Water Softener/Treament Questions

[Phog Allen]

Gents, this has come up a few times over the years and I know I have asked about it before. Well it is getting past the point of asking and getting real close to doing. My wife suffers from very sensitive skin. So do I in the winter. Anyroad, you get the idea with the usual complaints. Scaled up fixtures, flaky dry scalp irritation, etc. All this goes away when she travels and stays in hotel which typically have very soft water treated on site. She's past asking and I came home Thursday to discover we had an in home appointment with a 'water quality' person. Oh boy. I knew what that typically meant. A hard sell from a guy promoting the single most effective and advanced water treatment system in the world. Yada, yada, yada. I have tried to tell her you don't really want to go this route. She wanted a water test which I would have been happy to get done. In fact, I think our local utility will do it for next to nothing.

I won't bore you with the details of the proposed offer but suffice it to say we declined. In fact, several different offers when it became apparent we were not going to sign off on the initial price. This essentially was a softener and a reverse osmosis water filter under one sink and a couple of shower heads. The brand was Hague and later web searches brought up a LOT of negative reviews. I will say we liked our salesman and he was not over pushy. He also did not pull the guilt trip routine to try to sway us. I just felt this was not a decision to made at the dinner table. Oh, the presentation went just over TWO HOURS. Way too long for my liking.

Okay, down to the rat killing. A cursory search of the web brought up almost universal praise for the Fleck 5600 XST water softener. This is available with manual timer control or a slightly more advanced version with some electronics to manage the regeneration cycles a little more efficiently. The 48,000 grain model runs well under $600 from Amazon and some other sellers. The 'system' we were shown also included what amounts to a reverse osmosis water filter under one sink. These can be had for well under three hundred dollars. So as you can see, you are paying quite a lot for these packaged systems. Mostly commission and labour I am sure. I am also fully aware that this sort of install is beyond the average home owner's abilities. Not to mention you can run into local building code issues. Fortunately I know a professional plumber or three so this would be doable from my end of things. What I am having the most issue with is space. As in, I don't have any.

My utility/laundry area is built like the tyical 5' x 9' spec house bathroom in most American homes. You enter a door on the narrow end of the room and immediately to the left or right, you will have a sink/base cabinet on the pluming wall(one long side of the room). This will be followed by a toilet and then at the far end of the room the tub is mounted across the back wall. The utility is the same way only replace the sink and toilet with a furnace just off the door, then a tank water heater, and then the laundry machines across the back wall. This leaves little to no room for a softener tank. Has anyone else run into this situation?

There is an enclosed garage off the opposite long wall of the utility room and I could plumb pex water line up the pluming wall, across the five foot span of the ceiling, punch through the wall and set the softener in the garage. I have no idea at the moment if this is building and plumbing code acceptable but I am assuming it is not. At the very least I can manage a whole house filter arrangement which would help with with sediment, odour, and taste but would do nothing to reduce calcium scale. Thoughts?

 

[hotwheels]

I used to live in a place with very hard water. We had a zeolite water filtration system that made the water much softer. No problems with scale in the washing machine, dish washer, coffee maker etc.

 

[mark1JT]

If you can get a water softener installed such that all but your drinking water sources and exterior taps are soft water. It will change your life! I too have sensitive dry skin. Since getting a softener installed I no longer itch all the time and I don't even use moisturizer on my arms, legs, etc anymore. Shampoo, body, and shave soap all lathers way better and with less product. Well worth the investment for the increase in quality of life.

 

[sfeile]

I have pretty much every crappy thing in my well water you can imagine. The worst was the iron. It was so bad that it stained laundry, the washer, the shower, even dishes. While I was renting I had to replace the toilet, in less than 3 months there was an irremovable stain in the bowl. The tank would collect a film of iron that was like clay that was a half inch thick. Not to mention what it was doing to our skin and hair, and forget drinking it. It even stained a new stainless steel sink in 6 months.

