So here lately I’ve been doing a good deal of experimenting going from bevel set straight over to a finishing stone option often without slurry. I’ve had the best results with certain synthetic stones and most of my natural stones with the exception of my black or translucent Arkansas stones which are very unforgiving to such a large jump. Does anyone else regularly experiment with this method and are any of you using any special techniques to make the jump?Thanks
Who’s going from bevel set straight to your finishing stone?
- Thread starter lightfoot
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There is a guy (bloke as they say) in the UK who does it (edge dynamics). He goes from a 1k to a hard JNAT. He finishes with only about 15 strokes.
He claims he has an outstanding JNAT. There might be other things going on though i suspect
I have been interested in knowing if you somehow can preserve some of the deeper scratches and still have a smooth edge after the finisher.
Working for a long time, constantly to some degree flexing the edge might lead to some strain hardening and brittleness. You might end up with a "healthyer", and more rebust edge. Who knows.
Share you findings please.
He claims he has an outstanding JNAT. There might be other things going on though i suspect
I have been interested in knowing if you somehow can preserve some of the deeper scratches and still have a smooth edge after the finisher.
Working for a long time, constantly to some degree flexing the edge might lead to some strain hardening and brittleness. You might end up with a "healthyer", and more rebust edge. Who knows.
Share you findings please.
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With a coticule it might all be the one stone…
Or I might set a bevel, dilucot, and then maybe finish on something different, depending on what I am into at the time.
if the razor is problematic I might beat it with a dmt first, but if it is in good shape I could LPB it from start to finish, if I wanted.
Or I might set a bevel, dilucot, and then maybe finish on something different, depending on what I am into at the time.
if the razor is problematic I might beat it with a dmt first, but if it is in good shape I could LPB it from start to finish, if I wanted.
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As far as scratches at bevel set still being present after finishing I’ve had mixed results. On the one hand they are completely gone if I finish on most of my stones although you might find a rogue scratch here and there. But I have one particular stone (a hard Coticule) that leaves some of its own scratches and it’s really hard to tell if it’s from the finisher or if it’s left over from Bevel set. Either way the shaves have been rather good. I do use an unusual amount of spine-leading strokes on a natural finishing stone more often than not when making this particular jump. Maybe just superstition…There is a guy (bloke as they say) in the UK who does it (edge dynamics). He goes from a 1k to a hard JNAT. He finishes with only about 15 strokes.
He claims he has an outstanding JNAT. There might be other things going on though i suspect
I have been interested in knowing if you somehow can preserve some of the deeper scratches and still have a smooth edge after the finisher.
Working for a long time, constantly to some degree flexing the edge might lead to some strain hardening and brittleness. You might end up with a "healthyer", and more rebust edge. Who knows.
Share you findings please.
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The only stone(s) I do that with is a Coticule. The Arkansas stones would take a lifetime to do that with if at all.
I have gotten a really good edge going from a 1k bevel setter using it with tenjyou nagura, and following it with a Nakayama asagi with dmt slurry. But i did spend a lot of time making the best out of the 1k, ending with two light edge trailer strokes. Maybe it was just the extra focus i put on the bevel setter that made a difference.
Going from a convex bevel setter to a flat finisher have also worked, but i think that is a controversial subject. You then only need the finisher to work on the secondary bevel. You need a small wheel radius.
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- #7
I seem to use a fair amount of pressure while setting the bevel when 2-stone honing. Probably a subconscious approach. One thing’s for sure; this method will definitely expose an incomplete bevel set.
I do it with a washita> true hard sometimes, doesn't take too long.
Never tried that. I have a couple great in between stone that I like using to much.
I also have one hard coticule, which can leaves some deeper scratches. I think part of the stone is a little brittle. I have not been able to get good edges from this stone. It can be really fast if the surface is not burnished, but it takes a long time to get it smooth again.
Sure, you can, but really, why?
