- Thread starter
- #21
Exactly! That’s why I often feel like I’m not getting a good read until around 8,000…
When to Verify Bevel Setting Striation Removal
- Thread starter lightfoot
- Start date
Doing a couple sets of circles in sets of 10 or so on the first stone after the bevel set, with light synthetic slurry will remove a lot of steel quickly.
After the circles, do X laps or half laps to remove all the circle stria. That should remove the bulk of the deep stria. Rinse your stone and do lighter pressure finish laps on a clean stone to straighten the edge and make a uniform stria pattern.
On the bevel setter you can also joint the edge and do a series of lite finish laps to reduce the stria height and bring the bevels back to meeting. Light finish bevel setting laps will make removing deep bevel setting stria much easier on the next stone.
After the circles, do X laps or half laps to remove all the circle stria. That should remove the bulk of the deep stria. Rinse your stone and do lighter pressure finish laps on a clean stone to straighten the edge and make a uniform stria pattern.
On the bevel setter you can also joint the edge and do a series of lite finish laps to reduce the stria height and bring the bevels back to meeting. Light finish bevel setting laps will make removing deep bevel setting stria much easier on the next stone.
Just for informational purposes , about how many laps do you end up doing on the 8K?
- Thread starter
- #24
I had been doing a brief set of half-strokes followed by a trip down the hone with circles on each side. And finally around 15-20 X-strokes.
I’ve been making some pressure adjustments at earlier stages as well in an attempt to not create unnecessary work later on and that’s actually been a productive effort. That’s been happening since I first posted this thread BTW.
FWIW - honing by feel is not an abstract concept. It's the foundation of honing/sharpening; i.e. - feedback.
If learning it is problematic, get offline and go hone until it makes sense. Talking/writing/reading about it won't do it. I realize that people want to promote formulas, work arounds, new theories, and stuff like honing on scales or timing their honing with a stop watch. The list of that noise never ends because there's loads of creators needing to put their thumbprint on a wheel that doesn't need to be reinvented.
I prefer to keep it simple, it either feels right or it does not. There are no magic bullets, no parlor tricks, no cliff notes, and no secret sauce. It is easy to figure out, and yes it takes time and effort to learn.
Obviously, 1k work is cleared on the following stone. Lets say 3k. Going to the next stone after that - lets say 5k, can tell you if the 3k work was done correctly. So the first tell is on 3k. The confirmation is done on the next stone after. But 'Can' does not mean 'Will' 100% of the time.
Learning the feel of each step matters. Bad feedback on 5k might indicate bad 1k work... not a missed 3k effort.
Learning the 1k feel means that problem won't be an issue. Spending gobs of time trying to see the errant 30k scratches hiding in the shrubbery, fine, whatever floats yer boat. But everyone should know that learning to feel that mess is possible and eradicating it will become second nature.
If learning it is problematic, get offline and go hone until it makes sense. Talking/writing/reading about it won't do it. I realize that people want to promote formulas, work arounds, new theories, and stuff like honing on scales or timing their honing with a stop watch. The list of that noise never ends because there's loads of creators needing to put their thumbprint on a wheel that doesn't need to be reinvented.
I prefer to keep it simple, it either feels right or it does not. There are no magic bullets, no parlor tricks, no cliff notes, and no secret sauce. It is easy to figure out, and yes it takes time and effort to learn.
Obviously, 1k work is cleared on the following stone. Lets say 3k. Going to the next stone after that - lets say 5k, can tell you if the 3k work was done correctly. So the first tell is on 3k. The confirmation is done on the next stone after. But 'Can' does not mean 'Will' 100% of the time.
Learning the feel of each step matters. Bad feedback on 5k might indicate bad 1k work... not a missed 3k effort.
Learning the 1k feel means that problem won't be an issue. Spending gobs of time trying to see the errant 30k scratches hiding in the shrubbery, fine, whatever floats yer boat. But everyone should know that learning to feel that mess is possible and eradicating it will become second nature.
- Thread starter
- #26
So what I’m about to say is just one person‘s opinion and I don’t think anyone is ever going to mistake me for a honing prodigy.
