What's new

What to get if you're coming into straight razors and starting with the stones you have for knives (eg. up to 5k)

So I wound up chatting with @Vberch as he picked up a couple of straights from me to get started on this happy path. He had some questions and (after checking with him) I thought I'd answer here in case anyone else cares to chime in (and in case my rambling could be helpful to anyone else as this takes a while to put into words).

What do you use to sharpen and hone razors? I’ve dipped my toes into Japanese whetstone sharpening and enjoy that a lot. For Japanese knifes I go up to 5,000 grit and then strop on leather with green compound on Victorinox every day kitchen knifes (softer steel) I do 1,000 grit (400 grit diamond plate of blade needs correction) and then strop.

I have a couple of JNATs I like (and used to hone your razors) but I also have a few coticules that give a really skin-friendly edge except I can never quite get it sharp enough so I use a hard black Arkansas to bump it up that extra bit. I've also built the balsa strops from the thread I linked above but I find them too unforgiving and prefer a more relaxing shave experience. Before any of this I go through this synth progression: Shapton Glass 500 (if needed), Shapton Pro 2k, Shapton Glass 6k, Naniwa SS 10k.

I’ve been using Suehiro Cerax 1000 grit and Suehiro Rika 5000 grit. They are soaking stones. Very good quality and fun to use.

I’ve also been looking at Shapton Pro, Shapton Glass and possibly Naniwa Pro (Chosera) stones. Why do you choose to start with Shapton Glass, go to Shapton Pro, then Shapton Glass and finish on Naniwa super stone?

Do you like Naniwa SS 10k more than Shapton Glass 10k?

I actually started similar to your situation: I bought them for knives first. The choices I made were based on skimming the Internet a bit and digesting people's opinions on stones (though I went for splash and go as I wanted to be able to hone on a whim). It seemed like the Shapton Pro stones were a better deal than glass, except people didn't seem to much like the Pro 5000. So I got the 5k in glass. They loved the pro 2k though so I went for that. And I was convinced the Atoma 400 would be good to keep them flat but heard diamond plates leave deep scratches so I'd best reserve it for the blades needing heavy work. Was concerned the pro 320 would be worse for the atoma and people seemed to really like the glass 500.

So I wound up really pleased with my choices and they carried over well for straights--I make a lot of use of a triplet loupe to examine the edge as I go and I can confirm the 500 leaves a way way waaaaay cleaner bevel than the atoma and that the 2k follows it up handily. The glass 6k also worked out well, it's fast enough that it's no great hardship to remove the 2k scratches on it.

Upon getting into straights I steered clear of Shapton as I'd seen a lot of posts recommending against their stones for straight razors. Instead, people prefer Naniwa, most accessibly the 12k super stone. I got the 10k because I was concerned about the jump from 6k, because it was recommended by a reputable razor dealer, and because I saw a video where Ulrik of Koraat fame was using it and figured if it was good enough to finish those razors it's good enough for me. Didn't hurt that it was cheaper. I can shave off of it fine though it benefits from a bit of stropping on paste and is also what I often use before finishing up on a natural stone. But I had to glue to acrylic because 10mm is too thin for a stone and it warps otherwise. Also not my favourite feeling stone, not bad or anything and doesn't really affect the results, just kinda plasticy.



So for you I'd suggest looking into a nice 8k. People seem to really like the Naniwa Fuji for that (look around the various 8k threads here). There is also the Naniwa Junpaku / snow white that is widely appreciated but it can develop issues. Impression I get is that people can get a very satisfying shaving edge straight from that stone and you can always touch it up with chromium oxide paste (as you mentioned doing for your knives, it's the green stuff, though not all CrOx is fine enough for razors - some can have impurities/larger particles apparently, worth a shot though).

I'd say not to bother with a 12k+ synth yet as that 8k should suffice to start, but if you're curious about a finer synth, 1µ lapping film is just as good as any 12k and far more economical. Plus it's as flat as whatever you put it on. There's a whole thread on it: Lapping film, try it. - https://www.badgerandblade.com/forum/threads/lapping-film-try-it.283576/

Indeed, you could just use that 1µ film to touch up your razors once stropping on paste stops bringing them back and not need to buy any stones. If you wanted to start from bevel set and put an edge on something that has been sitting for decades, either of the 8k or 3µ film will be fine after your 5k.

