Why do some folks tape the spine when honing?

[Eastcoast30]

I don't understand this practice. By taping the spine, you are raising it and thereby decreasing the bevel angle. I guess I cab see doing this if your razor is such that the bevel is too steep and folds over easily. Then you would have to strop mid-shave.

But other than that, I don't understand why one would tape. You want the spine to wear in tandem with the edge, so that you have a consistent bevel over time. Any thoughts on this?

 

[Slash McCoy]

Actually it increases the bevel angle. Both immediately, due to the spine being raised, and cumulatively, due to wear being halted at the spine while the edge continues to wear away when the razor is honed.

There are a lot of reasons given, why some use tape. On a certain other forum, the prevailing dogma is that noobs put lots of pressure on the spine and wear it down paper thin in a couple of honing sessions, and so they should always without fail tape the spine or risk eternal damnation to honing hell. Some want to "protect" the spine from wear, for cosmetic reasons. Some say that any wear to the spine is damage. Some own shares of 3M. Some listen to too many egotistical gurus who claim that not taping amounts to honing malpractice.

There are situations where taping the spine is simply the right thing to do. Whether you want to ALWAYS tape, is your decision. I don't.

 

[Eastcoast30]

You are right, I misspoke. Taping INCREASES the angle, and DECREASES the sharpness. I agree with your decision to not tape. One who consistently tapes will effectively be dulling his blade each time he hones.

 

[Tomo]

There are some situations where it can be beneficial. When honing a true wedge, taping the spine allows you to make better contact with the edge. There is also the coticule unicot method. This method purposely puts a double bevel on the edge which concentrates the cutting effort on a smaller surface area and compensates for a slow cutting stone.

I personally never use tape because I like the spine to wear in tandem with the edge. I accept that razors are slowly used up as you use them.

 

[Eastcoast30]

Interesting, thanks for that.

 

[LJS]

I don’t tape often at all, but there are cases that require it and some where it makes sense. Wedges as mentioned - you just can’t get to that edge if you don’t. Decorative spines and custom razors some times require protection. Some frame backs have brass tubes and you if don’t tape that they will be gone long before steel. There are good reasons like these with even new razors that may warrant tape.

Most of the time when I tape one is because it is a razor I am taking a chip out of the edge, ones that I ground a new edge for some repair-purpose, and other heavy grinding. And once I set a bevel with heavy grinding, I take the tape off and reset the bevel and hone as usual. Just no need to eat the spine out.

What I don’t do is tape to hone wonky grinds, warped blades, poorly-honed, etc. Tape can be used as a crutch or cheat to get an edge on a razor that either needs work or needs to be thrown away. It can be done and works but I just don’t want those razors around.

 

[Sinnbad11]

I have some older razors excess spine pressure was used on. Their angle sits around 14.8 degrees, I find that steep of an angle a bit harsh. Taping the spine one layer makes that about 15.8, which is a much nicer angle. Eventually I'll wear away enough blade that I will need to stop but until then I will continue with the taping.

 

[ajduplessis]

Same reason folks by SUV and pickups but never leave tarmac surfaces, not fully taking advantage of the design...

 

[Chandu]

I personally never use tape because I like the spine to wear in tandem with the edge. I accept that razors are slowly used up as you use them.

Makes sense to me.

 

[Eastcoast30]

I appreciate the responsiveness found here on this forum. I have a new straight and it is shave ready. But when it comes time to hone, I want to do it myself. So I am going to buy a few beaters from eBay to practice on. I'm thinking of Naniwa super stones. And here is where the research really begins: Naniwa, Shapton, Jnats ... Then there is the range of grits to define: 8k, 10k, 12k or 5k, 8k, 12k. It would be great to have all the grits, but that's too expensive. I will probably start a new thread for this.

 

[Sinnbad11]

I appreciate the responsiveness found here on this forum. I have a new straight and it is shave ready. But when it comes time to hone, I want to do it myself. So I am going to buy a few beaters from eBay to practice on. I'm thinking of Naniwa super stones. And here is where the research really begins: Naniwa, Shapton, Jnats ... Then there is the range of grits to define: 8k, 10k, 12k or 5k, 8k, 12k. It would be great to have all the grits, but that's too expensive. I will probably start a new thread for this.