A 1k, 4-6k then a Jnat with diamond slurry, maybe a thin finish nagura.
A progression is much quicker and probably a stronger edge, but for hundreds of years guys honed on one stone and strop and shaved well.
I really doubt we are shaving that much better today, than they did hundreds of years ago with high grit naturals and mad skills.
A 1k, 4-6k then a Jnat with diamond slurry, maybe a thin finish nagura.
A progression is much quicker and probably a stronger edge, but for hundreds of years guys honed on one stone and strop and shaved well.
I really doubt we are shaving that much better today, than they did hundreds of years ago with high grit naturals and mad skills.
That seems to be my issue most of the time. If honing was a chore it would be the best but I like honing and will put a blade to 8 different stones most of the time until it feels like I want. Same with pocket knives and everything else.
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
1k to lvl 4.5 or harder Jnat works fine, depending on your nagura collection. 1k to coticule is a classic method, using dilucot or unicot. (I much prefer the former). Of the two, the Jnat has the potential for a slightly more satisfying edge. Really, in this day and age, not many guys still shave off a coticule. Any slurried natural of sufficient hardness and friability will work but that definitely doesn't include Arkies. I have done 1k Norton to 3-line Swaty barber hone, but that is sort of a camping out edge and not a waldorf astoria edge.
Basically, to me, it is just stunt honing. It can be done, and it can shave, but it can't satisfy me.
Basically, to me, it is just stunt honing. It can be done, and it can shave, but it can't satisfy me.
“Does anyone else regularly experiment with this method and are any of you using any special techniques to make the jump? Thanks”
Experimenting yes, most new higher grit synthetics are or can be aggressive with slurry and pressure.
A while back I removed a chip, bevel set and finished a razor with a 12k Super Stone, in 80 circles and 206 half laps. I rarely now use the 12k and use a 8k Snow White with about the same finish, pre Jnat. I have not tried bevel setting with the Snow White 8k but it could easily with slurry, circles and half laps, (Ax Method), I know a Norton8k can.
Experimenting yes, most new higher grit synthetics are or can be aggressive with slurry and pressure.
A while back I removed a chip, bevel set and finished a razor with a 12k Super Stone, in 80 circles and 206 half laps. I rarely now use the 12k and use a 8k Snow White with about the same finish, pre Jnat. I have not tried bevel setting with the Snow White 8k but it could easily with slurry, circles and half laps, (Ax Method), I know a Norton8k can.
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There is a guy (bloke as they say) in the UK who does it (edge dynamics). He goes from a 1k to a hard JNAT. He finishes with only about 15 strokes.
He claims he has an outstanding JNAT. There might be other things going on though i suspect
I have been interested in knowing if you somehow can preserve some of the deeper scratches and still have a smooth edge after the finisher.
Working for a long time, constantly to some degree flexing the edge might lead to some strain hardening and brittleness. You might end up with a "healthyer", and more rebust edge. Who knows.
Share you findings please.
May have a lot more to do with his beveler, honestly. You can shave somewhat passably off a good broken in coarse or Xcoarse DMT (220-325 grit) because of the nature of how they cut. A good run on a decent Jnat after would probably give a pretty decent shave.
Beveler to finisher can be made work fairly easily with a lot of setups... I just never bother because 30 seconds on my 8k in the middle makes every even half decent finishing hone basically autopilot to finish on.
I have not tried doing that. For me it’s like painting by numbers. I follow a natural progression on manufactured stones, 1,3,5,8,12 to finish. With some variation in between. Being new to honing, it just simplifies things for me, I spend more time around 3-5. Working for me.
Wow, 1,3,5,8,12!
You could easily cut that in half to a 1,3 or 5 and 12k. Once bevel set with a good edge, (jointed and re-set, the edge), the 3k is the workhorse removing all the deep 1k stria, then a high-grit stone just polishes. I often do 1k, 6k and Jnat.
