What Is Happening In The Middle East

[NMMB]

I salute you, Jeff, and pray that your friends and family back in Israel are safe.

I don't have a side in this and I won't take a side in this since it doesn't involve me... but when you extend a prayer of safety for those in Israel perhaps you should also extend that prayer of safety to those in Lebanon, etc. Also, be certain to extend your prayers to cover the Canadian and American (and other) people who are visiting family members in Lebanon; these people are in serious danger and can do nothing to return to their home countries (USA, Canada, etc) because the civilian international airport has been distroyed.

 

[crackstar]

Thank you very, very much, gentlemen.

Jeff

 

[ouch]

I certainly agree that Israel's response has been far superior to that which almost every other nation on the planet would have unleashed if they had lived through the same. Having said that, proportionality relative to other nations does not make their response proportionally justifiable to this specific offense. I hope the distinction I am making is understood, so I'll give a parallel example: Someone is singing off key. Compared to every other singer in the world, they might be far closer to being on key than the rest, but the fact remains that they're still off key. Israel's military responses have been remarkably muted and are commendable compared to the vast majority of the world's other nations, however I still think their response is "off key" so to speak, even if off by less than most others.

I don't quite get your point. What would you consider an appropriate response to having missiles and mortars hurled at you? Perhaps they should have sent Hezbollah a dozen roses.

 

[Joedy]

Israel did not ask, nor does she want anyone's permission or opinion of her actions.

Nothing more really needs to be said.

-joedy

 

[slcsteve]

Israel did not ask, nor does she want anyone's permission or opinion of her actions.

Nothing more really needs to be said.

-joedy

The same thing could be said of the US - assuming that you believe that to be true.

 

[EL Alamein]

What is going on in the Middle East is good old fashioned hatred. The Israelis have been hated by the people of their region since the moment the world created the State of Israel by treaty.

When we make treaties we take a step towards peace. When we threaten war to enforce those treaties we ensure that all parties continue to move in the direction of peace. It is a part of the human condition that we must operate in this manner.

Israel has every right to defend herself and to strike at those who threaten her and bomb her people. I believe the objective of those who hate Israel is nothing less than the extermination of the Jews. I have come to believe that these haters do not want peace, they do not want land they merely want death for their hated target. In my eyes, and I think in the eyes of most decent people, this is unacceptable and Israel has had great patience up to this point. It is unfortunate but unless those who hate have a change of heart they will not be made to love Israelis in our lifetime so it may be best to give them a reason not to bother Israel. And so I think the Israelis should hit them with everything they’ve got until they are finally and truly ready for peace.

Any by the way, when did proportionate violence ever win a war? Such talk is merely drivel from those who haven’t the will nor the desire to stand up for what is right.

Chris

 

[ouch]

What is going on in the Middle East is good old fashioned hatred. The Israelis have been hated by the people of their region since the moment the world created the State of Israel by treaty.

Chris

Chris,

I agree with everything you said except for the above point. You're off by about 5,000 years.

 

[EL Alamein]

Chris,

I agree with everything you said except for the above point. You're off by about 5,000 years.

I stand corrected. You are completely right it has been going on since the Exodus. I was merely pointing out recent history.

Chris

 

[Xert]

I don't quite get your point. What would you consider an appropriate response to having missiles and mortars hurled at you? Perhaps they should have sent Hezbollah a dozen roses.

As I understand it, this specific attack was prompted by the capture of several members of their military. Invading a nation as a response and losing even more men is hardly proportional, especially considering the further repercussions that could occur in the region.

Any by the way, when did proportionate violence ever win a war? Such talk is merely drivel from those who haven’t the will nor the desire to stand up for what is right.

Proportionate actions have never won a war. If all you want to do is win, then what I'm saying is complete nonsense, because you win wars by beating the enemy. 'Beating' - the word itself is violent, because violence is what wins wars. I don't want to win a war, I want to prevent future violence - which is something proportionate actions are very good at doing.

