were is the justice?

[fine wine]

I'm still on jury duty this week, I will try to get the case number for everyone to look it up for themselfs. That was not a cheapshot at MA. I lived there for a year and a half before I left that state never to return.I wanted to purchse a shotgun to do a little hunting with a friend. The permits I had to purchase was rediculous! the difference between MA. and KY.is miles apart. And taking a lawyer to task in MA. is probably next to impossible.The law makers who are mostly lawyers have seen to that. Enough said about that.

There are no bail bondsmen in KY. The state got rid of that in the early 70's.

Now to post my opinon on the self defence statement I made about reloading and shooting him again. This man was fighting for his life! This did not happen in slow motion. It was not like the defendant had time to sudy the event that was happening to him! This all took place in a matter of seconds!!! His car door was opened and a illegal gun was stuck in his face! The ONLY law that applayed was the law of the jungle! Surely anyone with half a brain could understand that. This poor man was being attacked with a 40 cal. hand gun and a knife with a 6 inch blade. I wasn't there but I'm sure emotions were running pretty high. So the manner in which he killed his attacker didn't really matter to those of us on the jury. We determined he had the right to use "deadly force". What ever deadly force he used was exceptible. remember this all happened in a matter of seconds. He was the victim!!!!

As I said in my first posting, This cost this man 3 years of his life. For an event that was so self defense. His actions were completely exceptable to us. And we were proud to find him not guilty.

 

[Acmemfg]

Kentucky does have some interesting bail bond laws-

"In Kentucky “All persons shall be bailable before conviction, except when death is a possible punishment for the offense or offenses charged and the proof is evident or the presumption is great that the defendant is guilty.” RCr 4.02.

Under Kentucky law, “A defendant shall be released on personal recognizance or upon an unsecured bail bond unless the court determines, in the exercise of its discretion, that such release will not reasonably assure the appearance of the defendant as required.” RCr 4.10

Bail Factors:

The typical criteria for bail involves the assessment of a number of factors some of which will include the following: the dangerousness of the crime, anticipated conduct if released, your previous criminal record, your ties to the community, and your ability to pay. In every misdemeanor case release on recognizance, “ROR,” is the ultimate goal. Even if you are not eligible for an ROR, an experienced attorney can significantly improve your chances of getting your bail reduced to an amount that you or your family members can afford

In Kentucky, the Courts are required to use the least restrictive conditions when setting your bail.

Conditions of Release may include:

Placing you in the custody of a designated person or organization agreeing to supervise the defendant or
placing restrictions on your travel, association or place of abode during the period of release
Other condition including a condition requiring you to return to custody after specified hours.
Authorized methods of pretrial release in Kentucky

Personal Recognizance
Unsecured Bail Bond
Nonfinancial Conditions
Executed Bail Bond *
With sufficient personal surety acceptable to the court; or
With a deposit with the court of a sum of money equal to at least ten percent of the bond; or
(iii) with a deposit with the court of cash equal to the amount of the bond; or
With stocks or bonds which are not exempt from execution and which over and above all liabilities and encumbrances have a value equal to the total amount of the bond; or
With real property having a value over and above all liabilities and encumbrances, equal to twice the value of the bond; or
In cases of motor vehicle traffic violations, with a guaranteed arrest bond certificate as provided in KRS 431.021 ."

Quite different from most other States

 

[jpakstis]

Possibly.

I've been on a few trials where a prospective juror indicated familiarity with one or more parties involved in the case.
One case, I was familiar with the defendant... he was a doctor who had repaired my arm after I put it through a window.

In all cases, the judge simply asked "Would your familiarity impact your ability to make a fair and impartial decision in this case?"

Heh, I had a trial where my sister was in the venire. Defense attorney was wondering whether he should keep her on, depending on how well we got along growing up.

 

[jpakstis]

http://www.occourts.org/directory/criminal/felonybailsched.pdf

California allows for it.

Murder with special circumstances (qualifies for death penalty) is no bail, but otherwise bail is 1,000,000

This is a bit misleading because California Penal Code (which is cited in (B) (1)) states that the potential penalty is what drives the setting of bail/no bail:

"A defendant charged with an offense punishable with death cannot be admitted to bail, when the proof of his or her guilt is evident or the presumption thereof great. The finding of an indictment does not add to the strength of the proof or the presumptions to be drawn therefrom." California Penal Code 1270.5

So it not the eventual penalty that drives the bail determination, but highest possible penalty.

 

[Rockminer]

Does this really mean that people with money can walk out of the door, while people without money have to stay in jail?

That sounds pretty scary to me.

Edit: I just read that there is a kind of insurance policy ("bondsman"?) for people who cannot pay themselves ... that at least makes it a bit less scary

Fortunately or unfortunately, depending on how you want to look at it, money makes the world go around, the court system here is no different. If you can afford bail ( in states that require bail ) you can get out. If you can't afford it, you stay in jail ( in most cases ). Same goes with hiring a lawyer, or anything else that involves paying for services rendered. One has the right to have an attorney appointed to them, by the state, if they can't afford one.

I'm not sure about the laws in The Netherlands, so I can't comment on how it is there.