I bought the house last fall, and the first thing I did was call a guy down the road called Aqua Clean. He probably won't be in your area, but he put an entire system in for me. I paid $2600, but got a commercial grade self cleaning reverse osmosis filtration unit and softener.
IMHO...... Worth EVERY penny spent. You can cook with the water, wash white clothes, no stains, use less soap, skin and hair feel great. Heck, I can even lather with the tap water now. Before just rinsing my brushes in it ruined the bristles.
Shower heads last longer than 3 months, new toilet still looks new. My new white sinks in my bathroom are still white.

The only thing with it, is I have to occasionally clean my faucet and shower screens because it is actually cleaning the buildup out of the lines.

Great investment all around. Bite the bullet and get a full house system. You won't be disappointed.

 

[hotwheels]

The zeolite filtration system was really simple, by the way. It was a clear inline filter filled with zeolite chunks. I think the filter lasted years for a three-apartment building before it needed to be replaced.

 

[Lmarkow]

I have well water. Without the softener, I'd be stuck shaving with Proraso only. Not that that would be so horrible, but . . . .

 

[dfoulk]

I don't know where you live but here in Arizona we all have water softeners in our garages. Back east they would normally go in the basement, however I'm not sure if that's a convenience thing or a necessity. You'll need space for the softener unit and don't forget space for the salt tank. It's definitely worth doing if you live in an area that has hard water. If you don't then you likely don't need it but it may still improve your water a bit. A simple water hardness test will tell you where you're at there.

I have a 56,000 grain system and have it cranked up high for really soft water. At first the water feels almost slimy like you still have soap on you, but what the slimy feel is is the absence of the small sand like particles and grit that you're rubbing in your skin. Once you get used to it you'll like it a lot better. It makes a huge difference. My skin and hair is way softer and we use a lot less soap in all of the appliances, not to mention it adds to their longevity. Hard water destroys washing machines and dishwashers. It also allows me to use a lot less shaving soap as the soap goes much farther, so there's that also along with easier lathering.

We're we live it's pretty much a necessity to have a water softener as I read somewhere a while back that we have the second hardest water in the nation. So when I run out of salt the water is absolutely terrible, the dishwasher can't get the glasses clear and it takes twice as much soap for everything. Not to mention what it does to the faucets.

There are tons of high pressure sales companies selling water softeners and RO units for inflated prices. Skip all of those as they will do some tests and try to scare you with the things floating in your drinking water. I've seen people pay 4k to 6k for a water softener and RO unit from these companies. Sure, they'll finance it for you as well. Here you can get one from the local Home Depot or Lowes installed for about $1200 to $1400. I bought mine used off of Craigslist for $250 and installed it myself because I figured why not. The RO units are a generally a couple hundred bucks and can be installed with some average DIY knowledge and minimal tools.

The RO system is completely separate and serves a completely different purpose from the softener, which is to provide drinking water that tastes like bottled water. These are nice to have as well depending on what your water is like. Back east we didn't need it, here it's necessary.

 

[mrb7]

Check your local restrictions. Some places you can't have a salt unit.

 

[Commander Quan]

My municipalities water is insanely hard. The annual report says 29 grains per gallon. I used to have to buy a new coffee pot every 9 months.

About 5 years ago I went with a Whirlpool 44,000 grain from Lowes, and couldn't be happier. Other than the calcium we don't have any other issues with smell or taste so the salt system was all we needed. I just tapped into the line after the meter we now have perfect water through the whole house.

Shaving is much more fun now.

 

[djm2]

Depending on the water that you have, you may want to have the system plumbed so that drinking and exterior water is not softened. Plants do not need soft water, and my taste buds are not fond of it. I suspect that the recommendation that some have made for reverse osmosis is to provide a viable source of drinking water after the salt cycles.

