.25, .50, .75, 1?
Which is the better for keeping an edge fresh?
Which is the better for keeping an edge fresh?
Which diamond paste for balsa strop?
- Thread starter JGKC9AYC
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rbscebu
Girls call me Makaluod
None of the above. The size to use is 0.1μm (about 200k grit).
In order from worse to best:
0.25μm
0.5μm
1.0μm
0.1μm
Don't ask me why. This is what has been reported by many who have tried them all (myself included).
In order from worse to best:
0.25μm
0.5μm
1.0μm
0.1μm
Don't ask me why. This is what has been reported by many who have tried them all (myself included).
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
After regular honing and finishing on 1μ lapping film or 12k Japanese synthetic, you can go to balsa. The balsa will not make a dull razor sharp. it will make a sharp razor sharper. You really need to read the entire thread on the pasted balsa for best results. You will not get best possible results if you just freestyle it. Serious.
How To Use a Pasted Balsa Strop | Badger & Blade
Read it, beginning to end. Do like it says. Read it. Beginning to end. Much about The Method evolved quickly over a short period of time, only a couple of years. So the way it was done by the end of the thread was not exactly how it was done in the beginning. This is part of what we call The Method of honing. The balsa is the part that sets it apart from all other ways to hone. If you try to just DO it without understanding it, you will nOT get the results everyone else gets. If you really want this to work with you. then regard what seems to be the smallest or most unimportant detail as dogma to be followed to the letter. THEN you will be amazed, and not until.
For a spoiler, let me say that you begin with .5μ and then .25μ and finally the .1μ. The .1μ is the maintainer. You use it after every shave. But it will not work until you have ran through the other two balsas first, and after beginning with what other lesser mortals regard as a sharp edge from a conventional finisher.
Read the thread. All will be revealed.
the man speaketh the truth.
rigorous adherence to the details yields results!
camo
I've read the thread once, working through it again, but I have a question. Specifically, I have a couple razors that I've honed on film down to .3u over paper and are, I think, pretty sharp (silent, significant treetopping at a 1/4"). In order to take these through the Method, would you still hit the .5 and .25 diamond first, or just the .25 and .1? For other razors, I'm assuming there's no need to hone past 1u before going to the pasted balsa. Is that correct?
I'm going to be trying this very soon. I finally got my diamond paste and balsa now I just need to get a substrate, probably just some acrylic and then I'll need to refresh some edges since I've been stropping with leather and linen.
essentially it should work. but for the balsa, don't do the .3 over paper. do the film on substrate, then the balsa. the .3 on paper is convexing the bevel sightly to give a bit smoother face feel. the .3 on substrate is likely to feel keen but harsh. if you're working on film, you can go from say 1u to balsa with .5, .25, .1. when I was doing film honing, I ended up stopping at 1u for comfort. I never liked .5 or .25 either with Crox/Inox, CBNs, or diamond pastes because of their harshness in face feel. going to .1 is the game changer for a smooth, hypersharp edge. I honestly can't say that .3 film to .25 on balsa is equal to or better than .5, .25, .1 on balsa. balsa has more give to it than a hard substrate under film.
you can go from essentially any finisher to .5 on balsa, but the lower the grit finisher you're using, the deeper the striations you're leaving and the longer you'll need to stay at .5. what I'm saying here is probably contrary to Slash's recommendations, and takes more knowledge to get to the same result. if you do the method and learn it as Slash says, you'll get repeatable, sharp edges. from there... you can play around with techniques with a better scientific method and base konwledge, if that makes sense.
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
Most of us do not like the .3μ film edge. It feels rather harsh on the face. Some guys have use .3μ film as the stepping off point instead of 1μ film or 12k stone, bypassing the .5μ balsa and shaved happily with the razor, yes. Most agree that 1μ film followed by the standard three stage balsa progression yields a slightly superior edge. This is kind of subjective, of course. The Method spells out in detail, stopping at 1μ film and jumping to .5μ diamond paste on lapped and backed balsa, and progressing from there. Take it how you feel it.
