Could be. I don't have an 8" label like it to compare it to but I'll google one later and see.
Washita Thread. Show off, discuss, etc.
- Thread starter SliceOfLife
- Start date
Sweet label, I like that one.
This is my pile of rocks, shown in the attached photo with some identifying text where known.
I cleaned the stones by lightly lapping them (sometimes together) with Silicon Carbide grit to flatten the surfaces. They still look stained from old oil and residual iron. Is there any advantage to cleaning them with solvents, either a petroleum distillate (naphtha?), or a surfactant, to remove more of the old oil?
Some stones are partially identified by their labels, and others are not. The two Lily White stones are glued to the original boxes. The one on the left is identified by an ink stamp in the box lid. The one on the right is not and may be a Rosy Red. They feel like hard Arkansas. The early Pike stone on the left is very consistent and very nice.
The stone in the foreground is a Translucent Arkansas which feels finer than any of the Washita stones.
All these Washitas make swarf fairly quickly when using light mineral oil, but not as quickly as a Naniwa Professional #3000 Waterstone (with water) which makes a uniform scratch pattern and a tenacious burr.
The Woodworkers' Delight has its label on the other side. The three bands are the remains of dirt after some lapping.
The Norton No. 1 stones have a label on the side, but no end labels to identify the grade.
Please will someone identify the three brown stones on the right (one was broken)? I presume they are Washitas because they feel hard (not soft like sandstone). They all look and feel like novaculite.
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I have gotten them gleaming white soaking in undiluted simple green for an extended period of time. I tend to soak, rinse off, dry the surface, wrap in paper towels and then depending on the size a sealed container or wrapped in several plastic shopping bags for a day or two. More stuff always migrates to the surface and the tissue ends up soaked in oil residue. Then back in the green till gleaming again. I have kept going till nothing kicked up in the past. It's kind of amazing how white you can get one.
Yep, exactly; you need repeat soaks to get them white. They will turn white on the first soak but the oil will continue to seep out and they'll change back to orange/ brown again. If you want them truly as white as they will get, keep repeating the soaking until they stay white.
The ones on the right could be Washita or Soft Ark. No telling for sure without checking S.G. The trouble with that on a Washita is that they are porous, and depending whether they're filled with oil or water or not you'll get a different reading. One of the old tests for Washita grades was the amount of water weight they'd absorb. However if they're filled with oil that will be hard to test.
The ones on the right could be Washita or Soft Ark. No telling for sure without checking S.G. The trouble with that on a Washita is that they are porous, and depending whether they're filled with oil or water or not you'll get a different reading. One of the old tests for Washita grades was the amount of water weight they'd absorb. However if they're filled with oil that will be hard to test.
kelbro
Alfred Spatchcock
I have a washita or two that are colored like those on the right. Most of my soft arks are a little lighter color.
Thank you. A $17 gallon of Simple Green was next to the Purple Power at my local friendly NAPA store. Some of the stones are now lying on toothpicks in a Pyrex dish filled with undiluted Simple Green and covered with Seran Wrap.
Is there a purpose in containing them in paper towel between soaks in the Simple Green? Can I rinse the stones in water, dry them and put them directly back in the Simple Green for another cycle?
What is the distinction between Soft or Hard Arkansas and Washitas - other than the locality of the mines? I have a Dan's Hard First Quality (not Translucent) which feels very similar to the Lily White and Norton No. 1. I also have a Dan's Soft Arkansas that feels like the brown Washitas.
Is there a purpose in containing them in paper towel between soaks in the Simple Green? Can I rinse the stones in water, dry them and put them directly back in the Simple Green for another cycle?
What is the distinction between Soft or Hard Arkansas and Washitas - other than the locality of the mines? I have a Dan's Hard First Quality (not Translucent) which feels very similar to the Lily White and Norton No. 1. I also have a Dan's Soft Arkansas that feels like the brown Washitas.
I believe wrapping in paper towel was just to soak up more oil as it comes out of the stone.
I think the difference in hard and Soft has to do with Specific Gravity and how fine they are.