Not everyone has the level of feel that others may have developed that have been honing for an long time and those people will have to find another way. Those that haven’t developed the feel we’re talking about here have to find something that can produce a good working edge in the meantime. And hopefully one can develop the kind of feel you’re describing over time through some kind of framework or template-based approach.
I take notes and I might track my time. If 15 minutes on a Coticule didn’t get me there maybe I need to go 20 especially if I couldn’t pick up on any felt changes.
Am I using too much pressure and making more work for myself than I should later? Then maybe I need to back off my pressure but by how much? Ok so I might do some work on a scale to get a sense of what 16oz feels like vs 6oz even if those numbers can’t be taken as gospel.
I’ve never tried any of that stuff for the sake of novelty or self-promotion but rather to get a sense of making adjustments in more or less specific terms.
Then if I can get a working process that I can get some traction with I can use that as a vehicle to explore this thing called feel Because you can’t roam in Rome if you’re really roaming….
That’s the best I can do on this day and maybe tomorrow I’ll be better
Not everyone has the level of feel that others may have developed that have been honing for an long time and those people will have to find another way. Those that haven’t developed the feel we’re talking about here have to find something that can produce a good working edge in the meantime. And hopefully one can develop the kind of feel you’re describing over time through some kind of framework or template-based approach.
I take notes and I might track my time. If 15 minutes on a Coticule didn’t get me there maybe I need to go 20 especially if I couldn’t pick up on any felt changes.
Am I using too much pressure and making more work for myself than I should later? Then maybe I need to back off my pressure but by how much? Ok so I might do some work on a scale to get a sense of what 16oz feels like vs 6oz even if those numbers can’t be taken as gospel.
I’ve never tried any of that stuff for the sake of novelty or self-promotion but rather to get a sense of making adjustments in more or less specific terms.
Then if I can get a working process that I can get some traction with I can use that as a vehicle to explore this thing called feel Because you can’t roam in Rome if you’re really roaming….
That’s the best I can do on this day and maybe tomorrow I’ll be better
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As someone who has been doing this for about 2.5 years, I can relate to what you are saying.
Based on my experience, people who have mastered certain skills have spent time consciously thinking about stuff it's just that as they begin to master the skill they have less need to think about all this stuff. You begin to develop intuition and your subconscious begins to play a larger role.
My recommendation is to play with this stuff (like a child plays with their toys), trying out different ideas, and to keep notes. And if you miss the mark the first time, take a break, lick your wounds, and try again.
Take pressure as an example. Too much pressure and you will flex the edge and increase the width of the bevel reveal. Too little pressure and will fail to make progress or your progress will be slow. How much pressure? That depends on the razor and the stone. But there are principles. I am convinced that you need to apply enough pressure to imprint the DNA of the stone into the steel and then you need to reduce the pressure as you finish that step in the progression.
Try different amounts of pressure until you produce an edge that you are happy with. Then you will know.
,,,,,and those people will have to find another way.
That is false. No one has to do anything....
While it is true that some people have not developed honing skills, those skills are available and readily attainable. Anyone trying to learn to hone can learn feedback. Learning feedback eliminates a lot of (most or all actually) hurdles that we read about endlessly.
Choosing to not develop that skill is always an option, sure. But claiming that there are people who MUST obviate it, is way too elitist for me to be ok with it.
Pretending that learning feedback is the skill of wizards only is utter nonsense. If someone is having difficulty with that phase of learning, I help them through it. If someone is diligent they can get it down in under 12 honing sessions but even if it takes double that - what is the problem, really? Telling someone that they won't be able to find their way the same as everyone else doesn't make sense to me. Feedback isn't a mysterious thing. People insisting on their being a silver bullet will look for the work arounds though. Thing is, eventually - the majority of them, if they stick with it - and most don't - usually come around to realizing that taking short cuts, cuts you short.
When I watch someone competent at sharpening, it's all in their hands and fingers. It's not counting, it's not microscopes, it's not units of time, or bathroom scales, etc.
