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Vulfix vs Simpsons

Chandu

I Waxed The Badger.
It seems that so called 'gel' tips have been around in one form or another for a decade or so. There are some interesting posts in the thread below suggesting they are an intentional property of many brushes, including Paladin, and have been for several years. The use of heat and bleaching is confirmed as I read it unless I misunderstand. Gel tips are seemingly an accepted feature and even desirable by some.

That's kind of what I was able to find by digging too. These days most hair that is not silvertip and probably even some of that is lightened or bleached. (Silvertip hair being finer is easy to damage, so that is why the industry tends to leave it alone.) The gel feeling / behavior was a by product of the process. A process in my opinion exists almost entirely to make less good hair a bit softer and more saleable or worth more on the market.

Personally, I'm not on board with that. The alternatives to my way of thinking are to avoid them when possible. Silvertip is probably a good bet minimize your chances, or buy from someone that says they don't used gelled hair. It's easy to tell if that is the truth once you wet the brush. If they bottom two thirds or more of the hair feels normal, but the tip feels slick or coated when wet, you have one that was gelled. Then of course there is the clumping. Shake the brush out and give it a few light strokes on a dry towel, if gelled you will see spiky clumped tips. If not gelled you will see individual hairs.

Many may like gelled. I don't. I won't knowingly pay for it. To me, it's a lesser grade of hair in every way.

I should add that many brush makers are probably behind the 8 ball here. They don't have the clout to demand hair that this hasn't been processed in this way, and there may not be enough unmolested hair to go around.
 
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I have never experienced Rooney Finest having gel tips, but I never would cross out the possibility of it. Badger varies so much being a natural product I seem to remember asking John aka churchilllafemme and he said he had some that exhibited gel tips, but only slightly. It wasn't here that I asked. I do remember that. Can't find it with any of my searches though atm.
 
Yup, same here!

Brush tips are either bleached to make them gel-tipped or acid dipped to make the tips softer and lighter in colour.

The acid dipped are still kind of OK, not as slimey feeling as the gel tipped but natural is still the best for me!

Simpson and Semogue make the best natural badger knots in my experience.

It's an unfortunate trend as nearly all artisan brush makers are using SHD gel tipped knots!!


Any idea what type of acid is used for this process?
 
Ahh, thanks though. Figured i would of tried it on a cheapo pure i have that doesnt get used at all due to scratch.

Only acids i have handy are cleaning vinegar and oxalic acid (barkeepers friend).
 

Chandu

I Waxed The Badger.
Ahh, thanks though. Figured i would of tried it on a cheapo pure i have that doesnt get used at all due to scratch.

Only acids i have handy are cleaning vinegar and oxalic acid (barkeepers friend).
It's some hair treatment product.

My advice, leave it alone. Natural is better. I won't knowingly by a gelled brush.
 
Thanks, I've seen that video and also don't care for heavily gelled brushes. Too much and it feels slimy to me. I was under impression that bleach treatment and acid treatment resulted in different outcomes. I figured if an acid treatment doesnt have the same level of effect, i would try it. Otherwise, the brush in question will never get used. Plus, Im ok with enhancements of any type if i get the desired outcome.

I bought some knots that arent gelled at all, but I suspect were treated in some way, due to super white tips. I just used one last night and thought id be hard pressed if i could tell the difference in a blind test bw the treated knot and a simspon super that I have. At a fraction of the cost too.

I may experiment a little and see what happens. Worse case, it ends up a cleaning brush.
 

ChiefBroom

No tattoo mistakes!
Simpson - better quality hair, more dense knot, greater weight of hair in similar sized knot, hand tied knot, hand turned handle....
From what I have had the handles have all been hand turned, but I’m sure some of the much cheaper handles aren’t to save on costs. Knots are hand tied on anything I’ve tried and are quality like Simpson....

See Material of Simpsons brushes - https://www.badgerandblade.com/forum/threads/material-of-simpsons-brushes.579390/#post-10502110, which includes and excerpt from a July 2012 interview in which Mark Watterson stated with specific reference to Simpsons offerings: The brush handles are in the main cut from Polyester plastic rod, machine turned on CNC lathes.

So, not hand-turned at that time or, presumably, since then.

With regard to knots, the common usage of hand tied as it has evolved over the past couple of years often comes across to me as implying that the bulk of badger-hair knots (e.g., those imported from China) are not hand tied. There are certainly difference methods of producing hand-made knots, and quality varies greatly, but I'm not aware of anyone producing badger-hair knots other than by hand. Has anyone here actually seen or heard of knots being formed and tied by a machine?
 
I have never had a Simpson's but I have owned a Vulfix Super Badger for many years. As model #'s change, I'm not sure if what I have is the current 2235S but this looks exactly like what I have...


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Anyway, I do not like it as much as my Omega Silvertips as they are definately a higher grade of badger. I bought this brush after my first brush, (a Muhle ST which I still have and is fantastic) but I didn't realize the "Super Badger" was NOT the highest grade of ST like my Muhle and my Omega's. That being said, it IS a very good brush and has stood the test of time. It is just a little behind the top o' the line ST's in softness and is a little too floppy.

I still use it but NOT as often as the others I have named.
 
See Material of Simpsons brushes - https://www.badgerandblade.com/forum/threads/material-of-simpsons-brushes.579390/#post-10502110, which includes and excerpt from a July 2012 interview in which Mark Watterson stated with specific reference to Simpsons offerings: The brush handles are in the main cut from Polyester plastic rod, machine turned on CNC lathes.

So, not hand-turned at that time or, presumably, since then.

