaved with, was much nicer than the average 12k edge. And slurried naturals can replace two or even three stages of a synthetic progression, making the relatively high cost, effectively not so high.

Thank you, much appreciated.

 

[Eastcoast30]

Just received my Gold Dollar from amazon - and I don't think it is a gold dollar. The handle is not branded and there is no marking on the tang. And the blade has no logo. The box is strange as well. Should I send it back? See attached pictures. Something is not right here.

 

[Eastcoast30]

If you zoom in, you can see the tip has excessive honing. Would have been better if they did nothing.