You could always let them sit after a soak and wait for the oil to migrate to the surface that way. The tissue and container/bag deal just seems to force the issue a bit and the paper absorbs some vs letting it stick around.
Typically, coarse to fine - Washita, Soft Ark, Hard Ark then the class of hard ark that has the Transluscent stones in it.
Washita, or Qauchita, was named for the area they were quarried in originally. In the early days, Pike's Washita #1 was standard and Lilly White was 'finer' then you had the finer soft arks, then the even finer hard Arks. I have read about Washita #2 but I have not seen one labeled that way. There are older un-numbered Washita from the 50s, I wonder if they were the #2 stones? Just guessing there. The difference between them all though, is density, not quarry location - not exactly anyway. Softer stones were taken from different spots, like the Rosy Red Washita, which came from Pike's Rosy Red quarry. Harder stones were quarried elsewhere. But, it all comes down to silica density, and friability. Washita were very friable and softer (less dense), so they were fast and easier to use.
Washita, or Qauchita, was named for the area they were quarried in originally. In the early days, Pike's Washita #1 was standard and Lilly White was 'finer' then you had the finer soft arks, then the even finer hard Arks. I have read about Washita #2 but I have not seen one labeled that way. There are older un-numbered Washita from the 50s, I wonder if they were the #2 stones? Just guessing there. The difference between them all though, is density, not quarry location - not exactly anyway. Softer stones were taken from different spots, like the Rosy Red Washita, which came from Pike's Rosy Red quarry. Harder stones were quarried elsewhere. But, it all comes down to silica density, and friability. Washita were very friable and softer (less dense), so they were fast and easier to use.
I would never put my rocks in a dishwasher, or expose them to heat (like boiling water). They would be at risk for cracking from thermal shock. I have tried using Dawn Platinum foaming dish soap in the blue plastic bottles from Walmart. It works okay as an emulsifier, but I think Simple Green has worked better. The active ingredients in Simple Green are Ethoxylated Alcohol and Sodium Citrate which seem to emulsify oil. A three day soak in Simple Green, followed by a day of dilution in about twenty water changes, has cleaned these vintage stones quite well. They still stink of Sassafras, the fragrance in the Simple Green. Pink GP66 is my preferred de-greaser. IPA, or a petroleum solvent like Naphtha, may be more effective. (When I have another dirty stone, I’ll try other methods.) The stones continued to release oil into the rinse water, seen as sheen on the surface, but they are now clean enough, and I have flattened them with Silicon Carbide grit.
To help understand these stones, I bought a Dan's Whetstone Co. Washita and a Soft Arkansas - both very nice new, clean, fast cutting stones with excellent flat surfaces. Both Dan's stones are slightly more coarse and more porous than any of these vintage Pike/Norton Washita stones. Dan’s Hard Arkansas is slightly finer than my old Pike's Lily White stone. In this photograph, the stones range from coarse on the left to fine on the right. Black Arkansas may be slightly finer than the Translucent.
All these stones are novaculite, but it seems like the Norton material is different from Dan’s, in appearance, feel, and with different grade classification — different material from different quarries. Dan’s Washita is not the same as Pike’s Washita. Dan’s is a grade classification and Pike’s seems to be locality (Ouchita Mountains, AR).
I can’t measure the relative density of the stones because they are porous and partially filled with oil, but the harder, denser stones have a different ring when tapped with steel. A Pike's Lily White Washita rings like a Dan’s Hard Arkansas, indicating similar density. The Translucent and Black Arkansas stones are best suited to final polishing of an edge.
My experience with the Novaculite stones is that both Dan's and Pike's Washita stones sharpen tools very well — chisels, plane irons, etc. — leaving a polished/burnished edge. If necessary, I use an India stone to remove nicks first (or a Tormek water cooled grinder if needed).
The Hard, Translucent and Black Arkansas stones are best suited to finishing straight razor edges. They make the best edges in my experience. I use a thin mineral oil or synthetic (non-sulfur) paraffin lamp oil as a lubricant which prevents the stone surface from glazing and keeps the swarf suspended for easy clean-up. Wiping with a microfiber cloth leaves no lint (like paper towel).
