What's Wrong With Excessive Spine Wear?

[rbscebu]

Many times people are warned about obtaining SRs with "excessive" spine wear. Aside from aesthetics, what is the downside of"excessive" spine wear?

Provided the blades bevel is properly set and it's included angle is within limits, I cannot see the reason for this warning.

 

[kw1861]

It's mostly aesthetic. If the bevel angle is still reasonable, and the toe isn't excessively worn, it has no impact on the shaving capabilities of the razor.

 

[Earcutter]

Usually the angle isn’t within limits if the spine is gone though. That’s the problem I figure.

 

[DrStrange]

Many times people are warned about obtaining SRs with "excessive" spine wear. Aside from aesthetics, what is the downside of"excessive" spine wear?

Provided the blades bevel is properly set and it's included angle is within limits, I cannot see the reason for this warning.

Excessive spine wear goes with excessive edge wear.
In other words, a used up blade.

 

[Christian1212]

I believe you can get heavy spine wear from someone that hones with 2 hands and puts a lot of pressure on the spine. Then I think the spine can wear faster then intended and it have an impact on the edge but I do not know for sure

 

[azwetshaver]

I try to stay away from too much wear on my razors, straights or DEs. If a DE has to much brassing, I figure there could be wear on the threads.

On straights I stay away from home wear as I am not too experienced with honing. I figure hone wear may change the geometry of the blade. Wear that I may not recognize. Slight smiles, frowns, toe wear, heel wear, heel hooks. This may be issues that may require someone with more experience to hone. The blade may need honing corrections to ensure a good edge.

 

[RayClem]

Part of the issue comes about because of the tempering process. When the blade is heated, the thin edge heats more quickly than the thick spine. Then when the blade is cooled, the edge cools more quickly making it harder than the spine. Thus, if you hone with equal pressure on the spine and edge, you will remove more metal from the spine. If you put more pressure on the spine, you remove even more metal from the spine. Thus, experienced honers try to torque the blade to put pressure on the edge without lifting the spine from the hone.

If metal is removed more quickly from the spine than from the edge, the bevel angle will get progressively more acute. Then you will need to apply multiple layers of tape to the spine while honing to achieve a suitable bevel angle.

The other issue is that spine wear is seldom uniform as middle of the spine generally wears more than the heal and toe as the mid-section is in contact with the hone longer than the two ends. To keep the wear uniform across the entire length of the blade, you have to compensate by applying pressure to the blade as you near each end of the stroke.

 

[Luecke2326]

This myth is propagated, so I can sweep in and buy all the heavily honed razors for cheap!


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[Gamma]

What is excessive spine wear? As far as I know, there are no parameters defining it objectively.

But, there are considerations to weigh in here. For example, learning to hone with a razor that has not been abused removes the burden of having to fix problems someone else created. And while it is noble to jump into the pool head first, it's also sensible to not compound issues right out of the gate.
I agree that spinewear is not 100% indicative of abuse, in fact, sp;inewear is quite normal.
But - it certainly can be the result of abuse.

So the absence of 'excessive' spine wear might indicate a blade that was well cared for.
Is that a 100% foolproof formula? No.
But I'd say the odds are in favor of lower spinewear equaling fewer honemeister-borne issues.

Me - I would not buy a 3 week old Dovo's Best with a 1/4" flat on the spine. But I do buy 200 yr old razors with tons of wear everywhere.
So, for me, it's a case by case basis and that includes when/if I am making a recommendation.

 

[Slash McCoy]

Usually spine wear is of no great consequence, and is to be expected on a razor that has seen many decades of use and honing. If the honing was done by a knowledgeable person then the wear to the spine is proportional to the wear to the edge, more or less maintaining an acceptable bevel angle.

Of course, much depends on the nature of the spine wear. In some cases a ramp develops leading to the shoulder. This makes it more likely to be honed with the heel lifting up off the hone at every stroke, sending too much pressure to the toe, causing the toe to be upswept. Or sometimes the honer lets the shoulder (or sometimes the stabilizer) ride up on the hone, and both edge and spine catch a lot of excess wear at the toe end, tapering the razor. Usually this is not worth correcting. Honing on a narrow hone eventually can cause the razor to develop a frown and this is reinforced by extra wear on the spine at and in the vicinity of the frown.

Many spine wear issues can be worked around. For instance, with a strong heel-leading angle when honing, which does not fix the issue but enables you to hone and use the razor. There is a difference between living with a defect, and correcting it. In the short term or with a very expendable razor, it may be best to just learn to live with wonky hone wear.

Very deep hone wear at the spine that is normal looking, combined with obvious heavy wear to the edge, is no big deal. The razor may have once been a 6/8 and now be a 4/8... if the bevel angle is still acceptable, who cares? It will shave if honed properly.