 

[ouch]

As I understand it, this specific attack was prompted by the capture of several members of their military. Invading a nation as a response and losing even more men is hardly proportional, especially considering the further repercussions that could occur in the region.


Proportionate actions have never won a war. If all you want to do is win, then what I'm saying is complete nonsense, because you win wars by beating the enemy. 'Beating' - the word itself is violent, because violence is what wins wars. I don't want to win a war, I want to prevent future violence - which is something proportionate actions are very good at doing.

Stephan-

I agree with you in that I don't want to win a war, but sometimes the war comes to you. Once you're in it, you'd better damn well be in it to win.

I disagree about proportionate actions- they just serve to perpetuate the cycle of violence. *** for tat can continue forever. Sadly, disputes of this nature are never settled without knock down, drag out battles. War should be brutal and horrific, so that we never develop a taste for it.

 

[Xert]

I think our positions are really rather close, especially since I used to agree with you entirely. Indeed, that is almost exactly what I would say, to a word.

My problem now is twofold. First, war should not have to be terrible in order to inspire abhorance. The simple fact of organizing to do others harm (in any fashion) should be so disgusting that it is done only upon the most caution, forethought, and full consideration of both all possible alternatives and all possible outcomes. Certainly this is not often the case, and Israel has come far closer to such an ideal than many other nations.

But let me clarify my position. I absolutely am not talking about "*** for tat" conflicts, and I absolutely agree they solve nothing, only perpetuating the problem indefinitely. The truly 'proportionate' response would take into account more than just the present offence and respond in light of what is likely to occur as a result of their retaliatory measures.

 

[MJB]

How often art imitates life.

I remember an old Star Trek episode in which two planets fought a war via computer simulation. Fake missiles would fly, and deaths wold be registered. The people marked as dead would have to report to disintegrators to be sacrificed/executed. The inhabitants of the planets at war were proud of their ability to continue the combat without the pestilence that is associated with the real thing.

The battles went on for centuries without hint of negotiation. Until...the Enterprise was labelled as a casualty and all her crew was to be disintegrated. Oh course, James Tiberius Kirk would have none of this so he and Mr. Spock destroyed the computer that regulated the war on the planet that they were visiting.

The planet's leadership ws horrified, this would cause real war with bombs and everything. But Kirk comes out with a novel idea...make peace...it all worked out and within an hour the whole situation seemed like it would resove itself.

Unfortunately, I don't think that either side views the other side in the mideast conflict as human. Those who wage the battle seem blind to the pestilence; no side is innocent. Also they are so used to making war that it seems all they are capable of doing. There is so much fault to be distibuted that no single side is right and none wrong any longer. There are so many whose entire being is based in war and conflict that peace will only render than into useless appendages that peace is something that never could be allowed. The fundamental beliefs are so diametric opposed that negotiations cannot occur--we believe we have the right to be here versus we believe that you don't is a real non-starter.

The honest hopes for peace would only be for the peace to be imposed and that itself would be a VERY BLOODY and VERY LONG process. We could let the two sides just have at it but unfortunately, those who pay the biggest price are going to be people just like you and I and our wives and children. Example, its going to be 105 (heat index) here is St. Louis today, could you imagine how testy I would become if someone forced me into a poorly ventilated shelter and the water and electricity were turned off by airstrikes. That's gotta be what it is like in Southern Lebanon and Northern Israel now--babies are crying, tempers are flaring, and nothing to do all day but be bored, sweat, and hope that you don't die but perhaps wishing in part that you did to escape this ceaseless suffering.

As for the peaceful people (whether in uniform or not) on both sides, I will pray for you. For those who seek out war I hope that you see through things more clearly and join those who seek peace--if not, kill each other off quickly, and leave the peaceful people alone.

Thank you for allowing me to ramble.

MJB

 

[ouch]

Whenever I get all worked up over this rampant insanity (which seems to happening a lot), I have to crank up the audio system and listen to Roger Water's Amused to Death. What a comprehensive, prophetic work. Calms me right down. It may also be the best audiophile recording I've ever heard. Some of the ultra low frequency passages are downright frightening.

