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Wholecut Dress Shoes

I was watching a You Tube video of a guy giving advice to the inexperienced on buying suits and I guess you would say "accessories" if those include shoes. I thought his overall advice for dress shoes, at last the first dress shoes one bought, if one were only going to have a pair or two was pretty good. Basically Oxford/Balmoral in black, dark brown, or oxblood. But he also gave specific advice for job interviews, as opposed to general business wear, for instance, conservative rather than colorful socks. Fair enough. For shoes he suggested the foregoing with minimal, if any, broguing. Also fair enough, I suppose. But he also mentioned that wholecut shoes were a modern style that might be too attention getting for a job interview.

I think I would have considered wholecut shoes about as plain and unadorned Balmoral dress shoe as exists, and thus rather unobtrusive and unshowy, Certainly not overly trendy. I suppose I might consider that wholecut shoes might typically be relatively expensive shoes and thus as showy as any expensive shoes might be if the interviewer recognized that he was looking at expensive shoes. But I think I would have considered wholecuts a rather safe pick to where with a suit to a job interview.

Anyone have any thoughts on this? Have I missed a nuance about this type of dress shoe?
 
Well, that is a thought. One could think of dressing for a job interview, which was the context at issue, as seeking to dress as unobjectionally as possible. As absolutely as middle of the road as can be. This by itself reflects a certain fashion sense. A sense of what other people are wearing and of what other people are wearing that seems trendy and what seems more enduring. In this respect, brown cap-toed Oxfords are probably the very middle of the road when it comes to
attire these days. Dark brown does seem the least offensive possible color these days. I personally tend more toward black, still. We are talking business suits here. I know that the Italians don't like black shoes, and youth seem to tend toward brown and I think that has tended to make black shoes passe to some folks. I suppose I think more British. I am in the city not the country so shoes are black. :) I am also east coasr. That may make a difference.

I do not think many participants on this subforum would advocate, perhaps "want to" is the better way to put it, own(ing) just one pair of dress shoes or just one style. That said, I own more cap-toed shoes in one variation or another than any other style.

I did think whoever I was watching on You Tube was pretty good overall in making a distinction between, say, the first suit or pair of dress shoes one bought and the fourth. Along those lines, whole cuts would probably not be the first shoes I bought. Dark brown cap-toes probably would be.
 
If you are a person buying their first/only suit you're not going to be buying whole cuts because 1) you probably don't have the money for them, and 2) you're not that far down the fashion rabbit hole.

While "what to wear to a job interview" advice needs to be tailored to location, industry, and season, as a whole I think the advice is sound - dress more conservative, don't be too flashy, etc. I think either dark brown Oxfords or cap toes would be fine in this situation.

With the "casualizaton" of dress codes, a single blue/navy suit and dark brown shoes are all most men will ever need. With a pair of gray trousers and a pair of khaki/tan trousers (to mix with the navy suit jacket), a white dress shirt, a light blue dress shirt, and a couple of ties (some darker, some more colorful) and they would be set for any situation that (should) require a suit - wedding, funeral, baptism, fancy dinner, job interview, etc.
 
If you are a person buying their first/only suit you're not going to be buying whole cuts because 1) you probably don't have the money for them, and 2) you're not that far down the fashion rabbit hole.

While "what to wear to a job interview" advice needs to be tailored to location, industry, and season, as a whole I think the advice is sound - dress more conservative, don't be too flashy, etc. I think either dark brown Oxfords or cap toes would be fine in this situation.

With the "casualizaton" of dress codes, a single blue/navy suit and dark brown shoes are all most men will ever need. With a pair of gray trousers and a pair of khaki/tan trousers (to mix with the navy suit jacket), a white dress shirt, a light blue dress shirt, and a couple of ties (some darker, some more colorful) and they would be set for any situation that (should) require a suit - wedding, funeral, baptism, fancy dinner, job interview, etc.
<1) you probably don't have the money for them>

I might have thought that wholecut shoes were generally more expensive that standard cap-toed shoes, but a quick internet search indicates not so much. There are some remarkably low-priced wholecuts that show up in an internet search, including on Amazon. And on Beckett-Simonon, a source of shoes I would suggest for the at least the young businessman buying his first suit(s) and interviewing for his first job, wholecuts are priced exactly the same as Oxford cap-toes.