One could make a large 1k jump easily with a piece of tape and a micro-bevel then the deep stria does not matter, and you only need to remove minimal steel. All that counts is the edge.
You could easily cut that in half to a 1,3 or 5 and 12k. Once bevel set with a good edge, (jointed and re-set, the edge), the 3k is the workhorse removing all the deep 1k stria, then a high-grit stone just polishes. I often do 1k, 6k and Jnat.
One could make a large 1k jump easily with a piece of tape and a micro-bevel then the deep stria does not matter, and you only need to remove minimal steel. All that counts is the edge.
But, really… if it is working for you keep at it.
Down the road you may want to experiment by removing some stones and see if you get the same results.
You also may want to experiment with Jointing the edge and stropping on linen between stone. Jointing removes flashing, thin burrs, so you are polishing a pristine edge, once flat a bevel can be reset in about 10 laps, it is also a stronger cleaner edge, because it is already straight.
The biggest trick is fully setting a bevel, finding a progression that works for you and consistently getting a good shaving edge.
A year from now your edges will be light years better than they are now. Keep swinging.
Down the road you may want to experiment by removing some stones and see if you get the same results.
You also may want to experiment with Jointing the edge and stropping on linen between stone. Jointing removes flashing, thin burrs, so you are polishing a pristine edge, once flat a bevel can be reset in about 10 laps, it is also a stronger cleaner edge, because it is already straight.
The biggest trick is fully setting a bevel, finding a progression that works for you and consistently getting a good shaving edge.
A year from now your edges will be light years better than they are now. Keep swinging.
I've never done a secondary bevel, I imagine it comes together in a hurry. Do you find the edge lasts longer?
Yea, the edge is the edge, does not matter if it the full bevel width or a fraction of a millimeter.
So, in woodworking the mantra for hundreds of years honing plane blades was, polish the back of the blade dead flat or as close as possible and to a mirror finish. The old two intersecting planes, blab, blab, blab.
Then a few years ago David Charlesworth, Master furniture maker, teacher hone a plane blade using a steel pocket rule to elevate the back of the blade, creating a micro-bevel on the back. Vola, no longer need to spend hours flattening and polishing a plane blade back.
It is now all the rage and even Lie Nielson recommends it.
Alex Gilmore has a video where he makes a super micro bevel by adding a piece of regular Scotch Tape and doing 3-4 final finishing laps. It works, but I use Kapton.
A few years ago, there was a well know custom razor maker of hard razors. Folks complained about chippy edges when re-honed. He said he finished his razors with a micro bevel. All the chipping stopped when a micro-bevel was applied. The trick is a Micro bevel just a few laps.
If you have a chippy edge on a hard razor, short of jointing and resetting on a high grit natural or film a micro bevel is an easy fix.
Give it a try, worst case it does not work for you. Erase the micro-bevel in about 10-20 laps of an 8k.
So, in woodworking the mantra for hundreds of years honing plane blades was, polish the back of the blade dead flat or as close as possible and to a mirror finish. The old two intersecting planes, blab, blab, blab.
Then a few years ago David Charlesworth, Master furniture maker, teacher hone a plane blade using a steel pocket rule to elevate the back of the blade, creating a micro-bevel on the back. Vola, no longer need to spend hours flattening and polishing a plane blade back.
It is now all the rage and even Lie Nielson recommends it.
Alex Gilmore has a video where he makes a super micro bevel by adding a piece of regular Scotch Tape and doing 3-4 final finishing laps. It works, but I use Kapton.
A few years ago, there was a well know custom razor maker of hard razors. Folks complained about chippy edges when re-honed. He said he finished his razors with a micro bevel. All the chipping stopped when a micro-bevel was applied. The trick is a Micro bevel just a few laps.
If you have a chippy edge on a hard razor, short of jointing and resetting on a high grit natural or film a micro bevel is an easy fix.
Give it a try, worst case it does not work for you. Erase the micro-bevel in about 10-20 laps of an 8k.
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