I want to try putting a surgical black somewhere in my hone progression. For now I would be going from a norton 8k then either the black or a C12 or vice versa depending on fineness. Keep in mind that the black has never had a blade on it since it was lapped at the mine so it is probably a little coarser than it will be when it breaks in. So before the C12 or after? Or just try it and see which smooths the others scratch pattern?
Where to put Black Ark in progression
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It needs to be lapped by you before using it on a razor. I've never seen one that was anywhere near flat, much less smooth.
I'm sorry to see such a poor response because I have seen some large surgical black stoned I wanted to try. My budget is just too tight to buy experimental stones. From my general readings they are not popular for razors though I have watched Livi use one as his last hone in a progression.
Hopefully someone will chime in soon.
Hopefully someone will chime in soon.
I remember hearing someone say that they are around a 12k-16K if you lap them on a 8k+ stone. However, due to cost it is easier to find a suitable stone for cheaper.
U
Utopian
I suspect that you already know that is the strategy you're going to have to use. This is especially the case since there differences between individual natural stones.
Some yrs back i picked up a dirty 'ol stone at an antiques for $3. Turned out to be a brown translucent Ark. Nobody really knows the grits on Arks as i guess it varies. From my understanding black ark is courser than mine because translucents have the smallest crystals. I've never heard any Ark being 12-16k though. I believe norton ranks theirs about 4k. You are right in that the more you use it the smoother/finer the crystals and grit gets. From my experience it takes FOREVER to lap & hone, but does give a nice edge. I would use 12k last. Hopefully someone will chime in with some verifiable facts, cause i would like to know too.
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Arkansas stones do not have a grit rating because they have no grit . Simple as that . That said they tend to fall in the ANSI or american grit scale .
The stone grading is mainly due to stone density . Denser stone makes it finer . They are all the same material called novaculite . So a medium "grit" Arkansas soft is still novaculite . Novaculite is a very hard quartz material .
The black hard or surgical black is a very fine stone . These create a very smooth edge under a microscope . You will see zero scratches with this stone . Even the white hard Arkansas which is the next lower stone leaves a really smooth edge . The white hard starts the polishing process . Black and translucent are ultra polishing stones .
Price wise the black hard 6"x2" is $49.95 . I have this stone and it's very flat and ready to use out of the box . Also these are very hard so no need to lap frequently like Nortons , if ever . And where it counts most are the edges these Arkansas stones provide . My opinion is there is no other on the market that would even come close to leaving these in the dust so to speak .
http://www.kmesharp.com/dans-hard-black-arkansas-stone---extra-fine-grit.html
The surgical black came from the medical field . Where surgeons wanted a tool to make their instruments as sharp as possible . What was the best tool around ?? Arkansas stones baby . The now infamous "surgical" black .
Arkansas stones are not popular for razors because they are not the newest latest and greatest stones on the market . They have been around for over 100 years and still going strong . Must be doing something right .
cityjim
The stone grading is mainly due to stone density . Denser stone makes it finer . They are all the same material called novaculite . So a medium "grit" Arkansas soft is still novaculite . Novaculite is a very hard quartz material .
The black hard or surgical black is a very fine stone . These create a very smooth edge under a microscope . You will see zero scratches with this stone . Even the white hard Arkansas which is the next lower stone leaves a really smooth edge . The white hard starts the polishing process . Black and translucent are ultra polishing stones .
Price wise the black hard 6"x2" is $49.95 . I have this stone and it's very flat and ready to use out of the box . Also these are very hard so no need to lap frequently like Nortons , if ever . And where it counts most are the edges these Arkansas stones provide . My opinion is there is no other on the market that would even come close to leaving these in the dust so to speak .
http://www.kmesharp.com/dans-hard-black-arkansas-stone---extra-fine-grit.html
The surgical black came from the medical field . Where surgeons wanted a tool to make their instruments as sharp as possible . What was the best tool around ?? Arkansas stones baby . The now infamous "surgical" black .
Arkansas stones are not popular for razors because they are not the newest latest and greatest stones on the market . They have been around for over 100 years and still going strong . Must be doing something right .
cityjim
Of course they do. The quartz crystals in the novaculite do have a range of grit ratings. They're not all the same size, but that's true of any abrasive, even industrial diamond abrasives.
The bigger problem (and this may be what you were alluding to) is that the finish that the stones put on the blade isn't really related to the particle size the way it is with waterstones or abrasive pastes. This is because the particles don't dislodge from the stone with use, they become worn and rounded and leave shallower scratches on the steel. With something like diamond, the size of the particle tells you something useful about the depth of the scratch, but this isn't really true with novaculite or other oilstones.
True. All arkansas stones have the same basic set of quartz abrasive in them, the difference is the amount of soft filler between the quartz particles. The farther apart the abrasives are spaced the deeper they cut, conversely the closer they're packed the shallower they cut. Extremely fine stones like the black and translucent arkansas stones have very little filler in them (which is why the translucent is translucent - it's almost all quartz).