< 2) you're not that far down the fashion rabbit hole.>

Well, that implicitly goes to my initial inquiry. It sounds like your opinion is that wholecut shoes are in fact very much a creature of fashion and trends, and, I am assuming, but you do not actually say, would therefore not be a suitable conservative shoe for a job interview. If I am reading you correctly, your view is in accord with the guy I was watching on You Tube. (I should really track that video down and at least give the guy a name, since I am purportng to state his views on this forum.) Fair enough! My own impressions as stated in the OP, may well be incorrect, as far as generally thinking on this. That is why I was asking! I may have to decide what to wear to a job interview of my own sometime, or what to wear in specific situations if I am trying to keep things as non-showy as possible.

I agree with your next paragraph. I might have said wholecuts would have been "fine in this situation," as well, but I confess to being less sure. I think in many geographic areas, black shoes would be fine, too. But folks like you are starting to make me question that, too.

<With the "casualizaton" of dress codes, a single blue/navy suit and dark brown shoes are all most men will ever need.>

Highly dependent on the factors you allude to, including the industry/profession, amount of client contact, maybe geographic area, etc. I agree start with navy (not another variation of blue, but navy) or darker gray (probably charcoal, but a bit lighter could work. I think charcoal varies a bit anyway.) As to shoes, I probably agree that dark brown cap toes are the place to start. But if you are gong to wear those shoes with other clothing, I think you are going to need at least two pairs of shoes. I would make sure not to wear the same leather shoes two days in a row. It is hard on them, and I do not think a person ought to look like they own only one pair of shoes. I do not suggest black unless you are wearing suit.

<With a pair of gray trousers and a pair of khaki/tan trousers (to mix with the navy suit jacket)>
I am not sure what you are wearing the rest of the time, if you wear the suit only occasionally or rarely. Unless your are wearing jeans, seems to me you are wearing some kind of slacks, likely khakis and/or at least something in gray. I do not think you want to wear the same pair of pants every day. Maybe you want a nicer pair of wool slacks that are dresser than your day to day "wash pants" as a colleague or mine used to call them. As for wearing unmatching slacks with a suit jacket, I know that that seems to have come to be acceptable in some quarters. In effect one would be treating a suit jacket as a sports coat or blazer. I would say that not that long ago that would be seen as not really in the realm of conservative dress. I am not sure how accepted it is now. In a world of being on Zoom calls and such, I kind of like it, myself. Indeed, it is what I am wearing as I type this. To me it has a certain sprezzatura, or of an dressing as if one one did not put a lot of thought into it. But I would be careful. A blue blazer is not that expensive and is rather versatile. I also think that folks at lots of places go without ties even when they are wearing a suit. I like ties myself, but I do not feel strongly. I think maybe dress as your boss' boss dresses as to these things.

I would wear a tie to a funeral or a wedding! I agree one should own at least a few ties, some more somber than others.

Anyone else have any thoughts on how fashion forward and thus not conservative wholecuts are?
 
I hate to post this here because it is off topic, but it will make more sense in this context without providing a lot of background if I posted in a new thread. But another thing the guy said was that if you want to look older, go with a gray/charcoal suit. If you want to look younger go with a navy suit.

I had never thought about it in those terms. But now that I have thought about it a bit, I think he has a point. Maybe I should be wearing more blue suits!

Also, when I emphasized "navy blue" suit not just a "blue" suit, what I am thinking, and this is not an original thought to me, is that you you own only a suit or two, a navy or a charcoal suit is not going to be memorable, whereas a suit in a different shade of blue might well be. I think a general principle you do not want folks to think you own only one suit, even if that is so.

I have said more than enough! :)
 
Well tbh I don’t think I’ve ever seen a wholecut in the wild and going by the pictures I would rather put them in a frame of (private) functions than regular business attire.

95595FFC-A240-4936-AFD6-D9BFEA46BEF4.jpeg


Lazy b***** that I am I nearly completely switched over to Loafers for everything business related.
 
I had not run into or maybe not given any thought to Norwegian sewn dress shoes. What distinguishes them? I quick web search indicates many look like wholecuts, but not all. Also, many of the ones that look like wholecuts have a squared off toe. A squared off toe does seem like a deviation from conservative, traditional foot wear.