Many honers especially since the dawn of the internet age, hone with tape on the spine, by default, believing that it is beneficial to "save" the spine. I will let you figure out what is wrong with that. But what this means is that a razor of a certain age that shows no spine wear at all but is obviously well used, is probably a worse choice to buy than a razor with a big bevel surface at the spine.

One rule of thumb that you can follow is that a razor's total width ought to be about 4x the spine's thickness. This is kind of a ballpark thing and does not give you an accurate bevel angle, but if it is about there, it should be okay. Generally a 16deg to 17deg bevel angle is the sweet spot but many razors with bevel angles as tight as 14 degrees or as fat as 18 or even 19 degrees are in regular use by happy owners. So nothing is really chiseled in stone here. The sweet spot is ideal. Other than ideal might still be okay.

 

[decraew]

They are harder to hone because the large hone wear goes hand in hand with larger bevels which take more time to hone.

But the esthetics are the most important factor for me [emoji6]


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[SliceOfLife]

You wont find many razors with a lot of spine-wear that still have good geometry. Partly because it usually means they were chipped and "restored" with a heavy hand, and partly because most razors after a certain amount of wear no longer hone as they were intended to because the shoulder gets in the way.

I've gotten plenty of razors worn down to basically a spine and an edge (1/16-2/16") out of barbers bags. They still cut and were obviously honed by someone with experience honing... but was their geometry anywhere NEAR what it should be... not a chance.

 

[allyourbasearebelongtous]

can you put something like a tape on the spine so it doesnt get hones while honing the edge?

 

[rbscebu]

can you put something like a tape on the spine so it doesnt get hones while honing the edge?

Yes, but that means you must ALWAYS apply the SAME tape each and every time that you hone or strop. For me that is not worth the effort.

Using tape also increases the included bevel angle. Sometimes that is needed if the blade's spine is so thin than the included bevel angle is just too accute.

I would never buy a SR that is "shave ready" without hone wear.

 

[rbscebu]

Usually spine wear is of no great consequence, and is to be expected on a razor that has seen many decades of use and honing. If the honing was done by a knowledgeable person then the wear to the spine is proportional to the wear to the edge, more or less maintaining an acceptable bevel angle.
....

Thank you Slash. You and I have the same thinking on this subject.

 

[ajduplessis]

I believe you can get heavy spine wear from someone that hones with 2 hands and puts a lot of pressure on the spine. Then I think the spine can wear faster then intended and it have an impact on the edge but I do not know for sure

2 hands and pressure does not equate to excessive spine wear. Over honing and bad technique does. I hone all my razors with 2 hands on a bench and use a lot of pressure during bevel settings and I am happy with the results. I never use tape.

Excessive spine wear is due to honing over time and straight razors are designed to work this way to maintain a useable bevel angle for shaving.

Uneven spine wear is a problem because the blade geometry changes, it could also be due to uneven spines, or warped blades.

Dovo below had a uneven spine (slightly thicker) at the heel that caused a slight wobble. Thus more wear at this point after correction but tappers back to a thin spine line.

 

[Tomo]

Yes, but that means you must ALWAYS apply the SAME tape each and every time that you hone or strop. For me that is not worth the effort.


This. Otherwise you are changing the bevel.

 

[Christian1212]

2 hands and pressure does not equate to excessive spine wear. Over honing and bad technique does. I hone all my razors with 2 hands on a bench and use a lot of pressure during bevel settings and I am happy with the results. I never use tape.


Excessive spine wear is due to honing over time and straight razors are designed to work this way to maintain a useable bevel angle for shaving.

Uneven spine wear is a problem because the blade geometry changes, it could also be due to uneven spines, or warped blades.

Dovo below had a uneven spine (slightly thicker) at the heel that caused a slight wobble. Thus more wear at this point after correction but tappers back to a thin spine line.

Not saying honing with 2 hands is bad, just when excessive force on the spine is being used. When I first started I definitely used to much pressure on 1k/4k range with 2 hands and wore down a decent blade quickly. My thought was it would speed up the honing process. I now only use one hand for most or all of my honing but that is just out of preference

 

[allyourbasearebelongtous]

Yes, but that means you must ALWAYS apply the SAME tape each and every time that you hone or strop. For me that is not worth the effort.

Using tape also increases the included bevel angle. Sometimes that is needed if the blade's spine is so thin than the included bevel angle is just too accute.

I would never buy a SR that is "shave ready" without hone wear.

what if you had like a 500 or 1000 $$ razor, would that be worth the effort to tape it?

"I would never buy a SR that is "shave ready" without hone wear." < i don't quite understand can explain this like im 5 years old. thank you

 

[stone and strop]

Yes, but that means you must ALWAYS apply the SAME tape each and every time that you hone or strop.

You do NOT use tape when stropping.

I would never buy a SR that is "shave ready" without hone wear.

You should never buy a Koraat or any other custom razor then.