If you just get films for now while you're getting the hang of honing that saves you money to get natural stones instead. A lot of time I'll go right to my coticules from 6k and it makes a fine pre-finisher (though it takes a bit of slurry to start) so it can take the place of that 8k. And you don't need a ginormous one, a 6" x 2" coti is probably cheaper than a nice 8k anyhow. If you like the edges I sent you, those are both JNAT.
 
Lots of good information and advice.

It depends on the new honer, is he looking to start honing on the cheap or is he willing to invest in the process.

If looking for a simple solution using what he already has, the Suehiro 1 and 5 k are just fine, he will need to lap the stones flat. He just needs a finisher.

The 12k Super Stone is almost bullet proof, there is a swarf issue, but if he is willing to lap frequently and especially at the final finish laps it will deliver smoking edges.

I once made a post on removing a chip and bevel setting a razor with just a 12k super stone, I think it was about 200 laps.

Or for literally a few bucks more without the swarf issue, a Fugi or Snow White 8k. Either will produce an edge as good as the 12k.

Strop on Chrome Oxide or .50um CBN will deliver a smoking, smooth shaving edge.

12kc.jpg


12k Super Stone edge.
 
So I wound up chatting with @Vberch as he picked up a couple of straights from me to get started on this happy path. He had some questions and (after checking with him) I thought I'd answer here in case anyone else cares to chime in (and in case my rambling could be helpful to anyone else as this takes a while to put into words).



I have a couple of JNATs I like (and used to hone your razors) but I also have a few coticules that give a really skin-friendly edge except I can never quite get it sharp enough so I use a hard black Arkansas to bump it up that extra bit. I've also built the balsa strops from the thread I linked above but I find them too unforgiving and prefer a more relaxing shave experience. Before any of this I go through this synth progression: Shapton Glass 500 (if needed), Shapton Pro 2k, Shapton Glass 6k, Naniwa SS 10k.



I actually started similar to your situation: I bought them for knives first. The choices I made were based on skimming the Internet a bit and digesting people's opinions on stones (though I went for splash and go as I wanted to be able to hone on a whim). It seemed like the Shapton Pro stones were a better deal than glass, except people didn't seem to much like the Pro 5000. So I got the 5k in glass. They loved the pro 2k though so I went for that. And I was convinced the Atoma 400 would be good to keep them flat but heard diamond plates leave deep scratches so I'd best reserve it for the blades needing heavy work. Was concerned the pro 320 would be worse for the atoma and people seemed to really like the glass 500.

So I wound up really pleased with my choices and they carried over well for straights--I make a lot of use of a triplet loupe to examine the edge as I go and I can confirm the 500 leaves a way way waaaaay cleaner bevel than the atoma and that the 2k follows it up handily. The glass 6k also worked out well, it's fast enough that it's no great hardship to remove the 2k scratches on it.

Upon getting into straights I steered clear of Shapton as I'd seen a lot of posts recommending against their stones for straight razors. Instead, people prefer Naniwa, most accessibly the 12k super stone. I got the 10k because I was concerned about the jump from 6k, because it was recommended by a reputable razor dealer, and because I saw a video where Ulrik of Koraat fame was using it and figured if it was good enough to finish those razors it's good enough for me. Didn't hurt that it was cheaper. I can shave off of it fine though it benefits from a bit of stropping on paste and is also what I often use before finishing up on a natural stone. But I had to glue to acrylic because 10mm is too thin for a stone and it warps otherwise. Also not my favourite feeling stone, not bad or anything and doesn't really affect the results, just kinda plasticy.



So for you I'd suggest looking into a nice 8k. People seem to really like the Naniwa Fuji for that (look around the various 8k threads here). There is also the Naniwa Junpaku / snow white that is widely appreciated but it can develop issues. Impression I get is that people can get a very satisfying shaving edge straight from that stone and you can always touch it up with chromium oxide paste (as you mentioned doing for your knives, it's the green stuff, though not all CrOx is fine enough for razors - some can have impurities/larger particles apparently, worth a shot though).