Great set of comparison photos Multum in parvo. The wholecuts just look like an even less ornate version of the plain toes to me. So not so much of a fashion statement or anything. The wingtips seem far enough away from traditional wing tips to be something of a fashion statement or at least not a conservative style. But I could be off!

 
Thanks, malocchio. AE shoebank is great. I think AE shoes are very good. I think AE has keep its quality up, at least as to its regular leather dress shoes. On-line reviews seem to confirm that. I bought a pair of AE boat shoes, made in the Dominican Republic or some such, that I did not end up loving long term. But I think that was an outlier. I think it has been a long time since AE carried that model and the boat shoes AE has now seem to be marked down a whole lot.

For that matter, I did not see any wholecuts on the AE website just now. Maybe they were a passing fashion thing.

BTW, the shoes shown in Multum in parvo's great set of photos seem a little light colored brown for me if one were only going to have one pair of dress shoes. I do not know AE's colors that well. These maybe Walnut brown or something like that. Lighter brown and/or tan shoes seem to be more of a recent fashion thing to me.

Lazy b***** that I am I nearly completely switched over to Loafers for everything business related.
Don't get me wrong! I am lazy, too, and wear loafers frequently, even with a suit. I have even taken to wearing those leather tennis with dark leather uppers and white soles, that seem to be trendy as substitutes for dress shoes. The concept seems fine to me. And often enough, I wear fairly busy socks. I am wearing suits more often. I guess I wear a shirt and tie and slacks most often with a sports coat or blazer handy. But I am old and used to wearing a tie for work. I puts me in the right frame of mind. For that matter, I am old and it does not make that much difference what I wear.

This thread is really devoted to the younger guy buying his first business attire/wedding/funeral attire, especially what we might suggest he wear or not wear to a job interview, assuming that it is the kind of job interview where a suit was appropriate and conservative styles seemed called for. I have no idea what to where to an interview at an ad agency or a dot.com start up! Maybe not a charcoal suit!

I dug out the video I was watching.
The discussion of wearing a whole cut to a job interview starts around 18:58. As I think I said earlier, I think this guy, Antonio, at least in this video is pretty good. I might disagree with him here and there, with him being even more conservative that I would be, for the most part.
 
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I'm a firm believer that black shoes should be worn with black belt, and black or gray clothing. Brown shoes are reserved for more colorful clothing and brown belt. With the exception of seersucker which needs to be worn with white shoes, and a straw hat.
 

Doc4

Stumpy in cold weather
Staff member
IMHO it's a "low key flash" sort of shoe that does very well in dressy situations provided the colour is right. The tendency is toward getting them in a lighter tan or other "style" colour rather than unobtrusive black, brown, or burgundy. (If you are going wholecut, why go boring?) If it's a good and appropriate colour, I see no need to worry between a wholecut and a captoe Oxford.

(If someone is walking into a place where the difference between a black captoe oxford and a black wholecut will actually make the difference, then he need far more expert and detailed advice than anything we can muster for him here.)

guy giving advice to the inexperienced
That's key here ... basic, simple guidelines that are easy and inexpensive to follow for the beginner. Not that "everything else is wrong" but "if you do *this* you will know you won't go wrong".
wholecut shoes were a modern style that might be too attention getting for a job interview.
IIRC the wholecut has been around for a long time. Requiring one larger piece of leather and greater skill from the cobbler, it was somewhat uncommon to see and tended toward the more expensive ... both to compensate for the materials/skill used, and because only the more posh brands would have customers interested in the additional outlay.

It's not "Ferrari instead of Ford" flash, but "Lexus instead of Toyota" flash, if you will.

I think I would have considered wholecut shoes about as plain and unadorned Balmoral dress shoe as exists, and thus rather unobtrusive and unshowy, Certainly not overly trendy.

Agreed.

Dark brown does seem the least offensive possible color these days. I personally tend more toward black, still. We are talking business suits here.

Black is the most formal. Not many places/jobs require that level of dress formality anymore, or care about the difference between black and brown/burgundy.

I am also east coasr. That may make a difference.

Probably. Style "rules" change from area to area. Cowboy boots are going to be far more suit-wearing-appropriate in Austin than in Boston.

a distinction between, say, the first suit or pair of dress shoes one bought and the fourth

Absolutely. Start "conservative/versatile" and move toward "flash/niche" with each subsequent purchase ... but move that way only as much as one wants to.

