When is a chip a problem?

[Tomo]

I touched up a razor last night and when I was done I had a look at the bevel under the loupe. Everything looked good. The diamond paste had put a mirror polish on the bevel. But wait what’s that? A bit of dust in the edge?

I wiped off the dust and had another look. It was actually a tiny little chip in the edge. On closer inspection against a contrasting background I could actually make out two chips. Both very very small. About the diameter of a human hair.

This razor has a mirror polish so I didn’t want to put it on the stones and scuff the finish or condemn myself to tape from here on in. Instead I did a full diamond progression but this doesn’t have the teeth to move a chip very fast.

Apart from the micro chips the edge was sweet so I shaved with it this morning. Absolutely no issues whatsoever. No nicks, no irritation, absolutely perfect. But you can’t unsee what you have seen.

So here’s the question: If you can’t see a chip (without magnification) and you can’t feel a chip, does it exist?

I mean if you increase the magnification enough you will probably see all sorts of ‘problems’ with the edge. Then again it’s probably good practice to move down the grits every once in a while to refresh the apex and fix up all the little chips and dings that you can’t even see. For now I’m just going to pretend it was dust.

 

[C FrankC]

Great write up, and as far as the question-shave with whatever you like.
I often use a 100X microscope to observe my edges and once I see edge damage like what you describe it has to be corrected. Call me compulsive or worse but I like to hone as much as I like to shave so honing out chips is just what I would choose to do.
And yes, once I started looking @ edges under that 100X mag. level I saw a lot more.
I also learned much more about edges and how the stones affect the steel.

 

[Herrenberg]

If chips are big enough, they will catch hairs. You'll sure notice that.

Smaller chips affect comfort on the skin, but you might need a few of them to notice.

 

[Darth Scandalous]

What magnification were you using?
First chip I ever found left a light line on my strop. But that one was visible to the naked eye, lol.

 

[rbscebu]

Ignorance can be bliss. If you don't look you will never know.

The only time I worry about a chip in the edge is if I can notice it in my shave.

 

[Tomo]

What magnification were you using?
First chip I ever found left a light line on my strop. But that one was visible to the naked eye, lol.

10x Zeiss Triplicate. Even then they were touch to make out. A few laps on a 3k would clear them up pretty quickly but then there would be nothing left to talk about. Except for a scuffed up spine.

 

[ables]

I touched up a razor last night and when I was done I had a look at the bevel under the loupe. Everything looked good. The diamond paste had put a mirror polish on the bevel. But wait what’s that? A bit of dust in the edge?

I wiped off the dust and had another look. It was actually a tiny little chip in the edge. On closer inspection against a contrasting background I could actually make out two chips. Both very very small. About the diameter of a human hair.

This razor has a mirror polish so I didn’t want to put it on the stones and scuff the finish or condemn myself to tape from here on in. Instead I did a full diamond progression but this doesn’t have the teeth to move a chip very fast.

Apart from the micro chips the edge was sweet so I shaved with it this morning. Absolutely no issues whatsoever. No nicks, no irritation, absolutely perfect. But you can’t unsee what you have seen.

So here’s the question: If you can’t see a chip (without magnification) and you can’t feel a chip, does it exist?

I mean if you increase the magnification enough you will probably see all sorts of ‘problems’ with the edge. Then again it’s probably good practice to move down the grits every once in a while to refresh the apex and fix up all the little chips and dings that you can’t even see. For now I’m just going to pretend it was dust.

I used to only use a 20x loupe but when I started using my carson 60-120x hand scope I was noticing alot of what you decribe on even my favorite shaving razors. I would chase them away eventually but it took alot of work and edge inspection time.

Instead of spending lots of time squinting through the eye piece I have started doing the "Toliet paper test" to determine if chips are a problem. When drawing the razor gently over the edge of folded toliet paper, can I precieve any snags or resistance? If so they got to be fixed. This test is way quicker at finding issues than the hand scope and actual corolates very well with any visible under the scope. There still might be some super small chips that don't catch but I wager they are small enough. Ive also created a baseline in my head for how the toliet paper cuts or doesn't, similar to reading the HHT.

 

[rbscebu]

I used to only use a 20x loupe but when I started using my carson 60-120x hand scope I was noticing alot of what you decribe on even my favorite shaving razors. I would chase them away eventually but it took alot of work and edge inspection time.

Instead of spending lots of time squinting through the eye piece I have started doing the "Toliet paper test" to determine if chips are a problem. When drawing the razor gently over the edge of folded toliet paper, can I precieve any snags or resistance? If so they got to be fixed. This test is way quicker at finding issues than the hand scope and actual corolates very well with any visible under the scope. There still might be some super small chips that don't catch but I wager they are small enough. Ive also created a baseline in my head for how the toliet paper cuts or doesn't, similar to reading the HHT.

Not my cup of tea. Toilet paper fibres are as hard as wood. I wouldn't drag my edges over wood, no matter how fine the fibres are.

 

[Empire straights]

Ignorance can be bliss. If you don't look you will never know.

The only time I worry about a chip in the edge is if I can notice it in my shave.

I'm 100% with you. I'm near sighted and don't have magnification(though I've put one under a rifle scope before). I do everything by feel. I really don't have much choice but I always get a good edge or I know in 1 seconds and then go back to the stones. Usually no problems though.

 

[ables]

Not my cup of tea. Toilet paper fibres are as hard as wood. I wouldn't drag my edges over wood, no matter how fine the fibres are.

I can understand that and have read some opinions on it. This is just a test to verify no major issues like chips quickly, after doing it you can hit the finisher again if you want. Similar to jointing the edge using the corner of a stone or glass but much safer and less damaging. I have not noticed any reduction in shaving edge by doing this gently on toliet paper however. My dirty face and hairs I'd guess are more damaging.