I'd say not to bother with a 12k+ synth yet as that 8k should suffice to start, but if you're curious about a finer synth, 1µ lapping film is just as good as any 12k and far more economical. Plus it's as flat as whatever you put it on. There's a whole thread on it: Lapping film, try it. - https://www.badgerandblade.com/forum/threads/lapping-film-try-it.283576/

Indeed, you could just use that 1µ film to touch up your razors once stropping on paste stops bringing them back and not need to buy any stones. If you wanted to start from bevel set and put an edge on something that has been sitting for decades, either of the 8k or 3µ film will be fine after your 5k.

If you just get films for now while you're getting the hang of honing that saves you money to get natural stones instead. A lot of time I'll go right to my coticules from 6k and it makes a fine pre-finisher (though it takes a bit of slurry to start) so it can take the place of that 8k. And you don't need a ginormous one, a 6" x 2" coti is probably cheaper than a nice 8k anyhow. If you like the edges I sent you, those are both JNAT.
Outstanding information! Thank you so much!
 
Lots of good information and advice.

It depends on the new honer, is he looking to start honing on the cheap or is he willing to invest in the process.

If looking for a simple solution using what he already has, the Suehiro 1 and 5 k are just fine, he will need to lap the stones flat. He just needs a finisher.

The 12k Super Stone is almost bullet proof, there is a swarf issue, but if he is willing to lap frequently and especially at the final finish laps it will deliver smoking edges.

I once made a post on removing a chip and bevel setting a razor with just a 12k super stone, I think it was about 200 laps.

Or for literally a few bucks more without the swarf issue, a Fugi or Snow White 8k. Either will produce an edge as good as the 12k.

Strop on Chrome Oxide or .50um CBN will deliver a smoking, smooth shaving edge.

View attachment 1534314

12k Super Stone edge.
Thanks a lot! I will consider getting either an 8k Naniwa Fuji or a 12k Super Stone. I looked into getting a Naniwa Snow White, but was concerned with potential cracking (it’s possible that it’s not as common as it may seem).

If I go from Suehiro Rika 5k to SS 12k, do you recommend I add another stone in between?

What about Kitayama 8k? It’s very popular for knifes. Would you go with Fuji or SS over Kitayama?
 
Thanks a lot! I will consider getting either an 8k Naniwa Fuji or a 12k Super Stone. I looked into getting a Naniwa Snow White, but was concerned with potential cracking (it’s possible that it’s not as common as it may seem).

If I go from Suehiro Rika 5k to SS 12k, do you recommend I add another stone in between?

What about Kitayama 8k? It’s very popular for knifes. Would you go with Fuji or SS over Kitayama?
The Suehiro Kouseki 10k (rated at 1 micron) is the only stone that i know of that is designed and marketed for scissors and straight razors. That does not mean other stones are not as good for straight razors. There must be a reason why this is marketed for SR and the 20k is designed for other applications. I am not saying it is better then the 20k gokomyo, but it makes you/me wonder. I can get a better shave off this stone then my 30k shapton gs. That might just be user error on my part, or because i don't need that type of sharpness to shave.

I have the 12k super stone, the 8k fuji and the 8k snow white. The Kouseki 10k can replace all of them. It is the fastest high grit finishing stone i have used, that includes the 8k shapton hr. The honing feedback is also, in my opinion best in class. It can also be used with slurry, which adds allot more range.
I don't understand why this is not getting more attention. It is expensive, but if it can replace two stones, it might be good value.

The stone is rated at 1 micron, which is closer to a 12k Naniwa. It is harder then the Naniwa, which can add a little as compared to a softer stone. I get a better shave off this stone then the 12k Naniwa.
 

Slash McCoy

I freehand dog rockets
The Naniwa 8k and 12k SuperStones will round you out nicely. Consistent and easy stones to use. Not cheap, but very good quality and worth the price. You could also go with 3µ and 1µ lapping films on a piece of 1" or thicker (I use 1-1/2" these days.) acrylic, 3" x 12" from TAP Plastics. Film is cheaper and IMHO easier to use, and no stones to lap.