There are some remarkably low-priced wholecuts that show up in an internet search

Nowadays there may be. As stated above, IIRC traditionally they were a more "expensive" option. Pick-stitching used to be a subtle indication of a hand-made suit, but now they have machines that put it on any cheap suit you want.

As to shoes, I probably agree that dark brown cap toes are the place to start.

I'd say make your first pair black captoes, but the next dozen pair can all be brown if you want.

To me it has a certain sprezzatura
Gesundheit
if you want to look older, go with a gray/charcoal suit. If you want to look younger go with a navy suit.

I had never thought about it in those terms. But now that I have thought about it a bit, I think he has a point. Maybe I should be wearing more blue suits!

Is wearing blue suits the 21st-century Prufrock?

Norwegian sewn dress shoes. What distinguishes them?

To my thinking, the Norwegian is typified by a "split toe" leading to a U-shaped seam along the top of the foot.
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It always struck me as a bit more informal, leading toward casual.
wholecuts on the AE website just now. Maybe they were a passing fashion thing.

Always stylish, but only occasionally fashionable and popular.
 
<1) you probably don't have the money for them>

I might have thought that wholecut shoes were generally more expensive that standard cap-toed shoes, but a quick internet search indicates not so much. There are some remarkably low-priced wholecuts that show up in an internet search, including on Amazon. And on Beckett-Simonon, a source of shoes I would suggest for the at least the young businessman buying his first suit(s) and interviewing for his first job, wholecuts are priced exactly the same as Oxford cap-toes.

< 2) you're not that far down the fashion rabbit hole.>

Well, that implicitly goes to my initial inquiry. It sounds like your opinion is that wholecut shoes are in fact very much a creature of fashion and trends, and, I am assuming, but you do not actually say, would therefore not be a suitable conservative shoe for a job interview. If I am reading you correctly, your view is in accord with the guy I was watching on You Tube. (I should really track that video down and at least give the guy a name, since I am purportng to state his views on this forum.) Fair enough! My own impressions as stated in the OP, may well be incorrect, as far as generally thinking on this. That is why I was asking! I may have to decide what to wear to a job interview of my own sometime, or what to wear in specific situations if I am trying to keep things as non-showy as possible.

I agree with your next paragraph. I might have said wholecuts would have been "fine in this situation," as well, but I confess to being less sure. I think in many geographic areas, black shoes would be fine, too. But folks like you are starting to make me question that, too.

<With the "casualizaton" of dress codes, a single blue/navy suit and dark brown shoes are all most men will ever need.>

Highly dependent on the factors you allude to, including the industry/profession, amount of client contact, maybe geographic area, etc. I agree start with navy (not another variation of blue, but navy) or darker gray (probably charcoal, but a bit lighter could work. I think charcoal varies a bit anyway.) As to shoes, I probably agree that dark brown cap toes are the place to start. But if you are gong to wear those shoes with other clothing, I think you are going to need at least two pairs of shoes. I would make sure not to wear the same leather shoes two days in a row. It is hard on them, and I do not think a person ought to look like they own only one pair of shoes. I do not suggest black unless you are wearing suit.

<With a pair of gray trousers and a pair of khaki/tan trousers (to mix with the navy suit jacket)>
I am not sure what you are wearing the rest of the time, if you wear the suit only occasionally or rarely. Unless your are wearing jeans, seems to me you are wearing some kind of slacks, likely khakis and/or at least something in gray. I do not think you want to wear the same pair of pants every day. Maybe you want a nicer pair of wool slacks that are dresser than your day to day "wash pants" as a colleague or mine used to call them. As for wearing unmatching slacks with a suit jacket, I know that that seems to have come to be acceptable in some quarters. In effect one would be treating a suit jacket as a sports coat or blazer. I would say that not that long ago that would be seen as not really in the realm of conservative dress. I am not sure how accepted it is now. In a world of being on Zoom calls and such, I kind of like it, myself. Indeed, it is what I am wearing as I type this. To me it has a certain sprezzatura, or of an dressing as if one one did not put a lot of thought into it. But I would be careful. A blue blazer is not that expensive and is rather versatile. I also think that folks at lots of places go without ties even when they are wearing a suit. I like ties myself, but I do not feel strongly. I think maybe dress as your boss' boss dresses as to these things.