Now, allow me to delve into philosophy a bit. "Violating" the principles of Method honing will not necessarily reduce edge quality significantly. Sometimes yeah, sometimes not. Sometimes it won't matter enough to notice. Sometimes, dare I say it, it doesn't matter at all. The problem is, you are stepping away from what is proven, and exploring the unproven. Nothing is "wrong" with that. Another school of thought is that there is little point in over-thinking this, since simply rubbing razor to rock will generally make the razor shave. Also, skill and experience are earned over time and over many razors. Your own technique, once you are skilled, is a product of what you have become good at, what has worked well for you, and simply what your preference is. An old timer who has honed thousands of razors probably will not be interested in how someone else hones, and will not get the most out of studying The Method, and will scoff at what he sees as unimportant minutae. He is already getting results that he likes, doing it his way. The Method is meant mainly for raw beginners, or relative newcomers who are not satisfied with their edges, not for someone set in his ways. At its foundation, The Method is a detailed and dogmatic recipe/checklist that is meant to be followed with zero deviation. Can a beginner make a bad decision in a particular step? Of course. Will it effect the edge? Probably, but maybe not much. Can he make a hundred small mistakes? Absolutely. There are SO MANY variables it boggles the mind. The more minor but bad decisions, the more the edge is effected. Eventually, left to his own devices, a beginner, even when told in great detail a way or various ways to get a great edge, will put together enough mistakes to fail. Given time, he will learn by experience to create a decent edge. Eventually, even a very good edge. The Method lays it all out so that a complete newbie can create a better than professional edge on the first attempt, and if not, by the second or at most the third try. The degree of success in that very first attempt relies strictly on following instructions to the letter. No decisions are made, rightly or wrongly. Nothing left to chance. It is like, as I have said before, doing a paint by numbers portrait of Elvis in sequins, or "Dogs Playing Poker", for the living room wall of your single wide trailer. You don't have to be an artist, only follow the instructions. And your completed work should be as good as the next guy's. The Method is like that. It is not meant to be half followed. If you want to half follow it or change little details, you are no longer Method honing. You are rocking your own thing, and power to you. But The Method no longer gots your back.
There are infinite paths to a decent edge. There are many paths to an great edge. There are fewer paths to an astonishing edge. The Method is a proven path to the astonishing category, and many believe it to be the path to the best edge that can be had, within the realm of the affordable and practical. I certainly believe so. I seldom deviate from it, at least from the 1u/12k onwards.
Many other styles of honing are presented in such a dogmatic manner. I could point to a style of honing that we used to ridicule but actually does work reasonably well for beginners because it does not leave room for random actions or decisions. This was the infamous "Pyramid Honing" technique. There is much fault to find with it, but oddly enough, those who simply followed instructions would eventually make their razor sharp. And by eventually, I don't mean eventually like "rub razor on rock, repeat as necessary" eventually. A much abbreviated eventually. The concept of presenting a very detailed set of instructions rather than a simple example or some tentative suggestions, works. If bad decisions can compromise the results, then remove the decisions and problem solved.
I am, and others are, often asked if it is okay to change THIS or okay to drop THAT or okay to add THIS or to do a certain step differently or substitute thing B for thing A. It is okay to do whatever you want. But it would not be The Method and The Method no longer gots your back.
The Method was established through experimentation. It was improved by experimentation done by those who had learned the value of The Method and had experience and success with it. Once in a while someone tries something that achieves consensus among Method honers as being an improvement, and it becomes part of the dogma. But it is still dogma, and the recommendation to a beginner is to follow it dogmatically. In that vein, when asked if it is okay to do this or that differently, I will generally answer that it is okay to do whatever you like, but it is recommended to follow The Method, without deviation, because it is accepted and proven and has a very good chance of giving you superstar level edges right out of the box. No trial and error, no frustration, no false starts and backtracking, no buying full progressions in 7 different types of stones and trying to find the one that is best for you, and so on.
Many guys get the bug, and don't see anything but fierce joy coming from the purchase of different types of stones or different equipment and methods. That is okay, perfectly valid. There are guys out here who have multiple tens of thousands of dollars tied up in honing gear, I am sure, and $1k worth of stones and nagura or slurry stones is probably not much more than average, after 10 years or so of honing. You will not hear many regrets, either. Some guys like trying different stuff even more than shaving with their edges. This is perfectly valid! What's wrong with HAVING FUN, even if it costs a little extra? Even if it takes longer to get skilled? What is wrong with taking up the challenge and going deeper into the rabbit hole? Not a thing! And I encourage you, after creating a dozen or two dozen insane Method edges, to try something else. When you change The Method, it is something else, and is no longer The Method. Take that how you will.
