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What Is This Called? What Does It Mean?

Chan Eil Whiskers

Fumbling about.
I'm a newbie SR beginner.

My razors are these.
  1. GD 66 professionally honed by Classic Edge.
  2. GD 800 professionally honed by WSP.
  3. YZ 430+ honed by a member who gave it to me.
  4. GD 1996 purchased from Amazon "shave-ready" which I've honed.
I'm very sure I've not ruined the edge of razor #3. I could have rolled the edge of razors #1 and #2. Razor #4 was honed by me, and I don't believe I did any kind of great job of it.

I shaved with razor #1 and razor #2 before I could have rolled the edge.

So, what I'm noticing is this. Sometimes the razors (all of them) seem to glide along and at least cut some of the whiskers. No problem. Beard reduction is happening.

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However, sometimes the razors (all of them) just sit there and don't seem to want to cut anything. In other words, I put the razor to my skin and give it a bit of nudge in the right direction just as I did a few strokes back and it acts like I'm trying to use it to push over a tree. It doesn't want to do anything. It feels like it's up against something.

Don't worry. I'm backing off when the razor doesn't want to move. Backing off and trying something else.

Sometimes this happens more with my very toughest and most wiry titanium whiskers. Upper lip, chin, lower lip. I think mostly that's when it happens. I've never experienced this with a safety razor no matter how dull the blade might be.

This is not a complaint but just a statement of my status: I'm not getting very good shaves at all compared to what I can easily get with probably any safety razor. No surprise as I've done only about eight SR shaves. People say it takes a hundred.

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What is it called when the razor doesn't want to go like this? What does it mean?

I assume it's either a razor which isn't very sharp at all or my bad technique, but I am guessing about these. Perhaps its a sign of one or the other or something else. Any pointers?

I have in transit a vintage but NOS razor which is said to be sharp. From JR on eBay.

Thanks for any information or pointers.

Happy shaves to everyone,

Jim
 
Sounds like an angle/ momentum problem. I experienced it at first. If it comes and goes, it’s probably not the edge.

I get my face very wet and slippery and hold the blade relatively flat to my face. I start the stroke on a clean shaved or whiskers free area and glide into the brush. Don’t push or apply pressure, just drag it through.

You might be stroking too slowly for fear of a nick?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

steveclarkus

Goose Poop Connoisseur
My money is on your razors not being sharp enough. JR puts a 12k edge on his razors which should shave even a wiry beard. If it doesn't, user error must be the problem.
 
Rule of three:

1) slickness of lather
Straights don't have the coating a DE blade has. You will need more water in your lather. You will probably have to soften the hairs more. Cutting isn't just about sharpness it's also about slickness.
2) readiness of razor
When you think about whether a razor is ready to shave is tempting to think about honing. STROPPING is more important. I straight shaved for 30+ years before learning to hone. You need to ensure your stropping routine is effective - whether it's pasted balsa, paddle strop, pasted leather, hanging canvas / leather routine.
3) angle and appropriateness of stroke. Try to suspend the old WTY/XTG/ATG and think more about the best way to pass the b Razor over the contours of your face. You may surprise yourself - a well judged stroke can be as effective as 2 from a safety razor.
Remember the importance of skin stretching.
 
When you are newer, the answer can be "all of the above". When you get your latest razor in the mail, I would shave with it before ever stropping it (in case that is the problem).

Shave your cheeks first. If that goes well and you have trouble with the chin area, it's technique. Right now I'm guessing it's both technique and lack of sharpness.

When you are newer, you can start out with a sharp blade (if you are lucky) and find ways to dull it very quickly.
 

Chan Eil Whiskers

Fumbling about.
Everybody who has replied has offered really good advice. Thanks, gentlemen. I'm going to reply to these suggestions in a little bit of detail.

Still, what's it called? Maybe there's no name?

When you are newer, the answer can be "all of the above". When you get your latest razor in the mail, I would shave with it before ever stropping it (in case that is the problem).

I have with the others and I will. I think stropping was a problem but probably is not now. Of course, how can I be sure (and you've answered that).

