Wade&Butcher with curvy tip

[ferroburak]

Hi,
Should the curvy area near the tip be avoided while honing/shaving? Would this razor make a good shaver?

 

[professorchaos]

That is from toe heavy hone wear. No need to avoid it, just be sure to get it sharp while honing the razor.

 

[ferroburak]

This one seems more tricky:

 

[BillEllis]

That is from toe heavy hone wear. No need to avoid it, just be sure to get it sharp while honing the razor.

+2

The razor was improperly honed over a period of a long time. It looks like this one may have been the result of just too much pressure being applied at the tip of the razor. The other way it happens is when the heel of the blade is tilted up off of the hone. Excess wear at the tip of a blade often happens when the person using the hone has had difficulty getting the front part of the blade to shave comfortably. Then they try to compensate for it by using more presser on the troublesome area.

Honing tip: Using pressure has validity at times but not under normal circumstances, so use a little less pressure than it takes to spread soft butter on a piece of bread. For any razor with an upward sweep at the tip, learn to "tilt" the blade upward from the heel while barely touching the spine rather than using pressure or rotating the cutting edge more into the stone. When using this process, a layer of electrical tape over the spine will prevent more damage to the edge of the spine.

 

[BillEllis]

This one seems more tricky:

That one needs to have the edge straightened first...

 

[Aussieshaver]

+2

The razor was improperly honed over a period of a long time. It looks like this one may have been the result of just too much pressure being applied at the tip of the razor. The other way it happens is when the heel of the blade is tilted up off of the hone. Excess wear at the tip of a blade often happens when the person using the hone has had difficulty getting the front part of the blade to shave comfortably. Then they try to compensate for it by using more presser on the troublesome area.

Honing tip: Using pressure has validity at times but not under normal circumstances, so use a little less pressure than it takes to spread soft butter on a piece of bread. For any razor with an upward sweep at the tip, learn to "tilt" the blade upward from the heel while barely touching the spine rather than using pressure or rotating the cutting edge more into the stone. When using this process, a layer of electrical tape over the spine will prevent more damage to the edge of the spine.

Thanks for the tip Bill.

Would a proper X stroke by the original user have fixed the problem? It would seem to me (with my limited experience) that if the hone was making contact with the razor evenly across the entire stroke that this would add much more uniformity to the final edge???

 

[SliceOfLife]

No. That razor started with a smile. A flat, no pressure x stroke will not give you a shave ready old english smiler. It will give you a waving frown (short toe, tall transition, frown, tall transition, short heel). Which is probably the worst possible edge setup. These razors need to be honed to maintain the curve (or have it removed completely, then honed straight, giving you wavy spine wear and losing a LOT of blade depth).

This razor is a case where the motions used to hone it were correct, but the honer rushed it and isolated the toe TOO much (likely by rolling completely off the stone, isolating the very tip of the toe rather than just a slight roll to isolate the end 1/4" or so... by doing this you increase the rate of wear by many, many, many (dozens maybe hundreds of) times, since the force holding the razor to the hone is exerted entirely on a nearly infinitely small length of edge, rather than a more measurable length.


But in all honesty, it really isn't that bad. Some old W&B choppers started out with pretty wicked smiles. If I were "fixing" that razor, I'd probably just hone it up*, or maybe (if I was really concerned with looks) grind the heel in a little to make the smile more even. Then if you really were anal, you could sand out the spine wear and just pretend it started as a more extreme smiler.


*Maybe I'll add pics of my 1&1/8" W&B chopper with a 6/8" "Cleaver Toe" later.

 

[BillEllis]

@SliceOfLife: Please understand that what I say here is not directed at you, personally. I do not take issue with you, but I do take issue with the information you provided - as I understood it, anyway.


Let's start with the pic so everybody doesn't have to scroll to the top.

While there is no doubt that this is a smiling razor, it's not supposed to look the the mug of Batman's enemy, the Joker. Therefore, if this razor was honed with the "correct motions" as you stated... it wouldn't look like this. For the most part, the "sway" of the spine would match the cutting edge in a concentric fashion.

The person who had this razor did not - repeat - did not, know how to hone a razor. It is obvious that he was having difficulty getting the tip of the razor sharp and/or did not know how to address the slight curvature at the front of the blade.

The way these razors were honed was with a scything motion - a slight rotation that follows the curvature of the blade. Cutting edge facing left rotates counter clockwise. Cutting edge facing right rotates clockwise. This only hold true to the "slight" smiles. Picture a race car sliding into a turn as being the blade on a stone.

