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Washita Thread. Show off, discuss, etc.

I have seen that many years ago. Pike purchased many quarries. If you read it cafully it does not say they are all washita quarries. Pike and others also sold hard and soft, each mine produced different quality product. Not one had all the grades.

They keep showing just one washita mine drawing. If there was others why not have another drawing of it?

I had a old advertisement of Pike that stated there was only one Washita mine and if it was not a Pike it was not a Washita. Appparently others were trying to sell soft arks and try and label them as washitas.

Kind of like Eshers and Thuris but a littld different becsuse they stated only one washita mine.

If you look hard enough you should be able to find it.

I have no horses in the race just trying to to help new guys out with things I have seen. Its out there you just have to dig it out.
 
I have seen that many years ago. Pike purchased many quarries. If you read it cafully it does not say they are all washita quarries. Pike and others also sold hard and soft, each mine produced different quality product. Not one had all the grades.

They keep showing just one washita mine drawing. If there was others why not have another drawing of it?

I had a old advertisement of Pike that stated there was only one Washita mine and if it was not a Pike it was not a Washita. Appparently others were trying to sell soft arks and try and label them as washitas.

Kind of like Eshers and Thuris but a littld different becsuse they stated only one washita mine.

If you look hard enough you should be able to find it.

I have no horses in the race just trying to to help new guys out with things I have seen. Its out there you just have to dig it out.

Indeed! But Griswold has a number of Washita quarries existing in 1890, and claims Sutton's #6 was regarded as the best, Sutton's #1 being a Washita quarry also, and obviously #7 which later appeared in the Pike bumf.

Some other Sutton quarries weren't Washita quarries according to Griswold. And from memory there's a part where he says that although there's no geological reason that the Washita and Arkansas stones shouldn't exist in layers next to each other, there wasn't a quarry in which they did / were mined together.
 
I have seen that many years ago. Pike purchased many quarries. If you read it cafully it does not say they are all washita quarries. Pike and others also sold hard and soft, each mine produced different quality product. Not one had all the grades.

They keep showing just one washita mine drawing. If there was others why not have another drawing of it?

I had a old advertisement of Pike that stated there was only one Washita mine and if it was not a Pike it was not a Washita. Appparently others were trying to sell soft arks and try and label them as washitas.

Kind of like Eshers and Thuris but a littld different becsuse they stated only one washita mine.

If you look hard enough you should be able to find it.

I have no horses in the race just trying to to help new guys out with things I have seen. Its out there you just have to dig it out.
Supposedly the TVA flooded the original mine when it was founded and everything afterwards has been pulled a different mine allegedly. If this is true all those lily whites from the 50s and list 40s are from a different mine than the original pike mine. I have a hard time believing that of all the quarries in arkansas that that hole was the only one with that mineral formation and that the guys at norton couldnt differentiate between different types and even with their crazy strict quality control they said "*** it" and just boxes up any old rock. Then to top it off scammed a bunch of woodworkers that got them to do a limited run of the stone again. So they'd be able to secure a little more material again after decades. This seems far fetched from the company that's been the standard in quality for a century or better. I've got a colorful stone from an old cabelas kit that is without doubt a soft ark passed off as a Washita but all the other one are completely different stone. Whatever they are, they eat steel fast and finish fine, and THAT is what's important to me and I'd be over the moon with a petrified dinosaur turd of it could do the same!
 
If you read it well they say abandoned mine. If by 1890 they had exhausted them how could they sell any more.

Norton eventually exhausted the mine to(not worth the effort) why would they not lookk for another mine if they could. They had the money. It was their number one seller. It seems from what I gathered that they could not find that quality of Ark anymore(speaking of Norton).

I have not seen any example of a Sutton stone, have you?

If I recall in that 1890 survey 1,200,000 tons of material was quarried 1,060,000 was washita and 140,000 was all the other grades combined. What would that suggest. They ran out of that material first. Leaving just one mine by the time Norton purchased it in 1932.
 
If you read it well they say abandoned mine. If by 1890 they had exhausted them how could they sell any more.

Norton eventually exhausted the mine to(not worth the effort) why would they not lookk for another mine if they could. They had the money. It was their number one seller. It seems from what I gathered that they could not find that quality of Ark anymore(speaking of Norton).

I have not seen any example of a Sutton stone, have you?