All of the above is very likely right and also rather scary!

Shave your cheeks first. If that goes well and you have trouble with the chin area, it's technique. Right now I'm guessing it's both technique and lack of sharpness.

Another all of above scary statement. Likely right, too.

When you are newer, you can start out with a sharp blade (if you are lucky) and find ways to dull it very quickly.

Sarcasm font: Well, that's just great!

I'm pretty sure I'm not now dulling it on the strop or in the drying process or anything like that. Of course, I may be dulling the razor on my face with bad technique. I may be doing something - an unknown unknown - else wrong.

Rule of three:

1) slickness of lather
Straights don't have the coating a DE blade has. You will need more water in your lather. You will probably have to soften the hairs more. Cutting isn't just about sharpness it's also about slickness.

Fortunately I'm already a guy who likes and practices extreme hydration, but I'll make it more extreme.

2) readiness of razor
When you think about whether a razor is ready to shave is tempting to think about honing. STROPPING is more important. I straight shaved for 30+ years before learning to hone. You need to ensure your stropping routine is effective - whether it's pasted balsa, paddle strop, pasted leather, hanging canvas / leather routine.

I doubt you're saying that stropping fixes a razor which isn't sharp.

I know stropping is very, very important. I'm really attending to getting as good at stropping as quickly as possible. I will continue to attend to stropping.

What did you do for decades, send your razors out for honing?

3) angle and appropriateness of stroke. Try to suspend the old WTY/XTG/ATG and think more about the best way to pass the b Razor over the contours of your face. You may surprise yourself - a well judged stroke can be as effective as 2 from a safety razor.

It's already occurred to me that what you're saying here has to be right. There's no way around it. The safety razor WTG/XTG/ATG stuff doesn't work if you can't make the razor go in those directions. Actually, the W/X/A stuff doesn't work very well for me with the safety razors either except in a vague way.

Really good that you said this because I needed to hear it, and not just from my own thoughts! I don't know enough to think about this very well or trust my musings.

With a safety razor: I have almost no trouble at all getting BBS on my cheeks. My neck is just impossible, but I can get DFS or marginal BBS with enough passes. My lower lip requires buffing it a million strokes to be even occasionally close to BBS. Etc. In other words, I attack from all angles to the degree possible with safety razors.

Probably will attack from every possible angle to the degree possible with the SR. It would be nice if that means fewer passes.

Sounds like an angle/ momentum problem. I experienced it at first. If it comes and goes, it’s probably not the edge.

It mostly comes in certain tough areas where I know the whiskers are wiry, etc. I think you're right about momentum; I'd not considered that at all. Of course it's important! Vital really.

I get my face very wet and slippery and hold the blade relatively flat to my face. I start the stroke on a clean shaved or whiskers free area and glide into the brush. Don’t push or apply pressure, just drag it through.

Great advice particularly about where to start as I attack a difficult area. Again, momentum!

You might be stroking too slowly for fear of a nick?

I might be going to slowly for that very reason. I'm quite tentative in some areas. I had bad times with a SR in college and have scars to prove it.

Remember the importance of skin stretching.

When I watch SR shave videos some people stretch a lot and some very little or none other than a few face contortions.

I've not been a skin stretcher except for face contortions. Definitely I am working to get into it and get stretching down.

Question: What is it about SR shaving that seems to make skin stretching more important than it is in safety razor shaving?

Very helpful responses, gentlemen. Much appreciated.

Happy shaves to you all,

Jim
 
By the way, I started out just as you are doing (a lot of us did) and that is by learning to do it all at once (honing, shaving). New shavers tend to dull their edges more rapidly than someone with more experience just by the way you (may) be using the edge to scrape at the chin. I know I did.

Honing isn't hard though so you just have to keep at it until you get one blade really sharp. Once you do that, you tend to be able to do it again and again. The key is to stay with setting the bevel before moving on. It also doesn't take all that long to set the bevel so if it is taking forever, that's probably a technique thing as well.

I don't leave the 1k until the entire blade is sharp enough to easily go through leg hair like a knife though butter. After that it's just putting finer and finer scratches on your edge to replace coarser scratches. The final test is just to shave. If it shaves well, you're done. If it doesn't I generally would go all the way back to 1k.
 