 

[Bobbers]

I was a Plumbing manager for years at Menards (big box lumber yard). I would recommend a WaterBoss softener they have a smaller foot print and are more efficient then other brands uses less salt and water during the regeneration cycle. I would also suggest a whole house filter installed before the softener. I have installed the WaterBoss in 2 of my houses. Without know what you want to take out of the water it is hard to say what filter type would work best. I am guessing you have city water and if you contact the water company they can provide you with a detail report of what is in your what. They have to test the water on a regular basis and have to have records. Usually the softener is installed close to where the water comes in to the house and just after the outdoor hose bibs. With that said I have seen then installed on the opposite end of the house, you just need to run the pipe to and from the unit.

 

[Phog Allen]

Robert, as fate would have it, there is a brand new Menard's not six blocks from my house. Indeed, we are on city water. And yes, I fully intend to put a whole house filter on the main line just after the main shut off valve. In fact, I am going to install two filter bodies. The first in line will be a pure sediment filter. The next will be an odour, chemical, and possibly cryptosporidium. The latter would be a carbon block filter of around 1 micron. The first would be around five microns. Oddly, there is a filter(Omni T08) that runs a fairly large, 25 micron that is rated for sediment, odour, and chlorine. I really don't know why you would install it other than to have a one filter solution for whole house and then finer filters under each sink.

Personally I would rather have the two stage filter setup since the sediment filter would pick up 99 percent of the floaties, dirt, and whatever. This saves the carbon block filter from loading up too quickly and make it last a lot longer. The sediment filters are about ten dollars apiece and I would start off replacing them every two months and see how it goes. The carbon block filters typically cost from 16-30 dollars apiece depending upon construction and filtering capabilities. The less they have to filter the better. The filters I am speaking of are around four inches in diameter and around 12 inches tall. Much more area than the typical under sink filters. I also want the clear housings on the filter holders. You would be surprised how absolutely horrid your water will look and it gives you a strong reminder to keep that filter changed. On the other hand, I have seen some videos that claim you can rinse the pleated sediment filters out and use them a second or third time. What do you think?

Thanks for the feedback on the Water Boss. I saw them there the other day and frankly, didn't look long since I had never heard of them. I did notice they seemed to have a smaller footprint than some of the others which is a bonus. And I am going to have to do some planning on how to plumb whole thing. My house was built in 72 and I amp pretty sure the lines run to the outdoor hose bibs are not discreet from the rest of the cold water plumbing. Could be a royal pain to get them isolated from the softener loop. I have also decided to keep the unit in the utility room. Just on the other side from the water heater. I will rig it up to make it quickly removable in case we need to move one of the laundry machines out. Another pain but I really don't how else to do it and keep the brine tank close to a floor drain.

 

[martym]

I just signed up with Culligan. Renting the HE Municipal with whole home softening and filtering. They provide all supplies and servicing. I only pay rental fee. I don't know the exact wording but my water is 21 grains. Blah blah blah. All I know is I am constantly changing faucets and snaking drains because of calcium! Hopefully that ends soon!!
I don't know if renting is an option for you but it was/is for me!
marty

 

[martym]

My municipalities water is insanely hard. The annual report says 29 grains per gallon. I used to have to buy a new coffee pot every 9 months.

About 5 years ago I went with a Whirlpool 44,000 grain from Lowes, and couldn't be happier. Other than the calcium we don't have any other issues with smell or taste so the salt system was all we needed. I just tapped into the line after the meter we now have perfect water through the whole house.

Shaving is much more fun now.

29 grains! Wow! Ours is 21 and it is gross. I think it is actually coming directly from the Rio Grande River. I cannot imagine it being worse.

 

[Bobbers]

If you decide you need an RO water filter for drinking water do some research not all are created equal. The finished filtered water will be the same quality but the cost per gallon can vary a lot. I have installed an Omni brand one in a previous and liked it. The 2 pre-filters and the post filter are standard and can be picked up anywhere the RO membrane was the only specialized filter in the system. Some companies that sell RO systems use propitiatory filters that you have to get from them. Kind of like Segal razors and blades. The things that might be of interest to check out is how much water does the system waste to make a gallon of filtered water, I have seen systems that are as good as 1 gal of waste and 1 gal of filtered water on the other end I have seen 10 gal of waste and 1 gal of filtered water. The other thing to look at is how much water it will make in a 24 hour period and what size the holding tank is. If you have any other questions just ask.