Just love those laser guided bombs,
They're really great for righting wrongs.

 

[Justso]

I think Scotto said it best. The issue at hand here is the fact that Israel has shown the restraint that no other nation I know of would have over the years. I surely know the United States would not. If Mexico decided to start launching mortar & rocket attacks on the border States, the US Military would end that in short order. If it happened again, the US would make sure it NEVER happened again. Israel has displayed the patience of Job with regards to this situation, and frankly, in my estimation, it's time to end it. Don't think for one second Iran isn't behind this with regards to supplying Hezbollah with funding and weapons. The rockets already found that were fired into Israel were Iranian rockets.

The actions we are seeing now and the actions that will unfold over the next several months might turn out to be the socio-political enema that this region has needed for decades. And once again, the impotence, obsolesence and irrelevance of the pathetic United Nations is on display for the world to see. I still think that everytime I see the UN general assembly gathered, it's like the bar scene straight out of Star Wars.

Stay tuned to this situation folks. It's going to get mighty interesting.

 

[NMMB]

I mentioned before the Canadian and American (and other) people who are stuck in the middle of the conflict in the Middle East... well, this gives some idea as to the numbers (at least the Canadian numbers).

 

[jmhUT]

The Israel/Palestine problem is ancient and tribal and very likely cannot be solved. It is one of religion, politics, economics and history. Plus, it is very hot and there is no water. As is the case with any sustained conflict neither side's hands are clean. The Lebanon/Hezbollah situation is just one in a long, heartbreaking series.

That being said, these recent developments are stressing to me. It is never a good sign when nations face off with large contries standing behind them but not beside them....yet. This is where my worry comes from and this is the argument for the virtue of a the "proportional response".

Whether or not an action is viewed as proportionate or non-proportianate is as subjective as which almond cream is the best. The reasonable man test is a good guideline but not very effective when one of the guys pointing a gun is unreasonable. Or, one party is motivated by a very real need (oil, China) that outweighs playing nice with others. Ultimately the question boils down to "If I avenge this death will my enemy kill more of mine as a response?" "If so, do I then kill more of his in response?" In my opinion the virtue of the proportionate response has little to do with morality and much to do with living in the real world, where little is fair or justified or reasonable.

My purpose in posting is not to assign blame to either side. I think there is plenty enough to go around. Rather, my fear is that if Iran wants to attack Israel it will. Would the U.S. then engage on Israel's behalf? Probably. If so, would China side with Iran? Probably. And then what?

While I consider the above argument to be pretty logical it has one fatal flaw. People are not always logical. I cannot say I would exercise any logic whatsoever if I was an active participant in this conflict rather than an objective observer. It is easy for us to opine from a safe distance.
Cheers,
Jeff

 

[crackstar]

Truthfully, I cry from my heart for the innocent Lebanese civilians who are being either injured or killed in these attacks, myself, as an ex-Israeli soldier, I have feelings as well. The Palestinians would do very well to keep children and civilians out of their military camps, and Hamas and Hezbollah would do very well to stop their attacks so this way, Israel would have no reason to retaliate. I also wanted to state that the main problem stems from a lot earlier than the creation of the state of Israel. It stems from the 2nd World War.

Jeff

 

[Xert]

Excellent thoughts gentlemen.

Jeff (crackstar), I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on the origins of the modern conflict during WWII.

And Jeff (JmhAZ), thank you for expressing so much better what I meant by 'proportionate' responses: a realist and not moral proportionality.

 

[ouch]

I'm glad to see that this thread has not deteriorated into the vitriolic nonsense that has afflicted other similar threads. Good work by all.


Now if we could only get all of the parties involved to sit down and have a good shave.........

 

[crackstar]

Stephen, the Holocaust was the main root of the problem, although the Balfour Declaration also had a lot to do with the creation of Israel.

Jeff