So the question is basically pretty straightforward on the surface. What stage are most of you verifying that your bevel set striations have been thoroughly removed (in as much as possible)? There is grit overlap to some degree between stones which could potentially complicate this. I’d be glad to hear some thoughts.
When to Verify Bevel Setting Striation Removal
- Thread starter lightfoot
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rbscebu
Girls call me Makaluod
I don't go by looks when moving on from bevel set. I go by feel, that is how the blade feels while passing over the honing surface. This probably develops from experience. I may not remove all the striations from bevel set but there would be none that extend all the way to the edge.
I have just finished honing an unrestored Cadman "Bengall" for a member and given it its shave test. Passed with flying colours. He wanted an economical truly shave-ready edge. If I look closely with my naked eye under a good direct light, I can just notice some very light striations on parts of the bevel. These striations stop well short of the edge. Striations stopping before the edge is the main thing I aimed to achieve.
Looks don't shave. It's the shave test that counts, nothing more.
I have just finished honing an unrestored Cadman "Bengall" for a member and given it its shave test. Passed with flying colours. He wanted an economical truly shave-ready edge. If I look closely with my naked eye under a good direct light, I can just notice some very light striations on parts of the bevel. These striations stop well short of the edge. Striations stopping before the edge is the main thing I aimed to achieve.
Looks don't shave. It's the shave test that counts, nothing more.
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- #3
I understand that many will advocate for the idea of honing by feel exclusively but as real as this approach may be it’s still a abstract concept that not everyone will have a grasp of in the short term. I think that the possibility of making a cursory evaluation at some point (the earlier the better) is a reasonable expectation even without magnification.
That being said would some of you check at 5K or is this too early due to the issue of some grit overlap between stones?
Replying because I'm interested in the topic.
I'm a newbie honer, and I check between each stone a) so I can try and understand what is going on, and b) over time, to confirm what I am feeling on the stone.
I remain hopeful that eventually b) will result in a zen like state of just rubbing steel on rocks!
My basic view is that I am as skeptical as I can manage to be about being willing to move on to the next higher grit. I will check anything I can think of, looking for a reason not to move on. If I can't find one, then onward it is.
I started doing this because I was sick of kicking myself on the higher grits, over what I had failed to take care of, on the lower grits.
I do not hone exclusively by feel, but I do use feel a lot, to tell me that there is no point in checking yet, because I clearly have work to do on the stone. If feel tells me I am done, I treat that as "you might be done here, but of course you will check carefully before deciding that's really the case."
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- #6
Yes, it’s an “all hands on deck” situation. I agree that it’s best to engage all of your faculties at every turn.
I would check after the 5k work to see if the bevel setting striations are all gone. I'd have to go through different angles of light as the strias seem to hide along the bevel. I don't think my eyes is trained enough to tell if most of the strias are gone but I make sure to put in enough work during the 5k level (Maybe 15+ mins)
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- #8
I think that would be ideal but admittedly I’ve been fooled before only to find out later that my eyes had their limits.
So I will concede to the point that feel does have to factor in as well.
If only the Stone Wizard would let me know when I’m good-to-go
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I go to a 3K after a bevel set and use feel and watching for the water to ride up over the bevel without much effort. Then I take my mini microscope and check the initial striations are gone. Only when they are eliminated do I move on.
A whole different animal if I’m using a coticule.
A whole different animal if I’m using a coticule.
When I was using The Method, I would check my edge with each grit change and verify the precious striations were completely replaced with the new thinner striations. I would check it through the entire process until I wrapped up with a mirror finish.
I have not done that with stones, mostly going by feel, undercut, etc.
If I understand your question, your next stone after bevel set, would be where you completely remove those striations.
I have not done that with stones, mostly going by feel, undercut, etc.
If I understand your question, your next stone after bevel set, would be where you completely remove those striations.
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- #11
I think you understand my question but there’s another component to the question that I probably didn’t make clear and that’s the issue of grit overlap.
You see the issue is if you look at a 1K stone versus a 3K stone there will be some particles smaller than the stated grit on the 1K stone and similarly there will be particles larger than the stated grit on the 3K stone. So then you have the phenomenon of grit overlap. Now this creates the dilemma of what amounts to duplicate striations created by both stones. So I’ve always been cautious when trying to make evaluations with stones that are very close in grit.
There have been times that I feel like I’m not really seeing the truth of the matter until about 8000.
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Gotcha. But with those variables, wouldn’t they still be mitigated with the next jump or two? Depending on what your jump is.