Honing isn't hard. It's not difficult. Anyone can do it. That is what I choose to promote. If I can do it, so can anyone. It is not a god-given talent and it has nothing to do with being a prodigy or not. It is simply rubbing steel on rocks. In Japan they teach sharpening in school, grades 1-6.
Learning to feel the blade on the stone is one of the simplest things out there. Yes, setting benchmarks will take effort and yes it might take some time and yes some will 'get it' before some others. Such is life.
That is false. No one has to do anything....
While it is true that some people have not developed honing skills, those skills are available and readily attainable. Anyone trying to learn to hone can learn feedback. Learning feedback eliminates a lot of (most or all actually) hurdles that we read about endlessly.
Choosing to not develop that skill is always an option, sure. But claiming that there are people who MUST obviate it, is way too elitist for me to be ok with it.
Pretending that learning feedback is the skill of wizards only is utter nonsense. If someone is having difficulty with that phase of learning, I help them through it. If someone is diligent they can get it down in under 12 honing sessions but even if it takes double that - what is the problem, really? Telling someone that they won't be able to find their way the same as everyone else doesn't make sense to me. Feedback isn't a mysterious thing. People insisting on their being a silver bullet will look for the work arounds though. Thing is, eventually - the majority of them, if they stick with it - and most don't - usually come around to realizing that taking short cuts, cuts you short.
When I watch someone competent at sharpening, it's all in their hands and fingers. It's not counting, it's not microscopes, it's not units of time, or bathroom scales, etc.
Honing isn't hard. It's not difficult. Anyone can do it. That is what I choose to promote. If I can do it, so can anyone. It is not a god-given talent and it has nothing to do with being a prodigy or not. It is simply rubbing steel on rocks. In Japan they teach sharpening in school, grades 1-6.
Learning to feel the blade on the stone is one of the simplest things out there. Yes, setting benchmarks will take effort and yes it might take some time and yes some will 'get it' before some others. Such is life.
- Thread starter
- #29
So I will concede to your point that no one has to do anything in an absolute sense but I definitely didn’t suggest that those with good feel amounted to the supernatural or that using a template-based approach was preferable. All I’ve suggested is that in the meantime there do seem to be some good working templates so that you can at least have a decent shave before the day is over. I don’t think that would circumvent the need for learning to feel the changes as time goes on.
Our levels of experience are vastly different and as a consequence our views are just gonna be really far apart.
Our levels of experience are vastly different and as a consequence our views are just gonna be really far apart.
In other words, hone, and when you’re done honing hone some more until things start to make sense. If you do this your mistakes will continue to be make themselves obvious until they are addressed. The thing about prescribed progressions whether it was developed by Lynn or Gary Haywood for example, is that they are progressions broken down into numerical strokes for the purpose of being a teaching tool, they are essentially their personal honing cadences and procedures translated to show their personal process. These cats are not counting anything, they are definitely honing by feel, when you honing enough (enough is not a predetermined amount) you, and anyone else will develop their own individual process, that is the ultimate goal.
Feedback is multifactorial. Tactile/auditory, visual (undercut, swarf or lack of it, magnification), thumbnail test, cutting tests, shave tests...ultimately you have to learn to correlate all those things. With experience you can learn to rely on the tactile feedback more but at first you're kind of flying blind. It takes time, making mistakes, and trying again.
For "feel" especially, a lot of things impact how obvious or subtle it is. The stone, the size and grind of the razor, tape on the spine...lots of variables. I'm getting better at it but I still check my work with a loupe a lot on the early stages especially.
Spending time with the same razor and stones can help a lot.
For "feel" especially, a lot of things impact how obvious or subtle it is. The stone, the size and grind of the razor, tape on the spine...lots of variables. I'm getting better at it but I still check my work with a loupe a lot on the early stages especially.
Spending time with the same razor and stones can help a lot.
Talking about what "to do in the meantime" when the thing to do is to learn feedback.
That is the thing to do in the meantime.
Lets say it takes someone 10-12 honing sessions to get 'there'... Most probably need fewer, possibly a few need a few more.
What is the 'meantime'?
Between the 4th and 5th honing?
At that point 90% of the edge makers are well on their way to having feedback in the palm of their hands.
