Wholecut Dress Shoes

[Tirvine]

I take it WOCBD is white oxford cloth button down collar. There is a school of thought that button down collars are too informal to wear with a suit. I quick Google of photos of top CEOs indicates this is not a school with a large alumni among the business elite. Button down collars with suits seems to me a standard prep/Ivy style, Same thing for cuffs with non-pleated trousers. But, as always, I cannot speak for every industry in every geographic location.

I am with Doc4. We are trying to give generic advice as to clothes that are most likely to be seen as conservative, acceptable, non-offensive business attire on a young man in the most places. I own and wear wing tips, but they do not seem "in style" these days, and thus might seem more noticeable on a young man. I like chalk stripes myself, and I suspect they are fine in my profession. I cannot speak for other industries or professions. The guy in the video discouraged chalk stripes.

As John Malloy concluded long ago in Dress for Success, I think rep striped ties are fine with chalk striped suits for American business wear. I think he would say rep striped ties are okay with a striped shirt and a chalk striped suit. I do not think I would go that far. For that matter, I do not see as many rep ties these days as I used to. Foulard with a striped suit might be the safer choice, if anyone had any concerns. The guy in the video warns against wearing rep ties that represent a particular organization that one is not a part of. I guess I would say even if you are a part of such an organization!


I am not sure. I would discourage loafers for job interviews. But Alden tasseled loafers are a classic and thus arguably a conservative style. As I understand it No. 8 is a intensely dark brown with some red or purple hue to it. Classic shell cordovan color, which some might refer to as oxblood, but to me there is a difference. A perfect dress shoe color to me. Better and more versatile than dark brown as it is a richer color, and can substitute for black in most instances where black might be thought of as required. I do not see a lot of young men wearing this style. I am not a good judge here. I would probably be impressed with real shell cordovan tasseled loafers.

Just my 2 cents though. And, of course, it is most important to be confident, to be prepared, and to give good answers in job interviews.

Everything you say is spot on. I was just pointing out that my employers, the Fed, a large bank, a large law firm, and state government at the level of running large agencies, were all comfortable with my peculiar ivy mode of dress.

 

[The Knize]

Everything you say is spot on. I was just pointing out that my employers, the Fed, a large bank, a large law firm, and state government at the level of running large agencies, were all comfortable with my peculiar ivy mode of dress.

It is very difficult for me to argue with anything Ivy! By Fed you mean the Federal reserve? Well-done. None of the first three is going to have any trouble with chalk stripes, WOCBD, tasseled Alden cordovan loafers! I have no idea about state agencies, but I suspect if they are running large agencies there are plenty of folks wearing what you are wearing and it is a good fit, so to speak.

 

[The Knize]

I just walked by the Alden shoe store in a major eastern city. In the window they had a pair of double monk strap and a pair of wholecuts, both in black calf skin, it looked like. I am not sure what that tells me, other than that black my be just as "in" as ever with the average Alden's customer. Beautiful shoes!

I also noticed that Alden's carries what they call a wholecut loafer. I did not realize there was such a thing. One of my most important mentors, made a point of dressing very well--Oxxford suits and the like--and he made a point of wearing McAffees, which he went to NYC to buy, among other clothing, I am sure. This is before Church took over McAfee or simply bought the name, whichever internet source you believe. I did not know it at the time, but this wholecut loafer sure looks like the same style he almost invariably wore. I do not think I had seen anyone wear this style in decades. They look good to me. Maybe it is my conditioning, but I would consider these as conservative and business appropriate as Alden tasseled loafers. They are not Ivy, I would not say, but I would think you could wear them with a full-on Ivy attire and they would go perfectly.

 

[Doc4]

There is a school of thought that button down collars are too informal to wear with a suit. I quick Google of photos of top CEOs indicates

I am aware of that school of thought. IIRC it originates with the Oxford cloth button-down, which indelibly associated that collar with that particular cloth (large-weave informal cloth) for a shirt intended for sporting/casual wear.

I have seen plenty of shirts that combine a button-down collar with a finer, more "dress shirt" fabric. Some would say "problem solved". Others would say "disconcertingly incongruous".

I say "meh". I'm not overly bothered with this particular "rule" even if I normally obey it more often than not.

I am not overly enthused by using top CEOs as style guides ... these are the guys who have advanced so far up the corporate ladder that they know they can let their "freak flag fly" as it were and nobody is going to give them grief. But many times they will expect the young kids at the bottom of the ladder to follow the rules until they attain either enough experience to know how to bend the rules without breaking them, or enough seniority to break the rules without consequence.

my employers ... were all comfortable with my peculiar ivy mode of dress.