 

[Phog Allen]

Robert, we will probably forego the RO filter. As you mentioned, there is a wide variance in performance, the filters are expensive, and no matter what they waste some water. Our water here is actually very cheap. It's the solid waste, sewage, and recycling fees that jack our bill up. Most of the time the water part of the bill is around 18-20 dollars. So even if a RO bumped it to say, $25 per month, it would not be a deal breaker. I just don't like the idea of having to wade through the fine print to figure out which is most effective. A good two or three stage carbon filter system under the sink will provide perfectly safe, good tasting water. Particularly if pre-filtered through a whole house unit.

We are going to check out the Water Boss softener models closely this week. The plumber guys at work hate dealing with softeners because they say they break all the time. They do allow as how it is because of poor upkeep most times. That and good install. They all universally said the whole house filter just past the main water valve would do wonders for keeping the softener valve and controller from acting up as much as some models do. Just keeping the sediment and floaties out remedies most malfunctions.

 

[mrb7]

Does anyone have any advice for very alkaline water. It's actually pretty soft already. I don't remember the TDS from the county report but it's pretty low.

But the pH is around 8.5. Some days it even feels kinda slick from the high pH.

 

[Phog Allen]

mrb7, I am unsure of how to handle alkaline water. I am assuming this is the opposite of hard water but I don't know chemistry very well. Let us know what you find out.

 

[mrb7]

Not exactly the opposite of hard water. Hard water can be alkaline as well.

I got a county analysis, and the TDS is down in the dirt. The water isn't hard at all. But the pH is higher than I want, although not unsafe. It is county water, after all.

But it makes the laundry pill a bit worse than neutral water.

Worse, however, is that it plays havoc with darkroom chemistry, especially things like cyanotype developers. Something I do, that's a real PITA I'd like to stop doing, is neutralize the water with a few drops of whatever acid I have handy. It works fine, but it's a real pain to do.

Naturally I'm not going to fabricate an acid injection mixer for my washing machine. That's nuts.

So I'd like to know if there's a device, like a water softener, that addresses pH. I'm not a domestic water specialist by a long shot.

 

[ElectroMike]

I have no personal experience with a full house water treatment system but I do own a small, under the counter R/O set up for drinking water. My City water is not bad but there is high iron, chlorine smell and other crap which the town fails to control according to the tests they mail us when they fail to comply, so I would not drink it, ever!

I have owned an Omni two stage filter in the past but once I went with R/O, about 5+ years ago, my family and I do not look back. I have a small (~1.75gal) storage tank, pre and post filters and the membrane, oh and a Permeate pump. The company I bought it from uses high quality components, including John Guest fittings and lines. Recovery is fairly quick, it for each gallon of good water, it wastes 4 gallons.

The kit comes with all the fittings, mounting hardware and they supply longer lines by request at no additional charge. The initial investment was about $400, annual maintenance cost is about $40 for both filters and every 3-5 years another $50 for the membrane, then a new storage tank after about 10 years.

It brings my city water from about 370 TDS down to under 20 TDS. Coffee never tasted better and once I got used to the taste or lack off, I actually fill a gallon jug and bring it with me to work, instead of paying for bottled water.

If anyone is interested, I can provide you with a company name and product I used, I've been very happy with it. I actually found them thru my friend who also has the same set up and since he was a Chemistry major, I trusted his research!

Oh and for those worried that the R/O may take out the minerals out of the drinking water, which one may desire in addition to getting it from food and vitamins, well my post filter is a coconut shell calcite filter, so it puts the good minerals back into the drinking water!