All honing, synths, Jnats, Arks, etc - including every so-called method, recipe, template, etc - it's all the same thing.
Set the bevel, refine the bevel, strop - shave.
Calling it cute names is fine, I guess, but making an edge only comes about one way...
Set the bevel, refine the bevel.
There is no great abyss where bad edges prevail for what seems like eternity.. There is no edge purgatory.
"in the meantime' seem like there may be a 3-4 year moratorium on competent edge making.
There isn't, it's not like that at all. With a minimum of effort it's probably just a couple of weeks. You hone, you learn, you hone more you learn more. There really isn't all that much to learn, it's not a black art and it's not rocket science.
It's literally 5-6 sessions on the stones with decent gear and good edges start to flow. If it's more than that then it's not much more usually. Anything running into the absurd is generally due to user-induced hurdles.
That is the thing to do in the meantime.
Lets say it takes someone 10-12 honing sessions to get 'there'... Most probably need fewer, possibly a few need a few more.
What is the 'meantime'?
Between the 4th and 5th honing?
At that point 90% of the edge makers are well on their way to having feedback in the palm of their hands.
All honing, synths, Jnats, Arks, etc - including every so-called method, recipe, template, etc - it's all the same thing.
Set the bevel, refine the bevel, strop - shave.
Calling it cute names is fine, I guess, but making an edge only comes about one way...
Set the bevel, refine the bevel.
There is no great abyss where bad edges prevail for what seems like eternity.. There is no edge purgatory.
"in the meantime' seem like there may be a 3-4 year moratorium on competent edge making.
There isn't, it's not like that at all. With a minimum of effort it's probably just a couple of weeks. You hone, you learn, you hone more you learn more. There really isn't all that much to learn, it's not a black art and it's not rocket science.
It's literally 5-6 sessions on the stones with decent gear and good edges start to flow. If it's more than that then it's not much more usually. Anything running into the absurd is generally due to user-induced hurdles.
- Thread starter
- #33
One thing that can drag out the learning curve is the wrong gear or gear that you don’t have a good relationship with. And if finances are limited this can really draw out the length of time it takes to understand what’s going on with the honing process and accumulate tools that you can work with.
There’s such an overwhelming amount of information out there that many newcomers and not so newcomers can quickly find themselves in an information paralysis of sorts.
Another thing that has taken me quite a while to attempt to resolve is inconsistent results and gear that you’re not getting along with potentially adds to the challenge.
There is no honing recipe that fixes junk gear. Heavily damaged razors, and useless stones will not respond to pyramid honing, recipes, methods, fairy juice, hooker snot, or donkey dust.
As I have said endlessly, I can't afford to buy cheap stuff.
A Glass Stone 1k and 4k plus a tube of crox and a cotton belt is a lot cheaper than a Bearmoo set and the 10 razors they're going to kill.
There is a vast amount of mis-information out there.
Honing remains unscathed though - set the bevel, refine the bevel.
That's it. Nothing else. It doesn't need to be reinvented.
User-induced hurdles must be overcome first.
I remember someone trying to hone on the wrong side of a Shapton Glass Stone.
Yes, it's true. That happened.
There is no template or recipe to fix that.
Again - set the bevel, refine the bevel.
Set the bevel so it can shave at least WTG.
Without that, there is no edge. No one needs a template to overcome that.
When I started out, forums were full of geezers perpetuating the myth that newbs need training wheels to hone.
It's not true, there is no mystery, no secrets. You don't need a million bucks to hone but buying junk will probably only get in the way. But still, if the gear is even somewhat capable, the edges will come. I've shaved with plenty of King 1k Brick bevels.
If people stop making mountains out of molehills, anyone struggling might get some clarity quicker and their self-induced hurdles can be pushed aside. Success will follow. Keep it simple, honing is simple. What isn't simple is the part where you have to do it.
If someone wants to try and hone burnt-temper fleabay blades on Bearmoo stones, well - that's not gonna work, regardless of the approach.
As I have said endlessly, I can't afford to buy cheap stuff.
A Glass Stone 1k and 4k plus a tube of crox and a cotton belt is a lot cheaper than a Bearmoo set and the 10 razors they're going to kill.