Interviewers are looking to hire the most qualified candidate, not be the fashion police. I rather suspect you would have had just as much interview success by wearing "the standard advice" outfit, and the likelihood of the difference between the two outfits being make-or-break in an interview is not high at all.

Listening to you describe it, I am also guessing that you "nailed it" in terms of fit and finish and polish on the shoes. That's going to go a long way.

 

[The Knize]

Others would say "disconcertingly incongruous".

I tend slightly to that camp. I have know guys to wear broadcloth shirts with button down collars and double (i.e., button cuffs). It just does not look right to me!

I am not overly enthused by using top CEOs as style guides ... these are the guys who have advanced so far up the corporate ladder that they know they can let their "freak flag fly" as it were and nobody is going to give them grief. But many times they will expect the young kids at the bottom of the ladder to follow the rules until they attain either enough experience to know how to bend the rules without breaking them, or enough seniority to break the rules without consequence.

Well, there is a thought. I guess I was thinking of the sort of "official" photograph that seems most likely to turn up on the web, taken some from some stockholder's report or from some stockholders meeting. And I was thinking of major conventional, publicly-owned companies--not dot.com types or closely held companies. But companies where the CEO always has to "serve somebody," as Bob Dylan put it, whether the board of directors or the stockholders, and wants to be seen as conservative, calm, and in control by that audience. I do not think the kind of guys I am talking about ever get to let their freak flag fly completely.

But your points are well-taken for other purposes. I have actually been cautioned by someone in the executive coaching field to the effect that just because the CEO is appearing before lots of the folks from the company wearing a suit without a tie, does not give license for other executives in the company--still talking about relatively high up people!--to go without a tie. That the message from the CEO was exactly as you say. "I can dress this way because I have the power to do whatever I like, and you most assuredly do not." Interesting to think of more formal attire as a way of giving deference to folks higher up the food chain.

In other words, don't dress like Mark Zuckerberg, even if you work for Facebook.

On the other hand, as Ms. Manners always said, clothes can be highly symbolic. They often speak. Part of the trick is to know what your clothes may be heard to say by anyone you care about hearing a particular message. If I am your superior, I may well think you can fly your freak flag on your own time, but not at my office! Or you may well think that restrictions on what you wear are restrictions on who you can be at the office. In this you would be exactly correct!

<enough experience to know how to bend the rules without breaking them>
Also true! Bright red socks may be perfectly fine--or not. I know a head executive type who liked to wear bright red socks and gave out pairs of them as an award to employees for jobs well done. A Jerry Garcia tie may be perfectly fine. A vest with a Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds motif or marijuana leaves, maybe not so much! (My dry cleaning guy, whom I adore, looks like a basic, conservative small business guy, and is very well-read and informed about a wealth of topics, and manages to keep me coming back paying way more for laundered shirts than I ever could have imagined, last week was wearing a black silk-like shirt, emblazoned with bright green marijuana leaves. Recreational weed is legal where I am, but I am still not sure I would have gone with that shirt, maybe any more than I would have gone with a shirt covered in martini glasses. For what its worth, he told me he does not smoke., that he just likes the shirt.)

Interviewers are looking to hire the most qualified candidate, not be the fashion police. I rather suspect you would have had just as much interview success by wearing "the standard advice" outfit, and the likelihood of the difference between the two outfits being make-or-break in an interview is not high at all.

Listening to you describe it, I am also guessing that you "nailed it" in terms of fit and finish and polish on the shoes. That's going to go a long way.

I agree with all of that. On the other hand, I personally think, without a lot of statistical support, that an "Ivy mode of dress" is generally going to send the right sartorial signal even to those who do not know that they are looking at. I do not think many interviewers are going to think "the nerve of that guy coming in here wearing a button down collar" or "does this guy think he is is better than me, dressing like he went to Harvard?"

Another illustrative thought, as I recall, Booz Allen the consulting firm used to have a rule that its consultants when meeting with clients, at least clients in the heartland, should always wear at least a blue blazer, the idea being to dress one step up from whatever the client was wearing, as something of s signal that the consultant knew what he was talking about and should be respected. IBM used to have its executives wear blue suits and white shirts. I have not idea whether places have those kinds of dress codes anymore. And I have no idea what that would have told me about what to wear to an interview at Booz Allen or IBM even at the time!

 

[Doc4]

wants to be seen as conservative, calm, and in control by that audience

"I can dress this way because I have the power to do whatever I like, and you most assuredly do not."

We could write books here on the whole art of presenting world leaders and politicians in various levels of attire formality.

nteresting to think of more formal attire as a way of giving deference to folks higher up the food chain.