If your progression is: 1k, 3k, 5k, etc. I would expect the bevel set striations to be completely removed at or before 5k.
My progression is: 1k, 5k, 8k, & 12k. So that mitigates the variable from bevel set. I think … it sounded good in my head. But I will wait to see what the better honers say. I am still finding my way.
I constantly check my work using a loupe and normally finish each grit with 25 to 50 laps using lots and lots of water with very light pressure followed by 10 to 25 laps with close to zero pressure - trying to get the blade to float.
I don't understand this, but the lighter pressure at the end the smoother the bevel reveal. Maybe it's surface tension - who knows?
If the edge displaces/undercuts the water and the water rides up on the blade, things usually end well.
I don't understand this, but the lighter pressure at the end the smoother the bevel reveal. Maybe it's surface tension - who knows?
If the edge displaces/undercuts the water and the water rides up on the blade, things usually end well.
I hone a lot by feel....backed up by a 10$ microscope. I tend to just look at how the apex is progressing. I really like my 5k apexes a lot!
I don't check undercut, maybe I should. I don't use magnification as much as I used to. I do check more often when bevel setting and during 5k usage. After that it's all cake for me.
I could never gotten to the stage I am without magnification.
I don't check undercut, maybe I should. I don't use magnification as much as I used to. I do check more often when bevel setting and during 5k usage. After that it's all cake for me.
I could never gotten to the stage I am without magnification.
In my experience with Naniwa Super Stones and Choseras I am always able to clearly differentiate the stria from the 1k compared to the 3k when checking the bevel through a loupe and I have not found Grit overlap to be much of an issue on those stones.
If you continue having problems with deeper striations on your bevels when moving up in your progression you might want to check if you are hitting the bevel correctly with your stroke and check for possible contamination of your finer stones with remaining particles from your coarser stones.
If you continue having problems with deeper striations on your bevels when moving up in your progression you might want to check if you are hitting the bevel correctly with your stroke and check for possible contamination of your finer stones with remaining particles from your coarser stones.
In principle I hone until there is no change in feel. At some point you hit a plateau.
Smaller grit jumps makes this much easier. Smaller grit jumps takes most of the guessing out of the equation.
It also helps when you use a microscope to learn what a certain feedback translates to on the edge.
When you have dialed in your process you don't need to use it that much, if any.
Some steel also release particles unpredictably. These steel particles can also show up as deeper striation, and might be mistaken for larger grit particles. I am really careful spending too much time without rinsing off any swarf.
Smaller grit jumps makes this much easier. Smaller grit jumps takes most of the guessing out of the equation.
It also helps when you use a microscope to learn what a certain feedback translates to on the edge.
When you have dialed in your process you don't need to use it that much, if any.
Some steel also release particles unpredictably. These steel particles can also show up as deeper striation, and might be mistaken for larger grit particles. I am really careful spending too much time without rinsing off any swarf.
One technique is to put a 45 degree scratch pattern into the bevel at the end of the stage. You hone with a perpendicular pattern on the next stage until all of the 45 degree scratches are gone. Without this it’s very easy to miss the deeper scratches until you are well into in your progression.
If you use fast synthetic stones like the Shapton glass series you can move up the stages very quickly once the bevel set is complete. If you don’t stretch the jumps too much you have a little leigh way at each stage and progress is faster.
If you use fast synthetic stones like the Shapton glass series you can move up the stages very quickly once the bevel set is complete. If you don’t stretch the jumps too much you have a little leigh way at each stage and progress is faster.
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- #18
I have to admit that while I’m not a big fan of synthetic slurry it can help get past deeper stria especially in the early stages which is where it really counts the most in my thinking at least. Unfortunately this can come at the expense of slightly rounding the Apex a little so there can be a trade-off…
I know that there are a good number of people that might be inclined to downplay the optical aspect of this but I would politely remind everyone that striations are a 3-dimensional phenomenon. The optics are really just a byproduct of the fact that these things exist in physical space. So in my reasoning I definitely think getting past the potentially stubborn fingerprints left by the earliest stones is a big priority for me at least.
I have tried switching between diagonal and lateral scratch patterns in the past and there is something to be said for that.
I know that there are a good number of people that might be inclined to downplay the optical aspect of this but I would politely remind everyone that striations are a 3-dimensional phenomenon. The optics are really just a byproduct of the fact that these things exist in physical space. So in my reasoning I definitely think getting past the potentially stubborn fingerprints left by the earliest stones is a big priority for me at least.