Half the fun of straight razors are exploring hones. I have 7 different finishers myself. I have been successfully resisting purchasing more for now...

 

[Slash McCoy]

I appreciate the responsiveness found here on this forum. I have a new straight and it is shave ready. But when it comes time to hone, I want to do it myself. So I am going to buy a few beaters from eBay to practice on. I'm thinking of Naniwa super stones. And here is where the research really begins: Naniwa, Shapton, Jnats ... Then there is the range of grits to define: 8k, 10k, 12k or 5k, 8k, 12k. It would be great to have all the grits, but that's too expensive. I will probably start a new thread for this.

You would do just fine with Naniwa Superstones in 12k, 8k, and 3k, and a Chosera 1k and a 320 Shapton Kuromaku and maybe maybe maybe add a 600 Chosera and Superstone 1k as funds allow. You need a good 1k general bevel setter. You need a 12k finisher. You need a couple of intermediate stones in between. You need at least one coarse stone for serious steel removal and correction. However the coarse work and even the bevel setting can be done with sandpaper on a 3/4" or 1" thick Acrylic plate from TAP Plastics. I suggest 3" wide and 12" long. Use the same plate for lapping film whenever you want to give it a try. Unless you do a LOT of razor rescues or buy a lot of new razors, your finisher will be used a LOT, and the other stones seldom. The place to save money then, is on the coarse hones, and that's where the sandpaper makes a lot of sense for the casual honer. You can get sandpaper up to 2500 grit. You can go a lot coarser than you will ever want to go. And the cost for a one-use coarse, very flat hone with lots of real estate? A third of a sheet of sandpaper and a spritz of spray adhesive. You could go straight up from 2000 or 2500 grit to 8k Naniwa in a pinch. So only two premium stones to buy. Don't try to go cheap on the finisher.

I said don't go cheap on the finisher, but actually you can. With lapping film. You can go from 2k sandpaper to 9u, 3u, and 1u film. The plate stays flat... never needs lapping. You will save a bunch of money on the intermediate grits this way. Not as much on the finisher, since you will use it so much, but some, yeah. Remember, you are also putting a lot of wear on the finishing stone. And lapping it.

Between Naniwa, Shapton, and Jnats, Naniwa probably represents the best bang for the buck for you. Once you know how to use it, some Jnats partnered with some Naguras will give you an edge as sharp as the 12k but more comfortable. Once you know how to use it. And pick out the right one in the first place. And sometimes you find a really good deal. IF you know what you are doing. It takes a while to master the Jnats, though. The SuperStones are pretty quick to learn.

No matter what you use, if you can get your edge up to the level of a 12k edge, you can improve it further with the balsa. Once you have ran through the balsa progression, there will be no difference between edges from the various stones or film. A diamond on balsa edge, done according to The Method, is very kind to the face while still being super sharp. BUT you need to be able to create that base edge, or the balsa will accomplish nothing. Just like you need to be able to create a good bevel, before running a progression of stones or films.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Slash, why the (potential) overlap with the 1k Chosera and SS? Is there something the 1k SS does better than the Chosera?


Eastcoast, I always have to pitch in my affinity for DMT's... but others seem to have difficulty with the 8k. It requires a bit of a sense for feedback and pressure and regular cleaning. That said, once you get into the habit of using one and cleaning it when it needs it: DMT 325, 1200, 8000 and a finisher are the only hones I'd ever need to hone a razor... to the point that even if I HAD access to every other hone in existence that I've had the opportunity to try, I'd still never use anything else. It's been nice in that I get to spend all my money, time and attention on finishers; and the beveling up to the finisher is as close to automatic as possible.

The 325 is also capable of lapping stones if you keep it wet and prevent stiction/locking to the stone and potentially stripping diamonds; and the back of the 8k (or any Diasharp model, vs duosharp which are two sided) makes a good flat surface for film or sandpaper.