If I recall in that 1890 survey 1,200,000 tons of material was quarried 1,060,000 was washita and 140,000 was all the other grades combined. What would that suggest. They ran out of that material first. Leaving just one mine by the time Norton purchased it in 1932.
One other aspect of Ouachita also comes from Griswold:

1631721628700.png
 
Supposedly the TVA flooded the original mine when it was founded and everything afterwards has been pulled a different mine allegedly. If this is true all those lily whites from the 50s and list 40s are from a different mine than the original pike mine. I have a hard time believing that of all the quarries in arkansas that that hole was the only one with that mineral formation and that the guys at norton couldnt differentiate between different types and even with their crazy strict quality control they said "*** it" and just boxes up any old rock. Then to top it off scammed a bunch of woodworkers that got them to do a limited run of the stone again. So they'd be able to secure a little more material again after decades. This seems far fetched from the company that's been the standard in quality for a century or better. I've got a colorful stone from an old cabelas kit that is without doubt a soft ark passed off as a Washita but all the other one are completely different stone. Whatever they are, they eat steel fast and finish fine, and THAT is what's important to me and I'd be over the moon with a petrified dinosaur turd of it could do the same!
Relax bro! You seem to be getting your feathers all ruffled up. Take a chill pill and a deep breath.

If Pike and later Norton marketed Washita stones then that is theirs right. Just like Escher stones are only Eschers if they got the label.

If you had a similar stone you could call it a Oachita but not a Washita.
 
One other aspect of Ouachita also comes from Griswold:

View attachment 1328635
Yup! The main difference between soft and washita is porosity. Meaning if they are of the same hardness the hole means there is less materisl than a solid soft one enableing you to cut through it a lot faster.

The porosity is what makes Washita stones cut so well. They termed it the cheese grader effect. They cut like traditional arks but with additional preasure you get the cheese grader effect and they cut way faster.
 
If you read it well they say abandoned mine. If by 1890 they had exhausted them how could they sell any more.

Norton eventually exhausted the mine to(not worth the effort) why would they not lookk for another mine if they could. They had the money. It was their number one seller. It seems from what I gathered that they could not find that quality of Ark anymore(speaking of Norton).

I have not seen any example of a Sutton stone, have you?

If I recall in that 1890 survey 1,200,000 tons of material was quarried 1,060,000 was washita and 140,000 was all the other grades combined. What would that suggest. They ran out of that material first. Leaving just one mine by the time Norton purchased it in 1932.
I see what you mean - the grammar in that section isn't entirely clear. But I think the 'abandoned quarry on Quarry Mountain formerly worked by Whittington' is the beginning of a new sentence and refers to a different quarry. With the previous sentence talking about Sutton 1 and 6.

And no, as you say there were no Sutton branded Ouachita - it's clear earlier that the Sutton quarries at the time were the source for both Pike and George Chase, who processed the raw material. (As far as I understood it anyway!).
 
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Relax bro! You seem to be getting your feathers all ruffled up. Take a chill pill and a deep breath.

If Pike and later Norton marketed Washita stones then that is theirs right. Just like Escher stones are only Eschers if they got the label.

If you had a similar stone you could call it a Oachita but not a Washita.
No ruffled feathers here friend. I've just been calling them what they're labeled, except the 3 unlabeled ones I have I think they are norton stones except 1 because I think it's much older. All of them are finer 2 are hard and dense and the other is soft and light. Here's a couple of the ones labeled.


20210910_200729.jpg 20210830_165547.jpg
 
No ruffled feathers here friend. I've just been calling them what they're labeled, except the 3 unlabeled ones I have I think they are norton stones except 1 because I think it's much older. All of them are finer 2 are hard and dense and the other is soft and light. Here's a couple of the ones labeled.


View attachment 1328667 View attachment 1328668
Cool!

It is stones like that that throw people off. They come after Norton was not selling anymore and just trying to capitalize on the Washita name.
Dan 's did the same but he was honest enough to say they were just fast cutting soft Arks. Get a hold of him and ask for yourself.

Does not mean they are from the Washita mine.

Just passing along what I have learned from other more knowledgeable people. They all pretty much come to the same conclusion and they do not know eachother. Most are pre internet.

Good coversation Empire!
 
Supposedly the TVA flooded the original mine when it was founded and everything afterwards has been pulled a different mine allegedly.
Can't say that is not true, but in googling around I find no reference to Tennessee Valley Authority operating in Arkansas. That mountain range is in TN too I think, so I really don't know if this happened or not. But if the Pike mines were in AR and TVA never operated there then this probably didn't happen. Since they made a run in 2006 or so, someone must have been able to access something? Probably without divers?

I think Keith @Gamma has actually communicated with these folks and they explained the whole situation. Maybe he can share some fact over the conjecture?

@cotedupy - it would be interesting if you can look up where smith's stones are mined and confirm different location than Pike.
 