It has been observed that the servants of the aristocracy tend to be dressed in the way the aristocracy dressed 100 years earlier. IE: more formally.

"does this guy think he is is better than me, dressing like he went to Harvard?"

Maybe he's dressing up to indicate that he thinks you are a member of the aristocracy and he is your servant.

Booz Allen the consulting firm

Did they consult a large number of distilleries?

 

[The Knize]

Well-said on all, Ian. (Laughing!)

I could not begin to opine on proper political attire is these days. Suits without ties and dress sneakers seem to be the rage, and I do not know that it is at all hierarchy based. Whatever it is, I would say, do not dress like Elon Musk. And unless you are the ex-President or of similar stature, do not wear Brioni suits several sizes too large or your necktie midway down your zipper!

I have said way more than enough already!

 

[Multum in parvo]

Well, I work in a finance (banking) company with a balance sheet north of 360bn/tn (US) and nobody gives a f*** if you are wearing a tie or not. So yes standards are slipping but the machine is running smoothly - so just relax especially if you are a Newb.

 

[Edgelord]

I was watching a You Tube video of a guy giving advice to the inexperienced on buying suits and I guess you would say "accessories" if those include shoes. I thought his overall advice for dress shoes, at last the first dress shoes one bought, if one were only going to have a pair or two was pretty good. Basically Oxford/Balmoral in black, dark brown, or oxblood. But he also gave specific advice for job interviews, as opposed to general business wear, for instance, conservative rather than colorful socks. Fair enough. For shoes he suggested the foregoing with minimal, if any, broguing. Also fair enough, I suppose. But he also mentioned that wholecut shoes were a modern style that might be too attention getting for a job interview.

I think I would have considered wholecut shoes about as plain and unadorned Balmoral dress shoe as exists, and thus rather unobtrusive and unshowy, Certainly not overly trendy. I suppose I might consider that wholecut shoes might typically be relatively expensive shoes and thus as showy as any expensive shoes might be if the interviewer recognized that he was looking at expensive shoes. But I think I would have considered wholecuts a rather safe pick to where with a suit to a job interview.

Anyone have any thoughts on this? Have I missed a nuance about this type of dress shoe?

Wholecuts, in my opinion, are for dinner suits.

I like a cap toe Oxford style shoe for not looking too flashy or dandy… but I prefer to wear brogues and wingtips.

 

[The Knize]

Well, I work in a finance (banking) company with a balance sheet north of 360bn/tn (US) and nobody gives a f*** if you are wearing a tie or not. So yes standards are slipping but the machine is running smoothly - so just relax especially if you are a Newb.

Absolutely. And not making any judgments about what constitutes a "slippage in standards," either!! I think the summary rule from all of the discussion in the thread is what Saint Ambrose advised Saint Augustine, "quando a Roma vai." That is, "when in Rome do as the Roman's do!"

This would, of course, be in contradistinction to what some admittedly out-of-date, pedantic old guy on Badger and Blade thought you should consider doing!!! But two obvious corollaries, try to make sure you are actually in Rome, and not, say, Carthage. And if you are in fact in Rome, be sure to do some research in a advance on what it is Romans actually do!

In the 21st Century, when it turns out your fourth interviewer of the day for your dream job is wearing a suit and tie just like each of the first three, and you are wearing neither, perhaps you were not in Rome after all! Just saying! Whatever it is you are selling, including yourself, it pays to know your audience!

 

[WThomas0814]

Brogues/wingtips for anything dressier than smart casual. Whole cuts, to me, are quite formal. I've never worn cap toes, but I don't know why.

Black suit, black shoes. Blue or grey suit, burgundy shoes. Brown shoes with blue for business casual only. Always leather soles.

Leftover from my career are more shoes than I'll ever need, almost exclusively Florsheim Imperial.

Also, throw in a fur felt fedora.

 

[StillShaving]

I couldn't spell sartorial without help from google. I use that as a setup to say that if I saw someone wearing wholecuts in my younger days that they would probably be patent leather shoes. Seeing any shoe made from a single piece of leather, pleather, or fabric never registered as being higher end in my commoner mindset. If anything, it was just a plain and boring dress shoe, not something more desirable like wing tips or a shoe with some brogueing. Only later did I understand that a wholecut shoe often represents higher quality.

I realize that was just a general advice article about interviewing, but I can't imagine an interviewer getting that good of a look at one's shoes to be able to tag them as wholecut (or even caring that much) unless it was a longer form interview where the person was taken out to lunch and having a longer interaction.

 

[The Knize]

yes, cheers Mip!