A safety razor’s bar presses the skin and “stretches”/flattens it ahead of the blade.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Just going to toss this out there. Seeing as your razors are GD’s and a ZY, the spines are typically thicker than most other razors. This said you may require a steeper angle IOT achieve the correct angle to cut efficiently.

Two things that were mentioned that I feel I must reiterate, be sure to stretch the skin and ensure you lather is wet, almost runny.

All of that aside how were the razors honed and who honed them? Just because a razor was honed to 12k and said to be shave ready does not mean a thing. Not to offend anyone, but retailers and ebayers are in the business for profit, not ensuring that your getting the best edge possible. You can easily shave off of a well honed 8k edge.
 
Everybody who has replied has offered really good advice. Thanks, gentlemen. I'm going to reply to these suggestions in a little bit of detail.

Still, what's it called? Maybe there's no name?



I have with the others and I will. I think stropping was a problem but probably is not now. Of course, how can I be sure (and you've answered that).

All of the above is very likely right and also rather scary!



Another all of above scary statement. Likely right, too.



Sarcasm font: Well, that's just great!

I'm pretty sure I'm not now dulling it on the strop or in the drying process or anything like that. Of course, I may be dulling the razor on my face with bad technique. I may be doing something - an unknown unknown - else wrong.



Fortunately I'm already a guy who likes and practices extreme hydration, but I'll make it more extreme.



I doubt you're saying that stropping fixes a razor which isn't sharp.

I know stropping is very, very important. I'm really attending to getting as good at stropping as quickly as possible. I will continue to attend to stropping.

What did you do for decades, send your razors out for honing?



It's already occurred to me that what you're saying here has to be right. There's no way around it. The safety razor WTG/XTG/ATG stuff doesn't work if you can't make the razor go in those directions. Actually, the W/X/A stuff doesn't work very well for me with the safety razors either except in a vague way.

Really good that you said this because I needed to hear it, and not just from my own thoughts! I don't know enough to think about this very well or trust my musings.

With a safety razor: I have almost no trouble at all getting BBS on my cheeks. My neck is just impossible, but I can get DFS or marginal BBS with enough passes. My lower lip requires buffing it a million strokes to be even occasionally close to BBS. Etc. In other words, I attack from all angles to the degree possible with safety razors.

Probably will attack from every possible angle to the degree possible with the SR. It would be nice if that means fewer passes.



It mostly comes in certain tough areas where I know the whiskers are wiry, etc. I think you're right about momentum; I'd not considered that at all. Of course it's important! Vital really.



Great advice particularly about where to start as I attack a difficult area. Again, momentum!



I might be going to slowly for that very reason. I'm quite tentative in some areas. I had bad times with a SR in college and have scars to prove it.



When I watch SR shave videos some people stretch a lot and some very little or none other than a few face contortions.

I've not been a skin stretcher except for face contortions. Definitely I am working to get into it and get stretching down.

Question: What is it about SR shaving that seems to make skin stretching more important than it is in safety razor shaving?

Very helpful responses, gentlemen. Much appreciated.

Happy shaves to you all,

Jim
A family member would maintain my razors. Sadly no longer with us. But mostly I kept them going with jewellers' pastes on paddle strops.

There are a number of videos that I can't believe when I watch them. The way the guys shave doesn't work for me - but hey - that really proves everyone's mileage is different. Even more so than with safety shaving the variables are such that you will probably find a different personal way to all of us - the only truism is to stick with it because with practice it will work itself out.

I am willing to bet that in six months to a year from now, I will read a post of yours and I will learn something I never knew about straight shaving. In the last couple of years, since discovering the forums, I have learnt more than in the all the years I was shaving with straights and safety razors before that.

Everyone has a different face, everyone has a slightly different approach, and every day you get to find something new on the forums and every day you get to experiment when you shave.
 
