Which other stones do I need?

[Aloxite]

I'm trying to put together a set of stones so that I can start honing razors as well as my other knives and woodworking tools.

I started with a King S-3 3" x 7" 6000 grit waterstone that I inherited from my grandfather.

I bought a huge King 1000 grit waterstone on the BST.

I also bought an E.Z. Edge barbers hone on the BST.

I need something that is coarser than the 1000 grit. I'm figuring that I will buy a DMT D8C 8x3. That way I've got something to lap my stones as well as a coarse cutter. Is this a good choice?

What do you think about the gaps I have. Do I need something in between the 1000 and 6000 grit Kings? How about between the 6000 grit and the barbers hone?

 

[Joe Edson]

You could just buy a coti and it will fill the gap from 1K all the way to finisher.

A DMT coarse is good for lapping and serious chip repair, but unless you are planning on buying lots of eBay specials with chips in them, it is not needed.

You can lap your Kings with wet-n-dry sandpaper on a flat surface and save some money that way.

If you want to stay with synthetics, I'm not sure and I bet someone more knowledgeable will chime in.

You may need a 3K to transition from your 1K to 6K, but maybe not.

Depending on your barber hone, it may be a fine finisher or not. Which one do you have?

I know when many people setup there Naniwa's they get 1K, 3K, 5K, 8K, then a finisher.

Long story short, there are many ways to skin a cat. You just need to find what you're most comfortable with.

Me...I would buy a coti and learn to use it. The other day I used my coti from bevel setting all the way to finishing on a razor that had never been honed before and it turned out great.

 

[Aloxite]

I'm mainly thinking about sharpening cutting tools other than razors in regards to the DMT coarse. I do a fair bit of wood carving and general wood butchery and the 1000 grit is too fine to take out any chips from knives, chisels, drawknives and such. So I think the investment will pay off for me.

I don't have it in hand yet but the barbers hone I bought is an E.Z. Edge. I have no idea if it is very suitable for finishing or not.

eta - maybe I need to pick up one of the Chinese 12Ks?

 

[SliceOfLife]

Kings are rated in JIS, so that 6000 is more like 10000... probably about the same or even a bit finer than the barber hone.

I'd get a DMT EE to go in between them. Or a 5k Taidea hone (~$20 cheap chinese carborundum hone I've only ever seen on eBay... usually just sold by grit with no mention of maker).

So far the only ~3-5k grit synthetic bridge stones I've found are the EE (8k but fast enough to go to off 1k), the Norton 4k, Naniwa 3k (Both expensive), the Taidea 5k and the Masahiro (sold as a katana stone on eBay) 3k. If there are more out there I haven't come across them. I've not even looked for ones that cost more than the Norton/Naniwa do. Because that's just too damn much money.

 

[Aloxite]

Thanks for the info. That would mean a fairly substantial gap between the two stones. Maybe enough to justify one of the 4000/8000 Nortons.

I should add that I got the figure of 6000 grit from online listings. So I don't know what system they are using. The box for mine doesn't have any grit numbers. It is marked "King S-3". It is an older stone. At least 25+ years since that is when Gramps passed. Probably 30-35 years old. It has a Mahogony base instead of the plastic bases that are pictured on the new stones. Unfortunately I don't have other stones of that type to compare it to. I do have a Hard Arkansas which feels much smoother than the King S-3. But I'm not sure I can deduce anything from that since it is a natural stone. It's also rather small so I don't think I'd like to rely on it for honing razors.

ETA - I do like the idea of the DMT-EE though. They never would need lapping and are a fairly reasonable price. I might just have to grab a DMT-C and a DMT-EE.

 

[mainaman]

Kings are rated in JIS, so that 6000 is more like 10000... probably about the same or even a bit finer than the barber hone.

May be I am not understanding what you mean, but what is the grit of 10k Super Stone then?
For sure not feeling like anything higher than that.
6k king does not feel like 10k Super Stone when shaving, granted they are not made by the same company but the grit ratings system is same.

@ OP.
IMHO you need 1k 3 or 5k , 8k, 10k stone as optimal set up.
I can't remember if the 6k King is aggressive enough to work 1k scratches fast but it will remove them.
If you have good barbers hone it will be as good if not better than a 10k stone.

 

[ouch]

May be I am not understanding what you mean, but what is the grit of 10k Super Stone then?
For sure not feeling like anything higher than that.
6k king does not feel like 10k Super Stone when shaving, granted they are not made by the same company but the grit ratings system is same.

The King 6K is a 6K and the Naniwa 10K is a 10K. What sliceoflice was alluding to is that other stones (Norton, for example) do not conform to this standard. An 8K Norton is roughly the same grit as a 5K Shapton. could they make this any more confusing?

http://members.cox.net/yuzuha/jisgrit1.html

 

[SliceOfLife]

The King 6K is a 6K and the Naniwa 10K is a 10K. What sliceoflice was alluding to is that other stones (Norton, for example) do not conform to this standard. An 8K Norton is roughly the same grit as a 5K Shapton. could they make this any more confusing?

http://members.cox.net/yuzuha/jisgrit1.html

What Ouch said.