Once the curvature becomes as pronounced as this one, in addition to the rotation, the heel needs to be lifted off of the stone in proportion to the curve. It's an acquired skill that needs to be practiced. As little pressure as possible should be made on the spine when lifting the heel to do this. I have gotten to where I don't let the blade touch the spine at all when I start the lift.

I was a mite baffled by the talk of tall trasitions, short toes and heels, and such, but I do know that razors don't "roll". That's what skateboards do. I picture "rolling" down a hill and adapting that concept to a razor and it just doesn't compute with me. Maybe a diagram would help.

And one last thing... the razor is that bad. Using razors like this as a new guy will only develop bad habits for keeping the "good" razors dialed in. An experienced razor guy is a different story, but an experienced razor guy would probably pass on a razor like this. There was a reason it was so cheap, and I think you may just have discovered why.

 

[ferroburak]

@SliceOfLife: Please understand that what I say here is not directed at you, personally. I do not take issue with you, but I do take issue with the information you provided - as I understood it, anyway.


Let's start with the pic so everybody doesn't have to scroll to the top.

While there is no doubt that this is a smiling razor, it's not supposed to look the the mug of Batman's enemy, the Joker. Therefore, if this razor was honed with the "correct motions" as you stated... it wouldn't look like this. For the most part, the "sway" of the spine would match the cutting edge in a concentric fashion.

The person who had this razor did not - repeat - did not, know how to hone a razor. It is obvious that he was having difficulty getting the tip of the razor sharp and/or did not know how to address the slight curvature at the front of the blade.

The way these razors were honed was with a scything motion - a slight rotation that follows the curvature of the blade. Cutting edge facing left rotates counter clockwise. Cutting edge facing right rotates clockwise. This only hold true to the "slight" smiles. Picture a race car sliding into a turn as being the blade on a stone.

Once the curvature becomes as pronounced as this one, in addition to the rotation, the heel needs to be lifted off of the stone in proportion to the curve. It's an acquired skill that needs to be practiced. As little pressure as possible should be made on the spine when lifting the heel to do this. I have gotten to where I don't let the blade touch the spine at all when I start the lift.

I was a mite baffled by the talk of tall trasitions, short toes and heels, and such, but I do know that razors don't "roll". That's what skateboards do. I picture "rolling" down a hill and adapting that concept to a razor and it just doesn't compute with me. Maybe a diagram would help.

And one last thing... the razor is that bad. Using razors like this as a new guy will only develop bad habits for keeping the "good" razors dialed in. An experienced razor guy is a different story, but an experienced razor guy would probably pass on a razor like this. There was a reason it was so cheap, and I think you may just have discovered why.

Is the lesson to learn from the first razor not honing in circular paths on a small radius of curvature?

Would it be good idea to avoid honing the wicked smile area at all for a start? I should rather have avoided the razor maybe but I'm a victim of RAD

 

[BillEllis]

Is the lesson to learn from the first razor not honing in circular paths on a small radius of curvature?

Would it be good idea to avoid honing the wicked smile area at all for a start? I should rather have avoided the razor maybe but I'm a victim of RAD

You've got the razor now, so, of course you need to learn how to hone it.

I gave the explanation on how to hone this style blade and don't know of a clearer method to make it more understandable for you. Sorry.

The way these razors were honed was with a scything motion - a slight rotation that follows the curvature of the blade. Cutting edge facing left rotates counter clockwise. Cutting edge facing right rotates clockwise. This only hold true to the "slight" smiles. Picture a race car sliding into a turn as being the blade on a stone.

*I do not know for sure what you mean by a circular path.

 

[ferroburak]

You've got the razor now, so, of course you need to learn how to hone it.

I gave the explanation on how to hone this style blade and don't know of a clearer method to make it more understandable for you. Sorry.



*I do not know for sure what you mean by a circular path.

Hi,

I brought one of my "normal edge" straights to a knife sharpener today and watched while he was honing. The razor was making both translational(towards the stone's corner) and a rotational motion (rotation angle per stroke seemed high) Maybe he wasn't doing it the right way I don't know but it has sharpened in a few minutes.

Having this visual experience and your advice I'm guessing high rotation angle per stroke is responsible for the W&B's wicked smile..

Would getting a poor quality steel straight razor, giving it a nasty smile and practising your honing advice first on it help?

Thanks for your help.

 

[BillEllis]

Would getting a poor quality steel straight razor, giving it a nasty smile and practising your honing advice first on it help?

Probably not. Practice on the one you have because you are not going to be able to create much more damage than what is already there.

I didn't quite follow your explanation with the knife sharpener guy. Regardless, your best bet is to read eveything in the honing section of this forum. Once you are done with that, you will have a good grasp on just about every angle of the razor sharpening process.