I've experienced the same thing, Jim. I don't have any answers, but just experiences. The Fremont, Ohio made Demascara I picked up for $10, that looked cheap, that I honed myself, that is full hollow, is consistently my most effective and sharp SR. I strop 25 on the linen and 50 on the horse hide Illinois Strop before I shave. I've done the 50 diamond balsa on this razor one time.

I've noticed that the one thing that will stop a SR is dry lather. I've also noticed that when I switch hands and have lather residue on the side now against my face, it is a good thing. I noticed the Italian Barber video showed the barber doing the same thing.

I've also started doing three passes with the grain, one against on the neck, and across the grain on the chin and jaw line. In my mind, if I am doing 3 passes, I don't have to sweat the first two. Just doing three kind of insures that whatever I missed will be taken care of later.
 
+1 on the lather not being slick enough. When I fist started, I used my trusted soaps. I was taking too long during passes and my soap would dry out. I didn't notice this at first and the blade would do the same thing (not move). I would relather and the problem was gone. I then switched to creams and they seem to dry out less quickly. Since my speed has increased, I can use soaps or creams. Hydration being the key for slickness.
 
Fortunately I'm already a guy who likes and practices extreme hydration, but I'll make it more extreme.
OK, I'm going to be the heretic here. I think a hot prep hurts your shave. One of the tried and true techniques of wet shaving seems to have been completely lost. Here's a quote from the classic 1905 book Shaving Made Easy
A wrong idea prevails regarding the use of the soap. The popular impression is that the soap is used for the purpose of softening the beard, in which condition it is supposed to be most easily cut. This is a mistake. The soap is used, not to soften the beard, but to produce exactly the opposite effect—namely, to make the hair stiff and brittle, so that they will present a firm and resisting surface to the razor. A hair, as is well known, is a tube composed of a hard fibrous substance, growing from a bulb or root, which secretes an oily matter. This oil works its way up through the hair, and by permeating all parts, renders the hair soft and pliable. Now in this natural oily condition, it is very difficult to cut the hair with a razor, and it becomes even more difficult if the beard be made still softer by the application of hot water. Many do this, and it is no wonder they find shaving difficult. When this is done, the hairs become soft and limp, and the razor will either slip over them entirely, or else cut partly into them, bend them back and slice them lengthwise, all the while pulling and straining them at the roots, and making the process of shaving most painful. Now soap has the opposite effect. It contains either alkali, potash or soda, which when applied to the beard in the form of lather, unites with the oil of the hair, neutralizing it and removing it, and renders the hairs hard stiff and brittle—in which condition they may be easily and readily cut.
This is how my dad was taught to shave by my grandfather (probably around 1940), and the way he taught me to shave in the early 1970s.

Zero prep has worked for me for 45+ years. Try it for a week or two straight and see how it works for you.


Also, my advice, whether for straight or safety razor shaving, is stop taking short gingerly tentative strokes. That means you're nervous and scared, and in my experience, makes it more likely to get cut or irritation. I only take long "full surface" strokes - no stopping. Go big or go home ;-)

Lastly, I think you're over-analysing everything. Just shave . . . like your grandparents did. Every single one of your issues will sort itself out as you gain more experience and find what works best for YOU.
 
There are short confident strokes and short tentative strokes. The ones I see professionals performing reminds me of a waltz's 3/4 time aka 1-2-3 1-2-3.
 
Hi Jim. I am sorry you're still experiencing problems.

The term I used for the very same behavior you are describing is the feeling of the razor "Catching" on whiskers. It would just stop and not seem to want to move.

I've recently had a breakthrough in my technique, and the problem of the razor "catching" has all but disappeared - that breakthrough came all at once, and in the middle of a shave. I am not trying to "show off" or anything, but instead to tell you two important pieces of information:

1: this problem is heavily related to technique

2: this problem does get better / go away with experience and practice.

I know how frustrating those first dozen or two shaves are - very much so, and especially for a stubborn and slow learner like me. I am more than willing to cut up my face forcing a smooth shave when my technique doesn't do it comfortably. Not smart, I know, but it's how I learn.

I don't know how to describe what changed in my technique, it's somewhere in the confluence of angle / pressure and approach vector. I just "feel" it, and know the right feel vs how it was before.