I actually have been doing this test also between stones while progressing to make sure I'm not wasting my time, and have found similar value to using magnification but quicker. No use leaving bevel set with chips. At this level you can even snag fibers into the chips.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

If the chip is small and you can’t feel it and it does not draw blood, it’s not a big deal. But two chips, are an indicator of a problem, bad steel, too shallow of a blade angle or dirty strop.

A hair width chip, is a pretty large chip to me. A 12 or 8k is sufficient to remove a chip of that size, with a bit of slurry and re-set the edge, finishing on a clean stone with light laps, then finish on naturals. If it continues chipping, try adding a layer of electrical tape to increase the angle.

A lot will depend on your skin and what will bother you. Me, I have 30 or so razors in my bathroom, so it goes in a cup to be honed and I shave with a fresh edge. I will switch razors mid shave.

A piece of Kapton takes seconds to apply.

 

[Slash McCoy]

Exactly. Quite simply, a chip is only a problem if it is a problem. Eventually it will hone out as you refresh the edge or if you maintain with the balsa. If the razor feels rough on the face or tugs even when you know the edge is peaked and free of burrs, and there is a chip, then it is the prime suspect. Hone only as far down in grit size as you need to remove it. Often this means just hitting the finisher with medium pressure for a bit and then gradually reducing to the proverbial weight of the razor or less. When "overhoning" in this manner, be sure to finish with light pull strokes and very short x strokes, and strop diligently.

If the edge is peppered with chips, then something is wrong, possibly with your honing, possibly (but unlikely) with the razor. Keep at it. Maybe try a different honing regimen before you throw in the towel.

In your case, a single chip really isn't telling you much and if you can't feel it and it doesn't effect the shave, then it is just another random and insignificant event.

Probably the majority of chips you find in your finished edge originated in the setting of the bevel, and end up being small simply through running your progression. Your finisher COULD be, but seldom is, the originator of the chip.

 

[rbscebu]

@ables, this afternoon I used your suggested toilet paper method to check the smoothness of the edge between whetstones. It works like a charm. Thank you for the knowledge.

 

[JPO]

I touched up a razor last night and when I was done I had a look at the bevel under the loupe. Everything looked good. The diamond paste had put a mirror polish on the bevel. But wait what’s that? A bit of dust in the edge?

I wiped off the dust and had another look. It was actually a tiny little chip in the edge. On closer inspection against a contrasting background I could actually make out two chips. Both very very small. About the diameter of a human hair.

This razor has a mirror polish so I didn’t want to put it on the stones and scuff the finish or condemn myself to tape from here on in. Instead I did a full diamond progression but this doesn’t have the teeth to move a chip very fast.

Apart from the micro chips the edge was sweet so I shaved with it this morning. Absolutely no issues whatsoever. No nicks, no irritation, absolutely perfect. But you can’t unsee what you have seen.

So here’s the question: If you can’t see a chip (without magnification) and you can’t feel a chip, does it exist?

I mean if you increase the magnification enough you will probably see all sorts of ‘problems’ with the edge. Then again it’s probably good practice to move down the grits every once in a while to refresh the apex and fix up all the little chips and dings that you can’t even see. For now I’m just going to pretend it was dust.

Even if you can not feel the chips they can create weepers. A hairs width would be a problem for me to accept.
Slurry from a natural stone really helps to round off the edges of the chips. Chips can generally be a sign off something created in a previous step. Large grit jumps tend to cause this on some razors.
Strain hardened steel will also tend to get brittle. It might be an idea to drop down in grit to get to better steel.
My Hart steel razors have been really problematic for me. They can develop chips even during a shave. Smaller grit jumps have been helpful with these.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Early Heart’s were notorious for chipping. Smaller grit jumps may make a more chip free edge, but a Micro Bevel has always been the fix for hard chippy razors like Heart’s.

Another easy solution when using a small progression is to joint the edge after each stone and before your finish laps. Jointing will remove, cut off any flashing/burr and straighten the edge. Once the edge is straight you just hone up to the already straight edge.

Once the bevels are flat and meeting, they can be brought back to meeting easily in a few laps, after removing a few microns at the edge.

Stropping on linen between stones also helps, by removing flashing so you are honing on clean steel.

A Qtip is also a good non-destructive chip detector. Just fluff out the tip a bit and run the tip along the edge. The fibers will snag the tiniest chip.

 

[cotedupy]

So here’s the question: If you can’t see a chip (without magnification) and you can’t feel a chip, does it exist?

Alright George, calm down yh?

 

[2bit_collie]

I’ve seen this a fair amount with my 50X USB scope. If I just have an isolation chip that is just big enough to see, I likely won’t feel it and don’t bother to remove. If I can see it with my naked eye, or even with a 5X loupe, then I remove it.

 

[Gamma]

If I see a chip, I hone it out. I usually view with a 4x loupe, but it's a real 4x loupe. I have a cheap Amazon 30x loupe that is really more like 4x. So, when people say they have a XYZx whatever type of magnifier, I can't really make a visual comparison to what they might be seeing. A 5x objective on my microscope winds up being significantly more than 5x when viewed on screen.
Anyway, if I see a chip, I hone it out. If I don't 'feel' it now, or if I don't 'think' I feel it now, I will feel it later. Honestly though, it's not a common thing - don't remember the last time a chip just 'showed up'. I find that those surprise chips are usually indicative of poor bevel work, deep striations meeting at the apex and causing a fault. So yeah, I fix that when I see it. I wouldn't say it's wrong to not fix it, 'cause that's personal preference stuff. But for me, personally, I would not leave it alone.