There is a vast amount of mis-information out there.
Honing remains unscathed though - set the bevel, refine the bevel.
That's it. Nothing else. It doesn't need to be reinvented.
User-induced hurdles must be overcome first.
I remember someone trying to hone on the wrong side of a Shapton Glass Stone.
Yes, it's true. That happened.
There is no template or recipe to fix that.
Again - set the bevel, refine the bevel.
Set the bevel so it can shave at least WTG.
Without that, there is no edge. No one needs a template to overcome that.
When I started out, forums were full of geezers perpetuating the myth that newbs need training wheels to hone.
It's not true, there is no mystery, no secrets. You don't need a million bucks to hone but buying junk will probably only get in the way. But still, if the gear is even somewhat capable, the edges will come. I've shaved with plenty of King 1k Brick bevels.
If people stop making mountains out of molehills, anyone struggling might get some clarity quicker and their self-induced hurdles can be pushed aside. Success will follow. Keep it simple, honing is simple. What isn't simple is the part where you have to do it.
If someone wants to try and hone burnt-temper fleabay blades on Bearmoo stones, well - that's not gonna work, regardless of the approach.
rbscebu
Girls call me Makaluod
When I started my honing in 2019, it was with my first real SR that came from the factory with multifaceted bevels and would cut soft butter - just. I was financially challenged so invested in a lapping film setup and followed The Method. On my second try I had a good (not great) shave-ready edge. I then included diamond pasted balsa in my progression and started to achieve great (but not exceptional) edges. Exceptional came later with technique development.
As my stable of SRs increased, I realised that setting bevels on lapping films was getting rather expensive. I then purchase two Chinese synthetic whetstones; 400/1k and 3k/8k. I had to teach myself how to get the best out of these two whetstones. Not easy as they required frequent lapping and did not have good grit uniformity. Over time, I succeeded in mastering those two whetstones. I still use them to this day for bevel setting.
Unbeknown to me, I started to develop my feel for honing with the lapping films. This knowledge increased when I went to the Chinese synthetic whetstones. Honing with lapping films gave me a good grounding in developing my whetstone honing technique.
Over three years later and well more than 100 full honing sessions, I now set bevels by feel, looks and touch. Beyond the bevel-set, it is now done just by feel and sound. When I got to this level I do not remember, perhaps somewhere about honing number 20 to 50. I'm a slow learner but I do learn.
I now use the Csyths for bevel-set and initiall refining, then move on to some of the finer lapping films to finish refining to a shave-ready edge. From the lapping films I chose my finisher, either pasted balsa or one of my naturals. What I choose depends on what I feel like and the SR I am working on.
As my stable of SRs increased, I realised that setting bevels on lapping films was getting rather expensive. I then purchase two Chinese synthetic whetstones; 400/1k and 3k/8k. I had to teach myself how to get the best out of these two whetstones. Not easy as they required frequent lapping and did not have good grit uniformity. Over time, I succeeded in mastering those two whetstones. I still use them to this day for bevel setting.
Unbeknown to me, I started to develop my feel for honing with the lapping films. This knowledge increased when I went to the Chinese synthetic whetstones. Honing with lapping films gave me a good grounding in developing my whetstone honing technique.
Over three years later and well more than 100 full honing sessions, I now set bevels by feel, looks and touch. Beyond the bevel-set, it is now done just by feel and sound. When I got to this level I do not remember, perhaps somewhere about honing number 20 to 50. I'm a slow learner but I do learn.
I now use the Csyths for bevel-set and initiall refining, then move on to some of the finer lapping films to finish refining to a shave-ready edge. From the lapping films I chose my finisher, either pasted balsa or one of my naturals. What I choose depends on what I feel like and the SR I am working on.
I’ve come to rely on the feedback I get from Sharpie markers, cherry tomatoes, magnification and hanging hair tests. Once you have a the quirks of a particular razor figured out you can do away with most of these feedback tools. On a new razor, they save me a lot of time and frustration.
I think some of the problem is that we try to manage too many variables at the same time.