Cool!

It is stones like that that throw people off. They come after Norton was not selling anymore and just trying to capitalize on the Washita name.
Dan 's did the same but he was honest enough to say they were just fast cutting soft Arks. Get a hold of him and ask for yourself.

Does not mean they are from the Washita mine.

Just passing along what I have learned from other more knowledgeable people. They all pretty much come to the same conclusion and they do not know eachother. Most are pre internet.

Good coversation Empire!
Agreed! Here's a couple more. Yeah I have no illusion about any of these stones being from the Norton mine but I call them what they are labeled to avoid confusion. I love regular soft arks to when they are quality stones. The little smith's and arkansas oilstone don't even feel like normal novaculite but the bigger smith's I can absolutly it could be called a fast cutting soft ark though it's the density of a hard ark like my big unlabeled ones, but it cuts the same as they do and it's fast.

20210915_132547.jpg 20210915_132552.jpg 20210914_102844.jpg

This one I got yesterday its in the dip now. It looks like my big white one but way softer. I think it was an 8" or 10" stone that got broken. It's a great size for work. I'm not certain it's a norton Washita(probably #1 or wwd if I had to guess) but it seems like it'll be a nice stone.

20210915_001700.jpg 20210915_001636.jpg 20210915_001642.jpg 20210915_001630.jpg
 
Can't say that is not true, but in googling around I find no reference to Tennessee Valley Authority operating in Arkansas. That mountain range is in TN too I think, so I really don't know if this happened or not. But if the Pike mines were in AR and TVA never operated there then this probably didn't happen. Since they made a run in 2006 or so, someone must have been able to access something? Probably without divers?

I think Keith @Gamma has actually communicated with these folks and they explained the whole situation. Maybe he can share some fact over the conjecture?

@cotedupy - it would be interesting if you can look up where smith's stones are mined and confirm different location than Pike.
If it was Lake Ouachita, as @timwcic said upthread, it would have been the Army Corps of Engineers, not the TVA.
 
Can't say that is not true, but in googling around I find no reference to Tennessee Valley Authority operating in Arkansas. That mountain range is in TN too I think, so I really don't know if this happened or not. But if the Pike mines were in AR and TVA never operated there then this probably didn't happen. Since they made a run in 2006 or so, someone must have been able to access something? Probably without divers?

I think Keith @Gamma has actually communicated with these folks and they explained the whole situation. Maybe he can share some fact over the conjecture?

@cotedupy - it would be interesting if you can look up where smith's stones are mined and confirm different location than Pike.
I only know what's posted on the razor and woodworking forums about pike/norton, the story of the tva came from here. I had pretty much only ever used smith's arks and hand cut ones around from my great grandfather that he had laying on the porch for tools and knives. I have no idea where any of these quarries are but I would love to know, especially if that smith's "washita" mine is still around. I'm in north Texas so I'm at the foot hills and start of the plains and piney woods past them and I find "arkansas novaculite" stones on the ground around all over 0my property. If that smith's mine is still around I'd like to take a field trip and get a big 20 pound bout of it! A big slab would be awesome for machetes and axes! I sharpen tools a dozen times a day at least and having more rocks that cut fast and fine is always a win.
 
If it was Lake Ouachita, as @timwcic said upthread, it would have been the Army Corps of Engineers, not the TVA.
That makes sense, maybe I should research more instead of parroting what I read(not saying anyone is wrong just I should take more effort in independently verifying information). Though a lot of the info is word of mouth and anecdotal so that throw a wrench in it some.
 
Remmel Dam completed in 1924. Carpenter Dam completed in 1931. Blakely Mountain Dan completed in 1953. TVA not involved in any aspect of those dams. All three were constructed by Arkansas Power and Light

 
I have no idea where any of these quarries are but I would love to know, especially if that smith's "washita" mine is still around.
I don’t have any addresses of GPS to give you, but there are indeed multiple strip pits abandoned and just sitting and a couple pretty accessible. I haven’t been to one since the 90s and they try to not get too public about them to keep rock hounds out. But even some in state parks if I recall. They tend to just be open cuts really and look like a little stream cut gorge. The stones in nature might not be what you expect (maybe they are?). I wouldn’t expect to find any super awesome stones but basic cutting stones are around.
 
Remmel Dam completed in 1924. Carpenter Dam completed in 1931. Blakely Mountain Dan completed in 1953. TVA not involved in any aspect of those dams. All three were constructed by Arkansas Power and Light
OK, there we go. Facts have to link up and the internet is notorious for mid-info getting re-posted by the innocent and unknowing. But that above would be more possible at least.
 
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