I appreciate the philosophical reply, Slash. I was really only wondering what to do with the two .3u edges since they were outside the Method already. I may just leave them for the sake of comparison and methodize the others as prescribed from 1u through the pasted balsas.
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
Keeping them as they are for a control group for now is a good idea, yeah. You can always apply a different finish later on.
Finally got my balsa set up tonight. Took a humble Shumate that I previously finished on an ILR and took it through the progression. It definitely is sharper by any objective test (floating armhair and HHT). I just shaved with it yesterday and it was quite comfortable so I'll try it in the morning and see how the shave compares.
Shave report: yes it is sharp, as promised. Probably the best edge I've used yet for my stubborn chin whiskers, although I have a couple that come close. It is unforgiving, as promised. But it is overall a little more comfortable than the edges I've finished on .3u film over paper and a bit sharper. It is not as comfortable as my ILR edges but it is noticeably sharper than those. I'm guessing as I dial in my shave technique the comfort level may change.
I have a couple of other razors that I need to touch up to 1u and then I will Methodize them. They're all different enough blades that I think it will be a good learning experience. The prospect of having a crispy edge like this every time I shave is pretty great, though. I may keep a natural edge on one or two for variety, but I kind of think I won't be using a .3u film edge any more.
I have a couple of other razors that I need to touch up to 1u and then I will Methodize them. They're all different enough blades that I think it will be a good learning experience. The prospect of having a crispy edge like this every time I shave is pretty great, though. I may keep a natural edge on one or two for variety, but I kind of think I won't be using a .3u film edge any more.
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
You will very likely find that if you maintain with 50 laps on the .1u after every shave, that after about 10 or 12 sessions the edge will be improved even more. Don't forget to add a few pull strokes and short X strokes. That will really up your game.
It is important to use good shave technique with a Method edge. Tight stretching, and lowwwww shave angle. If you are not used to that level of sharpness it may give you a nick or two, maybe some excessive exfoliation. But if you do everything right you do get a surprisingly comfortable shave, especially since you can generally get away with a single pass, or two at the most. You won't need three passes, that's for sure.
rbscebu
Girls call me Makaluod
After initially finishing an edge with a diamond pasted balsa strop progression, stropping on clean leather and shaving, I put that edge through another full diamond pasted balsa strop progression after that shave. I keep on doing this after each shave until I find that it provides no further improvement of the edge. I then drop down to 0.25μm and 0.1μm after each shave, again until I find that it provides no further improvement of the edge. From then on, it is just 0.1μm after each shave.
The short X strokes at the end of the 0.1μm stropping are also important for a more comfortable shave. I normally do about 15 to 20. Those strokes put an X "scratch" pattern on the bevel that further helps to prevent stiction between bevel and skin while shaving.
The above all works well for me.
The short X strokes at the end of the 0.1μm stropping are also important for a more comfortable shave. I normally do about 15 to 20. Those strokes put an X "scratch" pattern on the bevel that further helps to prevent stiction between bevel and skin while shaving.
The above all works well for me.
Thinking about repeating this for 1-2 of my harder steel razors. One run of 50/50/50 will max out most of my razors, but on a few of them I still have a touch of sharp/harsh feeling when I am done. While I rotate razors often I did do a single razor for a full month in March. I did the Method Progression 5 days into the month with the expected improvement occurring and the edge did continue to gradually improve for the rest of the month with just repeated application of the 0.1u balsa.
Oops. Shouldn’t it be 1.0, 0.5, 0.25, 0.1?
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
No, he meant the preferred grit for maintaining. I agree with his choice order, The LAST grit you would want to use for maintaining would be .25μ. The best would be .1μ and the next best would be 1μ because .25μ and .5μ make the edge feel harsh to most users. The .1μ gentles it down. the 1μ feels a little smoother than a 12k Naniwa edge done with plain water. However, we usually do not actually use 1μ diamond on balsa.
Okay. We’re on the same page. I was listing in the order used in the initial honing order rather than maintenance. My degree was English Lit and he is an engineer. Should have known better than comment
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