I have tried switching between diagonal and lateral scratch patterns in the past and there is something to be said for that.
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“What stage are most of you verifying that your bevel set striations have been thoroughly removed (in as much as possible)? There is grit overlap to some degree between stones which could potentially complicate this. I’d be glad to hear some thoughts.”
Look at the bevel with magnification, before you hone it. Ink the bevel and do a single lap. Did all the ink come off? The ink will tell you how the razor needs to be honed and repaired if needed.
No grit overlap. The goal is for the bevel to only have the stria of the stone in the progression you are currently on, and all the previous grit’s stria should be removed, completely.
Look at the bevel with magnification. At 1k or bevel set, the stria pattern should be uniform from the back of the bevel to the edge and from the heel corner to the tip of the toe. If you do not look at bevel set, how would you know if the bevel is FULLY set? If you move up in stone, without fully setting the bevel, you are spinning your wheels. Look straight down on the edge, if you see shiny reflections, the bevel is not set.
The next stone should remove all the deep bevel setting stria. All of it. You cannot tell that, by feel or any other test, just look at it. The deep stria is removed, or not. Each stone should remove the previous stone’s stria completely, and the edge becomes straighter with each stone in the progression. Confirm that all the stria is removed, buy looking at the bevel with magnification.
The edge does not become really straight until 8k and should have a near mirror or very even fine stria pattern bevel and chip free edge. If there are deep stria, the edge will have microchips. Say you are using a 1,3,8k progression, if you get to the 8k and see deep stria after about the first 10-20 laps, it is not the end of the world. Just drop back to the 3k and remove all the deep stria.
The goal of a progression is to remove grit overlap, hone the bevels to meeting and straighten the edge. An 8k stone should not have grit larger than 8k. Some stone will cut more aggressive or less depending on the binder and the grit used.
If you cannot tell if the previous stria is removed, get more magnification. Don’t listen to those guys that say a 10X loupe is all you need. They already know how to hone and 10x is all they need.
90% of new honer issues are, failing to fully set a bevel. Second is failing to remove all the deep bevel setting stria on the transition stone, where you transition from grinding, shaping the bevel to polishing.
As said slurry on a synthetic can speed up steel removal, once the bevel is set fully or previous stria is removed, just do a series of lap on a clean, (no slurry) freshly quick lapped stone to get the bevels meeting, 15-20 laps.
Look at the bevel with magnification, before you hone it. Ink the bevel and do a single lap. Did all the ink come off? The ink will tell you how the razor needs to be honed and repaired if needed.
No grit overlap. The goal is for the bevel to only have the stria of the stone in the progression you are currently on, and all the previous grit’s stria should be removed, completely.
Look at the bevel with magnification. At 1k or bevel set, the stria pattern should be uniform from the back of the bevel to the edge and from the heel corner to the tip of the toe. If you do not look at bevel set, how would you know if the bevel is FULLY set? If you move up in stone, without fully setting the bevel, you are spinning your wheels. Look straight down on the edge, if you see shiny reflections, the bevel is not set.
The next stone should remove all the deep bevel setting stria. All of it. You cannot tell that, by feel or any other test, just look at it. The deep stria is removed, or not. Each stone should remove the previous stone’s stria completely, and the edge becomes straighter with each stone in the progression. Confirm that all the stria is removed, buy looking at the bevel with magnification.
The edge does not become really straight until 8k and should have a near mirror or very even fine stria pattern bevel and chip free edge. If there are deep stria, the edge will have microchips. Say you are using a 1,3,8k progression, if you get to the 8k and see deep stria after about the first 10-20 laps, it is not the end of the world. Just drop back to the 3k and remove all the deep stria.
The goal of a progression is to remove grit overlap, hone the bevels to meeting and straighten the edge. An 8k stone should not have grit larger than 8k. Some stone will cut more aggressive or less depending on the binder and the grit used.
If you cannot tell if the previous stria is removed, get more magnification. Don’t listen to those guys that say a 10X loupe is all you need. They already know how to hone and 10x is all they need.
90% of new honer issues are, failing to fully set a bevel. Second is failing to remove all the deep bevel setting stria on the transition stone, where you transition from grinding, shaping the bevel to polishing.
As said slurry on a synthetic can speed up steel removal, once the bevel is set fully or previous stria is removed, just do a series of lap on a clean, (no slurry) freshly quick lapped stone to get the bevels meeting, 15-20 laps.
I've had that happen. Deeper scratches that hide in the weeds of the midrange stone and then pop up at 8k.
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