To help understand these stones, I bought a Dan's Whetstone Co. Washita and a Soft Arkansas - both very nice new, clean, fast cutting stones with excellent flat surfaces. Both Dan's stones are slightly more coarse and more porous than any of these vintage Pike/Norton Washita stones. Dan’s Hard Arkansas is slightly finer than my old Pike's Lily White stone. In this photograph, the stones range from coarse on the left to fine on the right. Black Arkansas may be slightly finer than the Translucent.
All these stones are novaculite, but it seems like the Norton material is different from Dan’s, in appearance, feel, and with different grade classification — different material from different quarries. Dan’s Washita is not the same as Pike’s Washita. Dan’s is a grade classification and Pike’s seems to be locality (Ouchita Mountains, AR).
I can’t measure the relative density of the stones because they are porous and partially filled with oil, but the harder, denser stones have a different ring when tapped with steel. A Pike's Lily White Washita rings like a Dan’s Hard Arkansas, indicating similar density. The Translucent and Black Arkansas stones are best suited to final polishing of an edge.
My experience with the Novaculite stones is that both Dan's and Pike's Washita stones sharpen tools very well — chisels, plane irons, etc. — leaving a polished/burnished edge. If necessary, I use an India stone to remove nicks first (or a Tormek water cooled grinder if needed).
The Hard, Translucent and Black Arkansas stones are best suited to finishing straight razor edges. They make the best edges in my experience. I use a thin mineral oil or synthetic (non-sulfur) paraffin lamp oil as a lubricant which prevents the stone surface from glazing and keeps the swarf suspended for easy clean-up. Wiping with a microfiber cloth leaves no lint (like paper towel).
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timwcic
"Look what I found"
Did some housecleaning today so time for a family portrait of some of my favorite Washita’s. Have a few more but they did not make the cut. They are 3/4 to 1 1/4 thick and up to 9” long. At one time, easy to find at the markets but slowly getting harder to find quality rocks.
These three are my go to bevel stones. All are on the softer, easier to use stones
These three are my oddities, two Woodworkers Delight and a combo Washita-India stone
A pair of labeled No. 1 Quality Washita
And my lucky to have babies, three Lily White Washita and a Rosy Red Washita. The bright white soft in the middle is used also on bevels
These three are my go to bevel stones. All are on the softer, easier to use stones
These three are my oddities, two Woodworkers Delight and a combo Washita-India stone
A pair of labeled No. 1 Quality Washita
And my lucky to have babies, three Lily White Washita and a Rosy Red Washita. The bright white soft in the middle is used also on bevels
Very very nice stones, Tim. Have you spent much time with the Rosy Red? They are one of the few touted stones that I have that’s actually lived up to the hype, which is likely why you never see them for sale.
Some really nice stones you guys have!
I see some of the Lilly Whites with as many as two ratings on the side of the stone. Sometimes it will just be "medium" for instance and others might be "medium" followed by "fine grit". It seems that Norton went out of their way to insure the customer received just what he wanted. Was it only the Lilly Whites that had this rating?
If anyone is curious about their stones SPG here is a link to how that test is performed. It will also give an absorption number that could also tell you how porous the stone is. It requires weight in water but could also be done by weighing in a container of water.
https://www.pavementinteractive.org...gate-tests/coarse-aggregate-specific-gravity/
I see some of the Lilly Whites with as many as two ratings on the side of the stone. Sometimes it will just be "medium" for instance and others might be "medium" followed by "fine grit". It seems that Norton went out of their way to insure the customer received just what he wanted. Was it only the Lilly Whites that had this rating?
If anyone is curious about their stones SPG here is a link to how that test is performed. It will also give an absorption number that could also tell you how porous the stone is. It requires weight in water but could also be done by weighing in a container of water.
https://www.pavementinteractive.org...gate-tests/coarse-aggregate-specific-gravity/
timwcic
"Look what I found"
I have not spent time with it and steel, yet. Have only been ogling as it sits on my workbench. I do look forward to playing with it.