I would wear a tie to a funeral or a wedding! I agree one should own at least a few ties, some more somber than others.

Anyone else have any thoughts on how fashion forward and thus not conservative wholecuts are?

I'm just going to hit the high points here. I think if you ask the average man on the street - not living in a fashionable city, or "into" style/fashion - what wholecut shoes are, they won't have any idea. They might know what Oxfords or cap-toes are, but would likely lump them into the entire "dress shoes" category. That's what I meant about the "fashion rabbit hole" - wholecuts are a niche term that 98% (or more) of men will not know.

Regarding other pants: it seems to me that most men, when not wearing a suit, wear either chinos or odd trousers, that don't need to go with a suit jacket. In fact, suit jackets, sport coats, and blazers seem to both be relegated to being used only at formal events. By no means did I mean to suggest that 3 pairs of pants are enough for a man; just that those three colors to wear with a navy suit jacket - very sprezzatura, as you said - will cover most formal events.

As for having a second pair of shoes - I agree! Instead of black, I would go with a blue/navy pair. I find them more versatile than black. But I tend to be a bit more fashion forward, and certainly wouldn't look down on someone wearing black shoes. Sadly, I see more and more men wearing dress sneakers (ugh) with dress pants.

On a side note: it's nice to be able to have this conversation! I don't have anyone to discuss or debate the intricacies of men's style. I often feel like I'm in a bubble, dressing in my tailored clothes and affecting a specific smart-casual look. I both love and hate being the best dressed person wherever I go. Cheers, mate!
 
Re side note: Yes, very fun talking about this stuff. As I think I have mentioned before, I may talk a better game than I actually play, except at work where I tend to wear a shirt and tie, and decent dress shoes. I do feel like when I started my profession I did not know much about how to dress, to a potentially embarassing extent.

Jacksonville might raise the level of difficulty and isolation! Cheers!
 
Thanks for weighing in Ian. I was hoping you would. More soon, but a few quick thoughts.

I am struggling a little on black versus brown as a first pair of dress shoes. Maybe I am of a generation with Frank Zappa stuck in my head, if you get the reference. Maybe I am stuck on British influences along the lines of if you are in the city you wear black shoes, and if you are doing business, you are by definition in the city. Also, black just seems more dressed up to me. But I do not think my younger son, who is pretty darn good on current business attire, seems to think of black shoes as a little old-fashioned, or something like that. He seems to form his views based on observations of others, and not like me from reading and watching You Tube videos! :)

I did not know Norwegian at all. I agree with you completely. I do not love the split toe, anyway.

I do not get the Prufrock reference, and Lovesong may be my favorite poem and one that seems more and more fitting for me. Can you elaborate? Somes like a good metaphor.

Interesting point re people frequently buying wholecuts in nontraditional colors and them not standing out if in a traditional color. I think you and I are on the same page there. That makes sense to me as a reason to wear or not wear wholecuts to a job interview. Just seems like a classic style of dress shoe to me.
 

Doc4

Stumpy in cold weather
Staff member
I am struggling a little on black versus brown as a first pair of dress shoes. Maybe I am of a generation with Frank Zappa stuck in my head

Watch out where the huskies poo, and don't wear that brown shoe.

Seriously though, any suit owner will need a pair of black shoes for certain occasions. When buying a "first suit", one is presumably buying navy or mid/dark grey. Black shoes will work very well with those.

If he is going to wear his one suit once every second year, then the black shoes will always do him well enough and never be out of place. If he's going to buy more suits soon and wear them frequently, he'll need more shoes anyhow and will soon buy lots of brown shoes as well if that is his preference.

I say all this as someone who usually wears brown or tan shoes with my suits rather than black ... but black occasionally.

I do not love the split toe, anyway.

agreed.

I do not get the Prufrock reference,

I grow old . . . I grow old . . .
I shall wear the bottoms of my trousers rolled.

Shall I part my hair behind? Do I dare to eat a peach?
I shall wear blue instead of grey, and walk upon the beach.

to wear or not wear wholecuts to a job interview

IMHO "advice on what to wear to an interview" tends to be aimed toward younger interviewees with less experience, and often with an implied "what you should be buying when you go shopping for your first interview outfit". Very safe, staid, unobtrusive "style-rule-following" choices that are most likely to be perfectly good for as many different interviewees in different industries in different places.