This is why arkansas stones are graded by density, not particle size. The density tells you the ratio of quartz to filler in the stone. Blacks and translucents are the densest stones. Actually they have the same allowable density range, which means blacks and translucents are as equivalent to each other as two blacks or two translucents are to each other.
I'm sure that plays a part - Charnley Forest hones are also novaculite like arkansas hones and they enjoyed a few months of popularity on these forums due to their novelty. But it's not the main reason for arkansas' unpopularity - after all coticules have a much longer history as a razor hone but are much more popular around here than arkansas stones. The bigger problems with arkansas stones are that (a) they're extremely slow (b) they're expensive (c) they're not very flexible compared to a N4/k8, coticule, thuringen, or jnat (d) they're a cast-iron b*tch to lap. The stone they're probably most comparable to is the PHIG except that one is only $10 or so.
Arkansas stones work, and can even work extremely well if you've got some spare time to burn. Honemeisters generally don't have this sort of time, and they're the driving force behind hone popularity. I'm not a honemeister so I do have that sort of time, and have been honing razors on my arks for about 4 years now. But unless you just really like arkansas stones there are much better choices around for use on razors.
OTOH coticules have been around for over 2000 years (Caesar mentions them in his De Bello Gallico) and still going strong, so by that logic they're at least 20x righter than arkansas stones.
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- #10
I wonder if lapping the black ark on my C12k would do anything other than age me? Suppose it couldn't hurt to try but I guess I should sneak up on it with a progression of grits of wet-dry sandpaper first, don't think the C12 would remove the scratchs left by the 220 stone I just lapped the ark with.
Lap on 400 grit wet/dry until its flat, then on 800, then maybe 1000 if you've got it. Then use it. It'll smooth out just fine with use, the edge won't be that great at first until it finally gets broken in and the quartz particles get nice and smooth.
Lapping on a waterstone that produces a slurry does more to remove the binder than it does the quartz particles - this makes the stone *more* aggressive since the abrasive is more exposed.
Lapping on a waterstone that produces a slurry does more to remove the binder than it does the quartz particles - this makes the stone *more* aggressive since the abrasive is more exposed.
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- #12
I picked up an assortment package of wet/dry this afternoon, 220, 400, 800, 1000 and going to give the black a few more laps. After what the chinese rock did to my D8C I'm saving it for waterstones only from now on.
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- #13
I decided to have a go at lapping the arks with a progression of grits and I have to agree with a previous poster, they are a cast-iron b*tch to lap. My original plan was to lap both sides of a soft, hard, and surgical black as well as lap the unlapped side of my C12k. I almost got one side of each of the arks lapped before the 220 paper lost it's bite and had to use a new sheet. My plan quickly changed to lap ONE side and also not to take the soft and hard any higher than 220. I just finished lapping the C12k and surigical black on 400 paper and though polishing on the 400 wasn't as painful as getting them flat in the first place that surigical black still wanted to work me. The C12k felt like lapping a norton waterstone compared to the arks. If smoothness is a valid indicator, at this point it seems the C12k is going to be the finer of the two.
The arkansas seems to lap faster with a slightly finer grit paper than 120, I prefer lapping with 300 or 400 grit wet/dry. Not sure why this is. You're right they're a b*tch to lap, fortunately you only have to do this once.
What's your opinion on doing the final polishing of an Arkansas stone on another Arkansas stone? Say, lapping a translucent Arkansas with a lapped true hard Arkansas?
You want some tooth in the stone - you don't want it to be as smooth as glass at the microscopic level, only the macro level. Finish lapping with 800 grit wet/dry then just use it a bit and let it finish breaking in naturally.
One thing I have done after lapping for flatness, in order to recover a bit of tooth, is to lap with a bit of shapton lapping compound to help abrade away some of the binder in between the quartz particles so they stand a little prouder.
One thing I have done after lapping for flatness, in order to recover a bit of tooth, is to lap with a bit of shapton lapping compound to help abrade away some of the binder in between the quartz particles so they stand a little prouder.
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- #17
Actually the surgical black and translucent have the same density range. The folks at Hall's told me that their surgical blacks are actually finer than the translucents they carry.
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- #18
That's intresting. How do you use the lapping compound and where can you get it?
Sprinkle a bit on and spritz it with some water to make a slurry, then rub the two hones together for awhile. I don't remember where I got it, I bought it about four years ago when I got my first Shapton hones and and lapping plate. I would think that any Shapton retailer would carry it. It's the white powder that's intended for lapping their high grit hones on their iron lapping plate.
Interesting. I wonder if it's just due to the particular mine they're using that tends to produce higher-density blacks than it does translucents, or what else it could be.