That ZY razor was shaving well when you got it. Yes, the spine is thicker than it aught to be for the blade width, so the edge is a little more obtuse than it ideally should be, but it's got the same edge treatment as the two razors I sent off to @steveclarkus for review, and he's ok'd both of those, so I can't see why it shouldn't be in order. Good gentle stropping on leather between shaves should keep it that way.
 
OK, I'm going to be the heretic here. I think a hot prep hurts your shave. One of the tried and true techniques of wet shaving seems to have been completely lost. Here's a quote from the classic 1905 book Shaving Made Easy
This is how my dad was taught to shave by my grandfather (probably around 1940), and the way he taught me to shave in the early 1970s.

Zero prep has worked for me for 45+ years. Try it for a week or two straight and see how it works for you.


Also, my advice, whether for straight or safety razor shaving, is stop taking short gingerly tentative strokes. That means you're nervous and scared, and in my experience, makes it more likely to get cut or irritation. I only take long "full surface" strokes - no stopping. Go big or go home ;-)

Lastly, I think you're over-analysing everything. Just shave . . . like your grandparents did. Every single one of your issues will sort itself out as you gain more experience and find what works best for YOU.


Barbers have been taught to use a hot prep since the first official Barbers manual was produced in 1931.
The "shaving made easy" was not written by Barbers nor is it for the Barber profession.
Anyone can write a book - doesn't mean its good information.
Good prep is imperative to a good shave, this is well known.
 
Barbers have been taught to use a hot prep since the first official Barbers manual was produced in 1931.
The "shaving made easy" was not written by Barbers nor is it for the Barber profession.
Anyone can write a book - doesn't mean its good information.
Good prep is imperative to a good shave, this is well known.
Good prep is imperative to a good shave, this is popular opinion.

There - fixed that for ya.

The no prep, cold water splash alternative is quite viable, and has been touted as a superior method by luminaries such as Ben Franklin and Nicola Tesla. While neither were barbers both are known for superior intellect and thoughtfulness, both lived before cartridge razors and canned goo, and both were well shaved gentlemen.

Hot water prep may work well for you. Glad you have a good pre shave that helps. No animus intended, but to categorically dismiss a potentially useful tool as inferior because it isn’t what barbers do seems premature. It may not work -for you- but it does work -for some-. I know because I am one of the some.
 

Chan Eil Whiskers

Fumbling about.
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Loads and loads of helpful information keeps popping up for which I am very grateful.


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Today I honed my GD 1996 again and again shaved with it. I believe it was a shave were some progress occurred. The shave showed me again why they say it takes a hundred shaves to learn the SR.

Happy shaves to everyone,

Jim
 

Chan Eil Whiskers

Fumbling about.
Good prep is imperative to a good shave, this is popular opinion.

There - fixed that for ya.

The no prep, cold water splash alternative is quite viable, and has been touted as a superior method by luminaries such as Ben Franklin and Nicola Tesla. While neither were barbers both are known for superior intellect and thoughtfulness, both lived before cartridge razors and canned goo, and both were well shaved gentlemen.

Hot water prep may work well for you. Glad you have a good pre shave that helps. No animus intended, but to categorically dismiss a potentially useful tool as inferior because it isn’t what barbers do seems premature. It may not work -for you- but it does work -for some-. I know because I am one of the some.

I'm a cold water guy.

I take sometimes a hot shower before shaving (usually I do) washing my face in the shower. After getting out I rinse my face with cold water. I use only cold water from there.

That's just me. It seems to work better for me. I don't know about anybody else.

Happy shaves,

Jim
 

Chan Eil Whiskers

Fumbling about.
Hi Jim. I am sorry you're still experiencing problems.

The term I used for the very same behavior you are describing is the feeling of the razor "Catching" on whiskers. It would just stop and not seem to want to move.

Catching. That sounds right to me. I'll adopt it. Thanks.

Thanks for the well wishes and the encouragement of your example.

Also, for the cool YZ razor.

I wish you could describe what changed, but there are many things not lending themselves to description.

Happy shaves,

Jim
 
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