Now, if I were giving advice to one dude, and could find out all the relevant details of his upcoming interview, and then go look in his closet, I could point out the specific items to wear and then we'd go shopping together and see what was available locally within his budget to fill the gaps. Maybe he ends up wearing wholecuts to the interview. Or whatever he has already in his closet that will be suitable for a specific interview in a specific location and business.

But we need to generalise our advice as much as possible, and so "black captoe" it is.
 
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I get the Prufrock reference now. Again, perhaps my favorite poem. And I quote those I grow old I grow old lines often these days. I must have on B&B! And I guess wearing a blue suit is like parting his hair behind. Or daring to eat a peach. But rather than wear something to look younger I am afraid Mr. Prufrock seemed to reject anything he thought of that would make him seem younger and more vital. Unless white flannels on the beach were considered youthful!

I think you and I violently agree. I would have thought black shoes to be more vital, but I think my younger son would disagree with me and I think folks have disagreed with me on this forum. I do not even like brown shoes with a navy suit. And I think black is better with gray.

I agree that the goal here is to provide a young interviewee with bullet proof advice, without making distinctions that one could make such as geography and industry. I guess it does seem unlikely that a young interviewee would have only a pair of wholecuts. On the other hand, I could be the interviewee and the guy in the video was making a blanket statement!

I just want to make sure I am nit oblivious. Like a patient etherized upon a table. I do not want someone I am trying to impress saying that is not what I meant, not what I meant at all!

Do not ask what is it, let us go and make our visit!
 

Tirvine

ancient grey sweatophile
This got me reminiscing about a lifetime of job interviews, probably about eight jobs, but I am too lazy to count them. For every single interview I wore a grey suit, sometimes solid and sometimes chalk striped, with Alden tassel loafers in color No. 8. It always worked just fine. Foulard ties with striped suits and repp ties with solids. WOCBDs.
 
I agree a cap toe is the ideal interview shoe, but for a flashier sales job, I would wear a wingtip brougie and if I were not so Celtic, perhaps a whole cut. I would usually wear wingtips, anyway, because they suit my style better, and I always got offers.

The main thing is to give examples of good outcomes on the behavioral questions.
 
I take it WOCBD is white oxford cloth button down collar. There is a school of thought that button down collars are too informal to wear with a suit. I quick Google of photos of top CEOs indicates this is not a school with a large alumni among the business elite. Button down collars with suits seems to me a standard prep/Ivy style, Same thing for cuffs with non-pleated trousers. But, as always, I cannot speak for every industry in every geographic location.

I am with Doc4. We are trying to give generic advice as to clothes that are most likely to be seen as conservative, acceptable, non-offensive business attire on a young man in the most places. I own and wear wing tips, but they do not seem "in style" these days, and thus might seem more noticeable on a young man. I like chalk stripes myself, and I suspect they are fine in my profession. I cannot speak for other industries or professions. The guy in the video discouraged chalk stripes.

As John Malloy concluded long ago in Dress for Success, I think rep striped ties are fine with chalk striped suits for American business wear. I think he would say rep striped ties are okay with a striped shirt and a chalk striped suit. I do not think I would go that far. For that matter, I do not see as many rep ties these days as I used to. Foulard with a striped suit might be the safer choice, if anyone had any concerns. The guy in the video warns against wearing rep ties that represent a particular organization that one is not a part of. I guess I would say even if you are a part of such an organization!

Alden tassel loafers in color No. 8
I am not sure. I would discourage loafers for job interviews. But Alden tasseled loafers are a classic and thus arguably a conservative style. As I understand it No. 8 is a intensely dark brown with some red or purple hue to it. Classic shell cordovan color, which some might refer to as oxblood, but to me there is a difference. A perfect dress shoe color to me. Better and more versatile than dark brown as it is a richer color, and can substitute for black in most instances where black might be thought of as required. I do not see a lot of young men wearing this style. I am not a good judge here. I would probably be impressed with real shell cordovan tasseled loafers.

Just my 2 cents though. And, of course, it is most important to be confident, to be prepared, and to give good answers in job interviews.
 
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