Law abiding citizens who defend themselves from life threatening situations, are very scary propositions for many reasons. Financial bankruptcy, crooked cops, judges, attorneys and DA's are only a small part of that. Factor in the possibility of the victims family wanting some payback and you get the idea. I'm not saying these things are rampant but they do exist. Once we get some more info on the OP's case, we can try and find out if any hanky panky was involved here as well.

 

[jpakstis]

Yes I reported the incident to the Judge assigned the case. His response, not his job. Law enforcement same answer. Took a lot of work and I mean a lot of work, lost my job, but finally they investigated Prosecuter White of Cleveland Federal DOJ, he was planning on being promoted to US Attorney General staff, instead arrested for sending innocent people to prison for stats and bonses, etc.(Cleveland Plain Dealer newspaper) Anyone that says promotions, bonuses, etc. not part of the job never worked in US Federal Law Enforcement in management.

Well, this is just crazy. It seems to have colored your view of the criminal justice system (as well it should), but I have never ever heard of any sort of bonuses or other financial remuneration for convictions by prosecutors. Sure, you do a great job on a high profile case and you might get promoted, but that's not corruption. That shows you can handle a certain aspect of the job you were eventually promoted to.

This is not a bad b movie, it is real life and real life decisions.

We, as prosecutors, have a lot of discretion and sometimes don't realize how much seemingly mundane decisions can really impact peoples' lives, even in small ways (like subpoenaing a witness who might not be essential "just in case" and they end up having to take a day off of work, arrange child care and/or travel, etc.), but sometimes it can go too far. Can you forward me a link to the story on this? I am having a devil of a time looking it up and it sounds like its worth a read.

 

[acesn8s]

One of the jury panel questions is whether the prospective juror knows any the defendant(s), the witnesses, or the attorneys. So I guess in the scenario above the juror might raise his/her hand. But just because the attorney is well known, you can't determine whether the defendant's financial status. Many high profile attorneys might take a case for less than their usual fee, or even pro bono. Or sometimes the court might appoint a private attorney as public counsel for the case (here in MA, the majority of indigent defendants are represented by private attorneys who are court-appointed - "Whitey" Bulger's counsel is a well known attorney in this are and was court-appointed). But how often does this scenario actually happen?

Thanks for clarifying. I envisioned actually knowing the person (as in a neighbor or fried), as opposed to just being able to recognize them.

 

[jpakstis]

Does this really mean that people with money can walk out of the door, while people without money have to stay in jail?

The point of bail is to ensure the defendant's return to court. Usually the presumption is toward personal recognizance, i.e. not having a bail amount set. However, as the severity of the crime increases, the risk of flight increases as well. Bail should not be set to keep someone in jail, but to provide enough financial disincentive to flee. I've seen cases where a defendant is held on $250 cash bail because they cannot make it and others where they come up with $50,000 the same day of arraignment. Massachusetts does not allow bail bondsmen. In the "run of the mill" bail determinations, it is the defendant's past history of defaulting on a court appearance, or lack thereof, that will determine the bail amount.

Bail determinations are not meant to take the defendant's financial status into account, except if the court believes that there is a pre-existing determination toward flight (e.g. the defendant was arrested at the airport on a last-minute ticket).

There are other reasons for setting a bail: if the accused represents a threat to a specific person or to the public at-large (usually one of the reasons why domestic violence and drunk-driving cases will usually have a higher bail determination) or some other similar "public safety" concern. One of the reasons murder generally has been excluded from bail statutes (or have been codified as a "no bail") is that the crime itself is so heinous that the alleged perpetrator represents both a flight risk and a danger to the community, which is why murder has no been held apart from bail statutes or has a "no bail" exception.

 

[jpakstis]

Thanks for clarifying. I envisioned actually knowing the person (as in a neighbor or fried), as opposed to just being able to recognize them.

Yeah, if you know them, there is an opportunity to raise that with the court. The full jury panel questioning (which includes questions like that) is fairly lengthy.

 

[jpakstis]

Kentucky does have some interesting bail bond laws-

"In Kentucky “All persons shall be bailable before conviction, except when death is a possible punishment for the offense or offenses charged and the proof is evident or the presumption is great that the defendant is guilty.” RCr 4.02.

Under Kentucky law, “A defendant shall be released on personal recognizance or upon an unsecured bail bond unless the court determines, in the exercise of its discretion, that such release will not reasonably assure the appearance of the defendant as required.” RCr 4.10

Bail Factors:

The typical criteria for bail involves the assessment of a number of factors some of which will include the following: the dangerousness of the crime, anticipated conduct if released, your previous criminal record, your ties to the community, and your ability to pay. In every misdemeanor case release on recognizance, “ROR,” is the ultimate goal. Even if you are not eligible for an ROR, an experienced attorney can significantly improve your chances of getting your bail reduced to an amount that you or your family members can afford

In Kentucky, the Courts are required to use the least restrictive conditions when setting your bail.