From 1902 National Builder.
- Thread starter
- #37
Neat. I've got a medium fine grit Lily White. That's the only surviving end label I think I've got.
Been picking up quite a few labeled washita's lately. Partly luck and partly I've been spending real money on them to get ahead of a price increase I suspect is coming. Current collection should have me set up on Washita's for awhile.
2x Woodworkers delight 10x2"
1x Woodworkers delight 8x2"
4x Lily White 8x2"
1x Rosy Red 8x2"
1x lower grade 8x2"
1x lower grade 7x2"
1x Red translucent 9x1.5" (This thing absolutely melts through steel, not fine at all, but looks like a washita bred with a translucent hard ark).
Been picking up quite a few labeled washita's lately. Partly luck and partly I've been spending real money on them to get ahead of a price increase I suspect is coming. Current collection should have me set up on Washita's for awhile.
2x Woodworkers delight 10x2"
1x Woodworkers delight 8x2"
4x Lily White 8x2"
1x Rosy Red 8x2"
1x lower grade 8x2"
1x lower grade 7x2"
1x Red translucent 9x1.5" (This thing absolutely melts through steel, not fine at all, but looks like a washita bred with a translucent hard ark).
I have mostly unlabeled stones, some had shadows of where Norton labels were.
The pamphlet "Pike Oilstones: How To select and Use Them" has some interesting reading also. I think we can get a pretty good idea or what stone grade we are looking at without a label. Not sure when it was published but must have been 1902 or before as it was referenced in the above article. It's interesting that they considered the flint rock as practically worthless.
"The Washita and Arkansas stones are quarried in the state of Arkansas, U. S. A., near the celebrated Hot Springs. They are quite similar in general appearance, both being white or nearly so, but the Arkansas is very much harder, more compact, and finer grained than the Washita. There are various qualities of Arkansas and Washita rock, from a perfect, fast-cutting grit to the vitreous, flinty rock that is practically worthless."
"The Washita stone is supplied in several qualities. The best is the Lily White brand, next in order are the Extra, Number One, and Number Two qualities. Each of these qualities is made in all shapes and sizes required for different kinds of tools.
The Lily White Brand, or quality, is selected from the very best rock, each stone is tested at the factory, and labeled, telling whether it is a Soft, Coarse or a Hard, Fine grit. Every Lily White stone, whether of coarse or fine grade, is of uniform grit throughout, free from hard or soft spots, or streaks, and fast cutting. Each stone is perfectly white, carefully finished and bears a guarantee label. The manufacturer warrants each stone to be just as labeled and to give absolute satisfaction; hence neither the dealer nor the mechanic take any risk on this stone, as it will be replaced free of charge if not satisfactory.
The Number One Quality Washita is a well-finished stone, free from cracks, quartz, or noticeable imperfections. It is the most largely used brand on account of its lower price, but as there are both hard and soft stones in this grade, and they are not warranted, the stone should be selected by an experienced judge.
The Number Two Quality Washita is, as its name would imply, a second-quality stone. It usually contains some quartz streaks, “sand holes,”or other imperfections, but always has one or more serviceable faces, and many very excellent cutting stones can be found in this grade.
In addition to the above-named grades of Washita stone, there is also the Rosy Red, which is very similar in cutting qualities to the Lily White, except that it is generally a little softer and coarser. This stone is streaked with orange or dull red color, which indicates a soft, porous grit. It is a guaranteed brand, and is well adapted for grinding down dull tools or wherever rapid work is required.
The difference between a hard and soft Washita stone can be told in several ways: first, by the sight, as in a soft stone the minute pores are usually apparent to the eye, and the surface of the stone will have an open, granulated appearance; second, by scratching with a knife blade, as a soft stone can be quite readily scratched on the edges, whereas a hard stone will show very little impression; third, by the sound, holding the stone loosely by one end between the thumb and forefinger and tapping it with ai-nife light hammer, or any metal substance; the stone will sound dead like wood where as a hard stone gives forth a metallic ring."
