We live in a Golden Age of rifles.

[auk1124]

Think about it. You can go out tomorrow and, for a few hundred dollars, buy yourself a rifle that will shoot rings around anything the famous snipers of yesteryear carried into life or death battles. I just got an ad from an affiliate of Bud's for a Savage Axis II in 308 for 260 freaking dollars. A cheap, low end gun by today's standards. That any sniper of WW2 would have killed for.

You can take that Savage Axis, put a set of cheap Weaver bases and rings from Walmart on it, throw on a low end Nikon / Leupold or what have you, and odds are you can get close to or maybe better than MOA out of that rig for the rest of your life. No other generation of shooters on this planet had such accuracy widely available. Previous generations spent fortunes and lifetimes chasing such accuracy.

Go grab a rifle and shoot itty bitty teeny tiny groups into something. Your fathers and grandfathers couldn't do it, but you can.

 

[Lightcs1776]

I agree that there are many great deals on excellent rifles these days. However, my grandfather could drive tacks with his old firearms. He was an amazing shot.

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[Mick]

1930s

1890s

1860s

still pretty darn accurate.

.

 

[noelekal]

Winchester Model 70s from 1937 (.220 Swift), 1947 (.257 Roberts), and 1953 (.30-06) along with a 1990s Model 70 in .375 H&H Magnum. The three pre-64 Model 70s all shoot gratifyingly tight sub-MOA groups with ease from the bench rest. Our fathers and grandfathers were not deprived. Of course proportionally, a Model 70 bit into their salaries a bit more more even back then than does the Savage today.

 

[Merle]

For me, economies of scale weigh in. I can have a highly accurate - and this is truly an appreciation for what you are saying - .22 or .177 PCP air rifle, or .22LR, and drill holes all day long for a fraction of what the per cartridge price of 308, even if you're reloading. And, I could do that in far more urban settings. Then if I have a few more silvers to rub pull out my 5.56, go to the community Range and burn serious money on a few hundred rounds at distance switching up with a spotter working with me for windage and d.o.p.e. 308 would be fine after I have a conditioned shoulder, and 'need' / funds for joining the hunt in competition. (Not that I couldn't find just as meaningful social settings with the other types of equipment.)

 

[auk1124]

That is my point. You guys are picking antique Cadillacs and Jaguars. I am picking modern Chevy Malibus straight off the assembly line. My modern Malibus either hang with, or most likely smoke, your antique Cadillacs and Jaguars. None of you want to admit it, but deep down you know its true. A three hundred dollar junk gun of today is far more likely to be ridiculously accurate straight out of the box than those beautiful old heirlooms ever were.

I am generalizing of course. There are always going to be exceptions. But in general what I say is true. The average cheap department store package rifle of today is a world better than all but a select few rifles of yesteryear.

Not every pre 64 winnie or what have you from back in the day was a lights-out shooter. Most were decidedly average. And "average" back then, was what? Three or four inches at a hundred? What is "average" today? A darn sight smaller...

 

[Lightcs1776]

Winchester Model 70s from 1937 (.220 Swift), 1947 (.257 Roberts), and 1953 (.30-06) along with a 1990s Model 70 in .375 H&H Magnum. The three pre-64 Model 70s all shoot gratifyingly tight sub-MOA groups with ease from the bench rest. Our fathers and grandfathers were not deprived. Of course proportionally, a Model 70 bit into their salaries a bit more more even back then than does the Savage today.

I told my wife that I was in love. She said she couldn't compete with those firearms. You are leading me astray. Ha ha ha.

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[Mick]

There are some nice top shelf rifles out there along with the walmart offerings. All with respectable MOA.

 

[auk1124]

There are some nice top shelf rifles out there along with the walmart offerings. All with respectable MOA.

Yep. Bump up to the next level from my bargain basement example, and a manufacturer of today is likely going to give you a moa guarantee of accuracy. That isn't even top tier stuff. It is incredible when you think about it. 800 bucks or so US will buy you a gun guaranteed to put a group into an inch. If it doesn't, send it back. Amazing.

 

[simon1]

I agree...there are some great lower priced rifles now. A friend was wanting to get his kid a .22 and I recommended a Savage.

But...

 

[Esox]

Some are a good deal yeah, no question. My nephew has a 7mm Mag and a friend has a .22-250. Both rifles themselves are fine, but the stocks are sure lacking. They need to be properly bedded before they'll shoot really well, but for 'all you need' field accuracy, they're good enough as is.

 

[OkieStubble]

Yep. Bump up to the next level from my bargain basement example, and a manufacturer of today is likely going to give you a moa guarantee of accuracy. That isn't even top tier stuff. It is incredible when you think about it. 800 bucks or so US will buy you a gun guaranteed to put a group into an inch. If it doesn't, send it back. Amazing.

Agreed. What WWI soldier wouldn’t trade his heavy, Mauser in 7x57 for a light synthetic Stock and Savages great accurate barrel plus it’s simple accutrigger with a light recoiling and flat shooting modern caliber?

They would be the “Red Baron” of Snipers in their day.