Conditions of Release may include:

Placing you in the custody of a designated person or organization agreeing to supervise the defendant or
placing restrictions on your travel, association or place of abode during the period of release
Other condition including a condition requiring you to return to custody after specified hours.
Authorized methods of pretrial release in Kentucky

Personal Recognizance
Unsecured Bail Bond
Nonfinancial Conditions
Executed Bail Bond *
With sufficient personal surety acceptable to the court; or
With a deposit with the court of a sum of money equal to at least ten percent of the bond; or
(iii) with a deposit with the court of cash equal to the amount of the bond; or
With stocks or bonds which are not exempt from execution and which over and above all liabilities and encumbrances have a value equal to the total amount of the bond; or
With real property having a value over and above all liabilities and encumbrances, equal to twice the value of the bond; or
In cases of motor vehicle traffic violations, with a guaranteed arrest bond certificate as provided in KRS 431.021 ."

Quite different from most other States

I'm sure fine wine doesn't want to hear this, being from the Commie/pinko/Kennedy state I'm from biggrin1, but Massachusetts' laws on bail are very similar. The presumption is toward personal recognizance and the way the "bond" situation works basically eliminates bail bondsmen as an option. In Massachusetts, for example if the bail is set at $10,000 the court will actually set a bail in the amount $100,000 surety or a $10,000 cash alternative. A defendant or family member could deed some property worth $100K to the court (which secures the bond) or pay the $10K in cash. The statutes have codified the bail bondsmen's "fee" (i.e. 10% of the property to secure the bond) but can only go through the court. This has eliminated the use of bail bondsmen here.

 

[mswofford]

I'm retired from a career in state law enforcement. I would suggest that Ackvil (Jim) attorney, and jpakstis (Josh) prosecuting attorney along with Fine Wine the OP have done a fine job of explaining our system. It is a complicated subject not easily understood with variance from state to state of self defense laws. If you choose to legally carry a firearm for self defense it is mandatory to know in detail the laws that apply to you; that's your responsibility. That said, I strongly support the concept of concealed carry and have done so since I was a teenager.

 

[Eeyore]

Bail determinations are not meant to take the defendant's financial status into account, except if the court believes that there is a pre-existing determination toward flight (e.g. the defendant was arrested at the airport on a last-minute ticket).

There is no such thing as being released on bail here. I don't know exactly what happens when you don't return for your trial, but I guess the police will try to find you

We don't have jury trials either. All decisions are made by one or more judges.

 

[jpakstis]

There is no such thing as being released on bail here. I don't know exactly what happens when you don't return for your trial, but I guess the police will try to find you

We don't have jury trials either. All decisions are made by one or more judges.

I've always been fascinated about criminal trials, trial procedure, rules of evidence, etc. in other countries. For some reason I've never investigated the Canadian system and I'm embarrassed I have no idea why. But that's interesting and I guess I'll have to "go down the rabbit" hole of the Canadian criminal justice system this afternoon!

The US system, for all of its flaws, has many protections for the accused. And while the vast majority of criminal justice is dealt with by the states and localities, many of these protections are explicitly guaranteed by the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

 

[fine wine]

I'm back, here is the 2 case numbers for the trail I've been trying to talk about.
thishappened in Jefferson county, Kentucky. the date of this event was Dec. 22, 2010. 10CR3557, and 11cr0011.I don't know why there are 2 case numbers. The file is still with the judge. for a small charge you can get a copy of the trail recording for $20.
And as far as the statement "commie, pinko Kennedy Mass." you said it I didn't.

 

[jpakstis]

And as far as the statement "commie, pinko Kennedy Mass." you said it I didn't.

I'm done.

 

[fine wine]

I'm done.

Thank God! Especially since a few of you turned my post into something completely unrelated to what I had orginally said or asked. But then again that's what lawyers do isn't it.................................................JR

 

[fine wine]

I'm retired from a career in state law enforcement. I would suggest that Ackvil (Jim) attorney, and jpakstis (Josh) prosecuting attorney along with Fine Wine the OP have done a fine job of explaining our system. It is a complicated subject not easily understood with variance from state to state of self defense laws. If you choose to legally carry a firearm for self defense it is mandatory to know in detail the laws that apply to you; that's your responsibility. That said, I strongly support the concept of concealed carry and have done so since I was a teenager.

Thank you sir. I also support CCW. Espically for women. But all I was asking about was why did this innocense man spend so much time in jail. I don't know were all that other garbage come from. But then again, sometimes a post will take a life of it's own.....................................................

 

[Rockminer]

I don't know were all that other garbage come from. But then again, sometimes a post will take a life of it's own.....................................................

Maybe from here? I doubt anyone would have brought up bail, had you not typed it.

I could not believe they wasted tax payers money and keep this poor guy in jail for 3 years because he couldn't pay. His bale! What a tragic .

Or here? Nobody brought up Mass. gun laws, or the Kennedy's until you did.

I LOVE FL. STAND YOUR GROUND!!! States like MA. that will have you run from Your own home are totally foolish! And all those foolish anti gun laws they have go back to the Kennedy's.

Most threads have a natural flow, and tend to go in different directions. I'm just trying to figure out how you don't think you had anything to do with that?

 

[Doc4]

This thread seems to have run its course, and the only thing left is to close it before it gets any worse.