You COULD jump from your 5k straight to the 12k Naniwa but I would add the 8k. I can't recommend the Kitayama because I have never used one. I can recommend all of the Naniwa Superstone line except for the 3k which I really don't care for very much. I can also recommend 3M type 261X or NanoLapTech type 26m or ThorLabs plain back lapping film. All of those things I have used with great success.
 
The right choice of finishing stone will depend on your shaving preference. More or less sharp. some will find 8K output good while others will need higher.
And inversion some don't really like too sharp edges (shavette) and prefer moderately sharp.
There is a whole range of cutting edges possible through honning, which is why there are so many different opinions on this subject.
 
Last edited:
If you finish on paste, Chrome Oxide or .50um CBN you are finishing at about 20-30k (depending on which grit chart you read). You are not shaving off the finish stone, so it does not matter, it just gets you to a clean bevel and straight edge, so you can finish on paste.

The Jump from 5K to 12 or the Snow White is an easy one. The 12 Super Stone is an easy jump with 12k or 8Ks, they are that aggressive. Google (12k Super Stone Chip Removal and Bevel Setting) to see the post I mentioned.

Of the 3, 12k SS, Fuji and Snow White I like the Snow White, if you do not soak the stone it should not crack. My Snow White crazed years ago and still produces near mirror edges, I do finish on Jnats after the Snow White.

The Kitayama is aggressive but will not finish as well as any of the 3 above and is about the same price. It is more like a Norton or Super Stone 8k. Either the Fuji or Snow White are better polishers. The 12k has the swarf issue, but if you know that going in and lap frequently you will be fine. The photo in post 2 is a 12k edge from a new honer, it was the 2nd razor he had honed, an eBay beater.
 
If you like those face friendly shaves go jnats>coticule>hard ark> 10-15 laps on the Coticule with lather (or dry but only do 10 if dry) and you'll get that crazy keenness from the hard ark but those last few laps on the Coticule will shear the teeth off of it but it'll still keep the fine bevel shape of the hard ark. This is one of my favorite shaves.
 
The right choice of finishing stone will depend on your shaving preference. More or less sharp. some will find 8K output good while others will need higher.
And inversion some don't really like too sharp edges (shavette) and prefer moderately sharp.
There is a whole range of cutting edges possible through honning, which is why there are so many different opinions on this subject.
And that's exactly what makes it fun. You could hone half your life on 200 different stones and those rock will ALWAYS have secrets to give up with patience.
 
First, learn to hone on synthetics

Learn to maintain a razor on linen and leather strops. Learning to strop properly can be more difficult than learning to hone.

Once you have mastered honing, stropping and shaving, then experiment with naturals. If you can not set a bevel and finish a razor with a small synthetic progression, doing so on naturals and getting magic edges is not likely.

Build your foundation on synthetics, shave on paste.
 
First, learn to hone on synthetics

Learn to maintain a razor on linen and leather strops. Learning to strop properly can be more difficult than learning to hone.

Once you have mastered honing, stropping and shaving, then experiment with naturals. If you can not set a bevel and finish a razor with a small synthetic progression, doing so on naturals and getting magic edges is not likely.

Build your foundation on synthetics, shave on paste.
I agree learning stropping technique is more difficult to learn than honing. Getting good leather is important too.
 
First, learn to hone on synthetics

Learn to maintain a razor on linen and leather strops. Learning to strop properly can be more difficult than learning to hone.
Definitely. 1000% this. Indeed, focus on your shaving and stropping before even thinking about putting a razor to a stone. With two razors and a pasted strop for touchups you should be good for a while.

If you finish on paste, Chrome Oxide or .50um CBN you are finishing at about 20-30k (depending on which grit chart you read). You are not shaving off the finish stone, so it does not matter, it just gets you to a clean bevel and straight edge, so you can finish on paste.
I'd say that is only eventually true eg. once you've done enough laps that all character of the previous edge disappears. And even then, it still matters because there is also the experience of using and maintaining the stone. You probably won't wear one of these out in your lifetime so it'll be with you a while. Yet it's tempting to accumulate them, that Suehiro @JPO mentioned above sounds very appealing and it's on sale at MTC...