A new or old blade with good geometry, can be quite straight forward to learn how to hone. If you don't have any major geometry or steel quality issues, you can focus on developing a sense of feedback, without having to manage a twisted banana shaped object.
Measuring honing pressure is also a distraction in my opinion. You are only able to measure the amount of force that goes through the spine. How much of that force you are transferring to the bevel is what is important, and how you shift that pressure along the length of the blade.
If you take one measurement with one e.g. 7/8 razor. If you use the same amount of torque and pressure on a 5/8 razor (with the same grind), the force on the bevel plane will be different.
The 7/8 razor is also more flexible, which will require a lot less force to flex the blade. The difference in flexibility can be quite significant, because the width of the blade is raised to the power of three if you calculate blade stiffness.
Keeping notes that might only be relevant for one particular razor makes things allot more complicated then it needs to be.
If you add in different grinds, steel etc. You end up in a never ending circle with inconsistent results.
Learning the feel, the feed back of a stone or stones will come much faster when a learner is using one progression of stones and finisher and not jumping around to finisher/bevel setter of the month. Master one progression off of the same stones and finisher before experimenting with another. Do this over and over until you get consistent results that you are happy with, then experiment. Also be careful of changing multiple things at once. You will have a hard time figuring out where your procedure went south if it does go south. When I started out, I wanted to try everything all at once. That right there surely lengthened my learning curve.
There is nothing to be learned, jumping around. Spend time on one set of stones and get the feel for them. By using the same stones over and over you learn to read their feedback. Learning the feel comes from lots of familiarity.
I think with the gear you have I would take the following steps.
- picking out 2-3 razors that are very similar and ready for honewear.
- using only X strokes and synthetics (I believe you have a 8/12k synthetic)
-sticking with only that until you keep getting the same results.
After that I would say what is the finish you are hunting for, or what is your end goal. I would not worry about natural mid progression until synthetic finishing then moving to a natural finisher was easy.
I could be wrong but I think you have a few coticules/jnats/arks. I would sell all the arks except for your favorite one for finishing, all the coticules, and all the jnats unless there was any of those you were in love with.
Then I would just focus on mastering synthetic to ark finish as the rest of your funds are saved for a special/high performing stone. Being a nice jnat or coticule.
- picking out 2-3 razors that are very similar and ready for honewear.
- using only X strokes and synthetics (I believe you have a 8/12k synthetic)
-sticking with only that until you keep getting the same results.
After that I would say what is the finish you are hunting for, or what is your end goal. I would not worry about natural mid progression until synthetic finishing then moving to a natural finisher was easy.
I could be wrong but I think you have a few coticules/jnats/arks. I would sell all the arks except for your favorite one for finishing, all the coticules, and all the jnats unless there was any of those you were in love with.
Then I would just focus on mastering synthetic to ark finish as the rest of your funds are saved for a special/high performing stone. Being a nice jnat or coticule.
- Thread starter
- #40
I’m still unclear as to how getting a quick read on how much down-force I’m using is tantamount to the worst kind of honing treachery……
I get that you can’t draw any concrete data from that and it doesn’t factor in torque. But pressure matters and there’s no getting around it. Everyone can agree that you need the appropriate level for the task of the moment.
One thing using a measuring device exposed is my tendency to unconsciously keep adding more and more pressure after just a few minutes. I couldn’t feel it in the moment though but having something to reference at a glance was in fact helpful but it’s not something that’s a permanent fixture at the honing bench. I figured out that after just a short time working I was leaning forward more and more without realizing it which could be a consideration at the finishing stage because pressure isn’t necessarily your friend at that point.
I get that you can’t draw any concrete data from that and it doesn’t factor in torque. But pressure matters and there’s no getting around it. Everyone can agree that you need the appropriate level for the task of the moment.
One thing using a measuring device exposed is my tendency to unconsciously keep adding more and more pressure after just a few minutes. I couldn’t feel it in the moment though but having something to reference at a glance was in fact helpful but it’s not something that’s a permanent fixture at the honing bench. I figured out that after just a short time working I was leaning forward more and more without realizing it which could be a consideration at the finishing stage because pressure isn’t necessarily your friend at that point.
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