The full read can be found here and they talk of other types of stones also.
https://archive.org/stream/PikeOilstonesHowToSelectAndUseThem/Pike Oilstones How to Select and Use Them_djvu.txt
The pamphlet "Pike Oilstones: How To select and Use Them" has some interesting reading also. I think we can get a pretty good idea or what stone grade we are looking at without a label. Not sure when it was published but must have been 1902 or before as it was referenced in the above article. It's interesting that they considered the flint rock as practically worthless.
"The Washita and Arkansas stones are quarried in the state of Arkansas, U. S. A., near the celebrated Hot Springs. They are quite similar in general appearance, both being white or nearly so, but the Arkansas is very much harder, more compact, and finer grained than the Washita. There are various qualities of Arkansas and Washita rock, from a perfect, fast-cutting grit to the vitreous, flinty rock that is practically worthless."
"The Washita stone is supplied in several qualities. The best is the Lily White brand, next in order are the Extra, Number One, and Number Two qualities. Each of these qualities is made in all shapes and sizes required for different kinds of tools.
The Lily White Brand, or quality, is selected from the very best rock, each stone is tested at the factory, and labeled, telling whether it is a Soft, Coarse or a Hard, Fine grit. Every Lily White stone, whether of coarse or fine grade, is of uniform grit throughout, free from hard or soft spots, or streaks, and fast cutting. Each stone is perfectly white, carefully finished and bears a guarantee label. The manufacturer warrants each stone to be just as labeled and to give absolute satisfaction; hence neither the dealer nor the mechanic take any risk on this stone, as it will be replaced free of charge if not satisfactory.
The Number One Quality Washita is a well-finished stone, free from cracks, quartz, or noticeable imperfections. It is the most largely used brand on account of its lower price, but as there are both hard and soft stones in this grade, and they are not warranted, the stone should be selected by an experienced judge.
The Number Two Quality Washita is, as its name would imply, a second-quality stone. It usually contains some quartz streaks, “sand holes,”or other imperfections, but always has one or more serviceable faces, and many very excellent cutting stones can be found in this grade.
In addition to the above-named grades of Washita stone, there is also the Rosy Red, which is very similar in cutting qualities to the Lily White, except that it is generally a little softer and coarser. This stone is streaked with orange or dull red color, which indicates a soft, porous grit. It is a guaranteed brand, and is well adapted for grinding down dull tools or wherever rapid work is required.
The difference between a hard and soft Washita stone can be told in several ways: first, by the sight, as in a soft stone the minute pores are usually apparent to the eye, and the surface of the stone will have an open, granulated appearance; second, by scratching with a knife blade, as a soft stone can be quite readily scratched on the edges, whereas a hard stone will show very little impression; third, by the sound, holding the stone loosely by one end between the thumb and forefinger and tapping it with ai-nife light hammer, or any metal substance; the stone will sound dead like wood where as a hard stone gives forth a metallic ring."
The full read can be found here and they talk of other types of stones also.
https://archive.org/stream/PikeOilstonesHowToSelectAndUseThem/Pike Oilstones How to Select and Use Them_djvu.txt
timwcic
"Look what I found"
Nice write up. Here is the original source. Lots of good info
Oilstones : how to select and use them. - Full View | HathiTrust Digital Library | HathiTrust Digital Library
A better link, thank you!
I do like to learn about these stones. I have long considered the Smith's Washita to be a soft Ark. I could very well be wrong about that and I noticed you have a similar colored one in your collection timwcic. What do you guys think? The ones that I have had were really fast and coarse but it's a very limited sample size. Are these the washita's that where mentioned in some the Arkansas geological surveys, perhaps as calico?
Link...
Annual Report of the Geological Survey of Arkansas
I do like to learn about these stones. I have long considered the Smith's Washita to be a soft Ark. I could very well be wrong about that and I noticed you have a similar colored one in your collection timwcic. What do you guys think? The ones that I have had were really fast and coarse but it's a very limited sample size. Are these the washita's that where mentioned in some the Arkansas geological surveys, perhaps as calico?
Link...
Annual Report of the Geological Survey of Arkansas