I'm more used to people using the Norton standard (though the JIS would make more sense since JIS covers a MUCH larger range of grits). And I haven't done the exact math (theoretical since Norton standard stops at 8k iirc) but I think a Naniwa 10k would be in the mid 13000 to low 14000's on it. 12k is 15-16k if I recall (I did the math on that one a LONG time ago).

 

[Aloxite]

I worked over a couple of pocket knives with the King 1000 and King 6000. It did seem like quite a jump between grits and required a bunch of time to polish out the bevels but it did work. I worked up a mirror finish that is probably too smooth for a standard pocket knife finish.

I think that I will try to hone a razor using just those two stones and the linen and leather strops.

The question still stands if anyone else wants to add their input. If you had a King 1000 and a King 6000 what would you add to complete the set?

 

[Seraphim]

Q:

What other hones do I need?



B&B answer:




All of them!

 

[Nerdman]

Q:

What other hones do I need?



B&B answer:




All of them!

And the AD begins. lol.

 

[Aloxite]

Well add a Chinese 12k to the list. I just bought one on the BST. I guess I've got my finisher covered.

 

[Blue58]

I've not even looked for ones that cost more than the Norton/Naniwa do. Because that's just too damn much money.

I was looking the other day at hones on ebay and everyone is offering the chinese and japanese waterstones, I only found like 6 Nortons for sale. everything else was in the $20 - $30 range. I think if Norton wants to stay in the game their prices will have to come down.

 

[dakotaev]

Sorry if this is considered a hijack.

You've got me a bit inquisitive now.

I've got a Norton 1K 4/8K and a King Brand 8K which I haven't been using since I got the Norton 8K. I don't have anything higher than these, should I be using my King 8K to finish after the Norton 8K ?

Thanks love all the help you guys give around here!

 

[mainaman]

Sorry if this is considered a hijack.

You've got me a bit inquisitive now.

I've got a Norton 1K 4/8K and a King Brand 8K which I haven't been using since I got the Norton 8K. I don't have anything higher than these, should I be using my King 8K to finish after the Norton 8K ?

Thanks love all the help you guys give around here!

I do not think you will improve on the Norton edge following with King.
Get 12k Super stone and that will give you the best edge you can get without getting into Eschers or Jnats.

 

[Seraphim]

I do not think you will improve on the Norton edge following with King.
Get 12k Super stone and that will give you the best edge you can get without getting into Eschers or Jnats.

Good advice here.

 

[SliceOfLife]

King 8k... as in the "King Finishing Stone"? I seem to recall that being what Woodcraft sells it as.

It's much finer than a Norton 8k (Remember Norton isn't rated in JIS, 8k Norton is 3 micron. 8k King is ~1.2micron), so yes it should follow the Norton. If you do get a Nani 12k (finer still) it'd be up to you whether you wanted to keep the king in there or go from the Norton to the Nani.

And I would put coti, my vintage black ark (some trans), a pair of unidentified random slates I got in lots off the Bay, and three of my yellow lakes (fourth is NOS and I haven't gotten around to lapping and using it yet) above a naniwa 12k personally. I find Naniwa 12k edges a bit of a step up from the better barber synths, but a noticeable step down from any natural stone I'd consider using as a finisher. I'm curious about the 15/16k shaps though... although they should be comparable to Nani 12k as per specs I've heard that their rating system is much less generous.

 

[taffy]

I worked over a couple of pocket knives with the King 1000 and King 6000. It did seem like quite a jump between grits and required a bunch of time to polish out the bevels but it did work. I worked up a mirror finish that is probably too smooth for a standard pocket knife finish.

I think that I will try to hone a razor using just those two stones and the linen and leather strops.

The question still stands if anyone else wants to add their input. If you had a King 1000 and a King 6000 what would you add to complete the set?

There is a online uk shop that sells the king 600/1250 combo, which i suppose would be a in between stone for the king 1000/6000, also they sell a japanese 4000 stone, though i did read on another forum that the king 1000/6000 and a c12k is a good starter set to hone up razors!

 

[Woodash]

[Blasphemy]
I would also consider a 330mate stone off of the Bay. Everyone seems to diss this guy, but you could spend ~half (or less) of what it would cost for a 12K Naniwa and get a hone that is likely to be in the neighborhood of ~20K. No - it doesn't have a Maruka stamp, and yes, there is some element of uncertainty in not knowing about the exact stone you're getting, but on balance, it's a great bang for the buck.
[/Blasphemy]

 

[SliceOfLife]

My 330mate stone is a great little stone for the $30 it cost me... But...

1. It's not even close to 20. It's an ungodly fast 10-11k. By ungodly fast I mean I can go from my 1200 dmt to maxed out (~10k) on this stone in 100-150 passes... that's damned fast.

2. It was sold as a "Razor hone", but it's probably not actually suitable for razors. It has a very imperfect surface. The stone isn't uniform, there are large gaps throughout it as well as some inclusions that are harder than steel, once you know the stone you can work around these things, but I am almost certain this stone was tossed aside as worthless and that's why it's being sold sight unseen on eBay for like $10 after eBay fee's and shipping. I've spent more on lunch than 330mate see's from these $25 razor hones he sells, so don't think you're getting anything close to what you'll get from a $100+ stone.