The Jump from 5K to 12 or the Snow White is an easy one.
Most people do seem to prefer JNATs in the end so I figured something a bit faster/coarser was the way to go as pre-finisher since it'd be more useful to have around after that semi-inevitable transition and require less patience to fully eliminate the 5k scratches. Though if the 12k is that fast (even with normal pressure?) then I suppose it's somewhat moot.

Film is cheaper and IMHO easier to use, and no stones to lap.
I think (though I've never tried it) this is ultimately the most pragmatic answer for most people, especially if you don't think you're likely to want to play with dozens of razors. It's also a good way to dip your feet into superfine synths and would be a good temporary stopping point while you're deciding if you want to go down the various natural stone rabbit holes since your synth finishers will get kind of dusty if that's where you end up (you'll be touching up razors on your nats and you won't want 8k+ in your kitchen unless you're making sushi). On the other hand, stones (even synthetic ones) are just appealing objects on some level so if you don't mind tying up funds in it, you might find some satisfaction in just having all the things (though natural stones are more fun to accumulate as no two are quite identical). Plus in this case (someone well kitted out for knives) they'd already have the means to lap stones.
 
If you get a good jnat, they are/ can be quite easy to use, in my opinion.
It is one of few natural stones where you can fine tune an edge to where you like it with slurry.
My first stones was a jnat and a Naniwa 12k. I should have stopped there:)
If you get one of these options, you will be set up nicely 😉
 
Tried a bunch of high grit synths. Kept the sigma power 13k.

They all kind of ran together for sharpness and it gave me the best shave (of the synths). Also liked the feedback of it best.

But I shave off it maybe 1% of the time. Get a natural.
 
Outstanding information, guys!! I read and re-read your posts as well as read all I could find about finishing stones (high grit synths). I just placed an order for a Naniwa Fuji 8k. It was very tempting to get a Naniwa Snow White 8k, but I just didn’t want to worry about developing cracks and spider webs on it. Naniwa Fuji sounds like a great stone. I think it will serve me well until I get the bug to get into jnats 😀. I need to read and study first to understand it better.

Thank you very much, everyone! I greatly appreciate all your help!
 

Rosseforp

I think this fits, Gents
Outstanding information, guys!! I read and re-read your posts as well as read all I could find about finishing stones (high grit synths). I just placed an order for a Naniwa Fuji 8k. It was very tempting to get a Naniwa Snow White 8k, but I just didn’t want to worry about developing cracks and spider webs on it. Naniwa Fuji sounds like a great stone. I think it will serve me well until I get the bug to get into jnats 😀. I need to read and study first to understand it better.

Thank you very much, everyone! I greatly appreciate all your help!
It will be interesting to hear your feedback on the Naniwa Fuji. I just read through the post because I chose the Snow White over the Fuji about six months ago and am very happy with it. I also have the 10mm 12k naniwa Super Stone that I epoxied to a ceramic tile because of the warping, and agree with @str8six about it feeling plasticy while giving a terrific edge.
If you like those face friendly shaves go jnats>coticule>hard ark> 10-15 laps on the Coticule with lather (or dry but only do 10 if dry) and you'll get that crazy keenness from the hard ark but those last few laps on the Coticule will shear the teeth off of it but it'll still keep the fine bevel shape of the hard ark. This is one of my favorite shaves.
12k>coticule>trans ark>coticule>trans ark>strop between each stone. Will have to try lather on the coticule. Don't need a big coticule or ark to get a good edge. 6" x 2" is plenty.
Dan's says the trans and hard ark are the same basic grit level, I have both, and prefer the way the trans feels.

~doug~
 
It will be interesting to hear your feedback on the Naniwa Fuji. I just read through the post because I chose the Snow White over the Fuji about six months ago and am very happy with it. I also have the 10mm 12k naniwa Super Stone that I epoxied to a ceramic tile because of the warping, and agree with @str8six about it feeling plasticy while giving a terrific edge.

12k>coticule>trans ark>coticule>trans ark>strop between each stone. Will have to try lather on the coticule. Don't need a big coticule or ark to get a good edge. 6" x 2" is plenty.
Dan's says the trans and hard ark are the same basic grit level, I have both, and prefer the way the trans feels.

~doug~
I agree 6x2 is plenty. 4.5"x 1.5" is my favorite size for any bladed instrument I own.
 
Top Bottom