 

[Natsoi]

I own one pair of wholecuts, they are brown and I never wear them with a suit.

I’ve been interviewed and hired a lot of people. Typically in leadership roles across commercial operational and technical. As you can imagine the dress/outfits vary considerably.

I always look at a person’s shoes - they don’t have to be a pair of oxfords or whatever one might consider to be their ideal but they do need to be clean and well cared for. My general rule is that if you can’t work out that you need to be clean and well groomed in a professional setting (and at the very least, your best self in the interview) you’re either incredibly self unaware or you just don’t care.

For myself, suits come in blue with whatever patters and embellishments one wants and I wear them with black shoes. Oxfords, brogues and loafers are all part of the mix but my general rule is that ties = laces. Black is the colour for suits, browns and such are for separates. The one exception would be a cotton or casual-type suit which I don’t happen to own.

I don’t particularly care what collar one wears with a shirt/suit/tie so long as it’s well executed. There are many families of style but they need to be consistent. For example, you wouldn’t wear a button down with a Versace tie tied in a double Windsor.

For black tie, patent leather shoes in whatever style you want. It’s a chance to have one or two elements of the outfit be a bit flashier.

 

[The Knize]

Thanks, Natsoi! See, others reading this, there are folks who notice and who care. And I bet there are more folks out there who do both, perhaps unconsciously, who do not care to expressly say so or to even admit it to themselves! (Actually, I bet that after reading through this thread, lots of people doing interviews are going to be more likely to notice! Don't you think?)

A job interview is a competition. Why assume that the interviewer does not care how you dress? Why take a chance on sending the clothing symbolic message that you are either incredibly self-unaware or that you just do not care? Or put another way, why not give yourself a potential advantage over your competition by giving some thought to making sure that the clothes you wear to an interview send the symbolic message that you are self aware (and aware of others) and care and you are joining with your interviewer.

For example, you wouldn’t wear a button down with a Versace tie tied in a double Windsor.

I like that example! Just so!

I think it was John Malloy who said "If you dress poorly, no one will assume that you know how to dress and simply choose not to. They will all simply assume that you do not know how to dress." (Agan, when in Rome . . . . An interviewee that dresses casually in way that perfectly fits the culture of the place where he is interviewing, is dressing well, not poorly!) It is better to demonstrate competence and care across the board in a job interview. And if you send the signal in a job interview that you do not care what I think of you, why would I hire you?

As Napoleon Dynamite advised, a person show be able to demonstrate that they have skills. Pedro for president!

I do conclude that enough folks out in the world consider wholecut shoes to be inherently "showy" so that I would not wear them to a job interview. Thanks everyone for the input and participation and for putting up with my seemingly haughty attitude!

 

[The Knize]

I couldn't spell sartorial without help from google.

Me either! Good word though!

 

[Doc4]

make sure you are actually in Rome, and not, say, Carthage.

Wholecut delenda est!

 

[Doc4]

I’ve been interviewed and hired a lot of people. ...

I always look at a person’s shoes ... My general rule is that if you can’t work out that you need to be clean and well groomed in a professional setting (and at the very least, your best self in the interview) you’re either incredibly self unaware or you just don’t care.

A job interview is a competition.

Why assume that the interviewer does not care how you dress? Why take a chance on sending the clothing symbolic message that you are either incredibly self-unaware or that you just do not care? Or put another way, why not give yourself a potential advantage over your competition by giving some thought to making sure that the clothes you wear to an interview send the symbolic message that you are self aware (and aware of others) and care and you are joining with your interviewer.

I think it was John Malloy who said "If you dress poorly, no one will assume that you know how to dress and simply choose not to. They will all simply assume that you do not know how to dress." ... It is better to demonstrate competence and care across the board in a job interview. And if you send the signal in a job interview that you do not care what I think of you, why would I hire you?

Worth re-quoting for truth.

In 99.9999% of interviews*, you won't get hired because you nailed the interview attire. But buggering it up could cost you the interview. Ditto with brushing your teeth and combing your hair ... nobody is going to hire you because you brushed your teeth really really well and combed your hair to perfection; they will check your personality and qualifications. But show up unkempt and with four days of unbrushed stank on your teeth, they will toss you without a second thought.


*Maybe maybe, a job interview at a high-end clothing store could be based on whether or not you can dress the part. Only IF you can, we move you on to stage two of the interview. Something like that.

 

[The Knize]

Wholecut delenda est!

wow, clear signs of a classic liberal arts education. I am impressed!

 

[Multum in parvo]

So I saw my first Wholecut (black) today. Former Lawyer that switched to banking