 

[nortac]

Depends on what you mean by "Golden Age". No doubt cheap accuracy is readily available, as is high end and high dollar craftmanship. We can customize modular weapons to our hearts' content. So many calibers available for every conceivable shooting task. Beauty is in the eye of the holder, but some of our modern high tech wonder weapons seem to be lacking in soul compared to the beautiful wood and blue steel of yesteryear. I appreciate and own both types, but not nearly enough of the older classics!

 

[jar_]

My guns, new or old, are all still far more accurate than I am. And unfortunately, I still only have the Mark 1 eyes and not even the Mark 1 eyes I had 50 years ago.

 

[noelekal]

Yep. Three or four inches is all the old pre-64 Wichesters'll can do at 100 yards.



Well, if one makes his generalizations far enough back before '64 that's about all they'll do.

Original Winchester Model 1873 .38-40 on an outing at the local club range about a year ago.





Or, how about a pre-war Winchester Model 94 .32 Winchester Special? This one isn't a three or four inch shooter though. I'm gonna dust it off for deer season this year.



100 yards






Stick a plain ol' 6X Leupold scope on a plain ol' average Model 70 .30-06 bolt gun and ...


Groups shot at 100 yards during an impromptu effort to verify the scope before deer season a couple years back. The larger group is a 5-shot group with two bullets falling in on top of each other. I pulled that shot that "went off toward Jones's."

 

[Merle]

going wildly afield in the story of gee what a wonder modern guns are... I find it incredible how well designed, constructed, installed and Aligned 16 inch tripple main guns for battleships were made for WWII. Everything is huge, humongous, extraordinary in scale up! Yet, these guns were able to lay down accurate point of fire 23 miles down range? My Dad manned a 40mm AA battery right above the dual triples of the USS Tennesse for a majority of the Pacific action... even those, 2 pairs of 2 barrels, on a recoilless mount, were incredibly accurate.

From the net:
'Each gun weighed about 239,000 pounds (108,000 kg) without the breech, and 267,900 pounds (121,517 kg) with the breech. They fired projectiles weighing from 1,900 to 2,700 pounds (850 to 1,200 kg) at a maximum speed of 2,690 feet per second (820 m/s) with a range of up to 24 miles (39 km).'

As you say, the efficiency of manufacturing has created a price point for modern barrels which is unequaled in history. That said if you were a Nation State like we were back when accuracy was something which could be bought; with enough money on the barrel head.

 

[Acmemfg]

Top-Henry.45-70
Middle-Browning A-Bolt .30-06
Henry.30-30
Bottom-Browning BAR .300 Win Mag
All lights out accuracy. Reliable as the day is long.
And...much better looking than any AR I have ever seen.

 

[auk1124]

Depends on what you mean by "Golden Age". No doubt cheap accuracy is readily available, as is high end and high dollar craftmanship. We can customize modular weapons to our hearts' content. So many calibers available for every conceivable shooting task. Beauty is in the eye of the holder, but some of our modern high tech wonder weapons seem to be lacking in soul compared to the beautiful wood and blue steel of yesteryear. I appreciate and own both types, but not nearly enough of the older classics!

I tend to agree on the inherent beauty of good walnut and deep bluing, but I think that is mostly a product of our ages. "Soul" and "beauty" are in the eyes of the beholder. I've never even owned an AR, but I suspect someone younger than me sees them a lot differently than I do and appreciates them a lot more than I ever would.

Can an AR have "soul"? I think that some folks would say yes, though you and I might not see it as readily...

 

[Esox]

I had a gun dealer friend that had an old Winchester octagon barrel 38-55 that would put 3 shots touching at 100 yards. Ditto a friend I deer hunted with that shot an old Winchester 32 Special.

On the other side of that coin, I had an old Savage 99 in .300 Savage that I couldnt manage to hit a 3 foot diameter cardboard sheet with at 75 yards lol.

Some will shoot out of the box and some wont. If a pre 64 M70 wont shoot into an inch or less at 100 yards with a load it likes, it has bedding problems. My fathers old .270 would shoot well under an inch with factory loads.

My first .270, a Browning BBR, I bought new in 1983 would put 4 shots into a cigarette package at 400 yards, but it only shot one load, Winchester 130 grain Silvertip factory loads.

The Sako AIII Deluxe my uncle bought new, in the 1960s I believe, will put 3 Federal Premium 150 grain Nosler Partitions in one hole at 100 yards, but it needed a business card shim between barrel and forend tip to do it. I was deer hunting with that rifle once and on our way out of the bush we were walking along a 4 strand barbed wire fence line. We came across a Dove sitting on the top strand and my brother in law wanted to try and get it, he ate Doves and Pigeons. I said to hang on and let me try. I wrapped into the sling offhand and at the shot the Dove fell forward off the fence, its head gone. What we didnt see, was the Dove on the other side of it that fell off the fence backwards with its head cleanly removed. That was at about 75 yards and I still have one living witness besides myself lol.

My nephew just went back to Alberta from here and he took his fathers old Belgian Browning BAR in .338 Winchester with him. That one will shoot too. He bought it cheap because it would jam. He took it apart and found a burr on the inside of the bolt. He cleaned it up with a Dremel and that rifle came to life. Three of the guys I moose hunted with carried BARs in 7mm Mag. Two will shoot into an inch. Both are Belgians.

 

[simon1]

Can an AR have "soul"? I think that some folks would say yes, though you and I might not see it as readily...

Plastic is man made...wood is a living thing.