 

[Eastcoast30]

Slash, that was a great response. I have all the info I need, thanks to you. Except one question: What should I use to lap my stones?

 

[Eastcoast30]

I always liked DMT for my knives.

 

[Sinnbad11]

Dmts are fine if you have one large enough. My favorite is the atoma 400.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Yeah Atoma's are the favored ones now, I suspect because Atoma says up to their 1200 is fine for lapping stones and DMT said only up to 325 (then they released a plate specifically for lapping and only recommend it now). Apparently Atoma also don't clog as much while lapping because of their diamond pattern. Just to keep stones flat sandpaper and a true surface works fine... but the diamond plate is a worthwhile investment in my opinion. Makes everything much more straightforward.

 

[Slash McCoy]

You are right, I misspoke. Taping INCREASES the angle, and DECREASES the sharpness. I agree with your decision to not tape. One who consistently tapes will effectively be dulling his blade each time he hones.

There is a loss of potential sharpness, in most cases, but let me qualify that a bit. There are so many factors besides bevel angle that affect how sharp your edge will be, that within reason, it isn't always a terribly overwhelming issue. And there is such a thing as a bevel angle that is too acute. If you get in the sweet spot which for most razors is around 16 to 17 degrees, well, that is about optimum, but too acute is even worse than too obtuse. A too skinny bevel angle results in a weak edge or an edge that topples before it peaks up on the hone, but within reason, a fat bevel (within reason) can still shave if every other factor is optimized. A stock Gold Dollar 66 has a bevel angle of about 18 degrees or a bit more. However if you saw my GD shave video, full furry beard removal and all, I think you will agree that the razor was sharp, sharper than the average vintage razor edge. And yet the bevel angle is not even close to optimum. So, the tape honer isn't exactly dulling his blade when he hones it, necessarily. He does impact the POTENTIAL sharpness, unless tape is called for due to an acute natural bevel angle. Sad to say, but a lot of guys never notice the difference because they simply don't push the limits of the blade when they hone. So yeah, taping is "bad". I only do it when it is needed. But in reality, the effect may not be all that noticeable for a long time. Depends on the honer, the razor, and the user.

My biggest issue with taped honing is you can pretty much forget about getting optimum results from the pasted balsa progression if the razor was honed with tape. Users of the pasted balsa as per The Method are still very much the minority, though.

 

[Eastcoast30]

I have heard that some use the Atoma 400 for lapping stones. Would that be a good choice for the Naniwas?

 

[Eastcoast30]

There is a loss of potential sharpness, in most cases, but let me qualify that a bit. There are so many factors besides bevel angle that affect how sharp your edge will be, that within reason, it isn't always a terribly overwhelming issue. And there is such a thing as a bevel angle that is too acute. If you get in the sweet spot which for most razors is around 16 to 17 degrees, well, that is about optimum, but too acute is even worse than too obtuse. A too skinny bevel angle results in a weak edge or an edge that topples before it peaks up on the hone, but within reason, a fat bevel (within reason) can still shave if every other factor is optimized. A stock Gold Dollar 66 has a bevel angle of about 18 degrees or a bit more. However if you saw my GD shave video, full furry beard removal and all, I think you will agree that the razor was sharp, sharper than the average vintage razor edge. And yet the bevel angle is not even close to optimum. So, the tape honer isn't exactly dulling his blade when he hones it, necessarily. He does impact the POTENTIAL sharpness, unless tape is called for due to an acute natural bevel angle. Sad to say, but a lot of guys never notice the difference because they simply don't push the limits of the blade when they hone. So yeah, taping is "bad". I only do it when it is needed. But in reality, the effect may not be all that noticeable for a long time. Depends on the honer, the razor, and the user.

My biggest issue with taped honing is you can pretty much forget about getting optimum results from the pasted balsa progression if the razor was honed with tape. Users of the pasted balsa as per The Method are still very much the minority, though.

I hear you. I always went with 20 to 22 degrees on my knives. They were still sharp enough, but the greater angle allowed them to stay sharp longer through work.