With regard to knots, the common usage of hand tied as it has evolved over the past couple of years often comes across to me as implying that the bulk of badger-hair knots (e.g., those imported from China) are not hand tied. There are certainly difference methods of producing hand-made knots, and quality varies greatly, but I'm not aware of anyone producing badger-hair knots other than by hand. Has anyone here actually seen or heard of knots being formed and tied by a machine?

This is interesting - I am not surprised that the handles that Simpson produces are machine made and not hand turned on a lathe. I would think that there is simply no advantage to producing the handles manually vs. large scale precision CNC manufacturing.

For the knots on the other hand, it may be advantageous to hand tie them individually to account for variations in the natural hair. Adjusting the loft and shape of the knot (bulb vs. fan vs. hybrid) to maximize the characteristics of the brush with a particular batch of hair is something that an experienced brush maker could dial in that may be difficult or impossible to replicate on a machine. I know from watching some videos of the Simpson manufacturing process that the knots are tied and formed by hand and seemingly tested for the desired characteristics before being set in the brush.

I have no knowledge of how other manufacturers produce brush knots, but I can chime in to say that every other brush I own other than Simpson has a very uniform appearance that indicates a controlled and mechanized manufacturing process. My Chubby 2 is slightly lopsided across the knot lending to the appearance of hand tying, whereas my Semogue badgers appear very uniform across the top of the knot. I would speculate that any manufacturer doing any part of the process by hand would advertise as such and the vast majority of mass produced brushes today are assembled primarily by means of machine.
 

ChiefBroom

No tattoo mistakes!
For the knots on the other hand, it may be advantageous to hand tie them individually to account for variations in the natural hair. Adjusting the loft and shape of the knot (bulb vs. fan vs. hybrid) to maximize the characteristics of the brush with a particular batch of hair is something that an experienced brush maker could dial in that may be difficult or impossible to replicate on a machine. I know from watching some videos of the Simpson manufacturing process that the knots are tied and formed by hand and seemingly tested for the desired characteristics before being set in the brush.

I have no knowledge of how other manufacturers produce brush knots, but I can chime in to say that every other brush I own other than Simpson has a very uniform appearance that indicates a controlled and mechanized manufacturing process. My Chubby 2 is slightly lopsided across the knot lending to the appearance of hand tying, whereas my Semogue badgers appear very uniform across the top of the knot. I would speculate that any manufacturer doing any part of the process by hand would advertise as such and the vast majority of mass produced brushes today are assembled primarily by means of machine.

This might be widely believed, especially given (and to some extent due to) the frequently misleading usage of hand-tied, but it's just not true.

We've produced close to 5,000 brushes over the past 6 1/2 years. I am supremely confident that every knot was made by hand.

We started making brushes in collaboration with Lee Sabini in mid-2014 and moved to independently sourcing and setting knots after mid-2015. In the beginning, many of the knots we obtained from China had conformance issues. We still have a large number of those. I remember sorting knots on our pool table into groups that shared common issues (e.g. leaning, asymmetrical, divots, ragged edges). My speculation was that for the most part the knots in each group were made by a different worker whose output repetitively exemplified the same imperfection.

I exchanged countless emails with suppliers that included dozens of comparative photos pointing out issues. In October 2016 a principal of our main supplier came to visit us in Overland Park, KS and spent two days going over knots. I had set out close to 50 examples (some good, some bad), each placed on a separate index card with corresponding notes. Some knots were cut in half. Our visitor took several, densely filled pages of hand-written notes in Chinese. After that visit quality dramatically improved, in significant part due to the fact we obtained a commitment (specified in writing in each and every order) that all knots would be made by a specifically named worker whose skill matched our requirements. I know her name; I've watched her work in real-time via WeChat. Her father is the producer. She has been making knots for about 15 years. Her mother also made knots.
 
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EclipseRedRing

I smell like a Christmas pudding
I agree that every knot is likely tied by hand so many if not all brush makers could make that claim. For me the important difference with Simpson is that those knots are tied in the Simpson factory by skilled craftsmen and women who are employed directly by Simpson and who receive a fair wage and employment benefits. The fact that this is in my own country is an additional positive for me. That said, I do not disagree with the points raised about 'hand tied' and 'hand turned'.
 
This might be widely believed, especially given (and to some extend due to) the frequently misleading usage of hand-tied, but it's just not true.

We've produced close to 5,000 brushes over the past 6 1/2 years. I am supremely confident that every knot was made by hand.

We started making brushes in collaboration with Lee Sabini in mid-2014 and moved to independently sourcing and setting knots after mid-2015. In the beginning, many of the knots we obtained from China had conformance issues. We still have a large number of those. I remember sorting knots on our pool table into group that shared common issues (e.g. leaning, asymmetrical, divots, ragged edges). My speculation was that for the most part the knots in each group were made by a different worker whose output repetitively exemplified the same imperfection.

I exchanged countless emails with suppliers that included dozens of comparative photos pointing out issues. In October 2016 a principal of our main supplier came to visit us in Overland Park, KS and spent two days going over knots. I had set out close to 50 examples (some good, some bad), each placed on a separate index card with corresponding notes. Some knots were cut in half. Our visitor took several, densely filled pages of hand-written notes in Chinese. After that visit quality dramatically improved, in significant part due to the fact we obtained a commitment (specified in writing in each and every order) that all knots would be made by a specifically named worker whose skill matched our requirements. I know her name; I've watched her work in real-time via WeChat. Her father is the producer. She has been making knots for about 15 years. Here mother also made knots.

Thank you for your input and clarification, this is an area in which you are clearly more knowledgeable than myself and many others. To pose a question - to what extent are knots produced by machine, if at all? To make less of broad subject matter perhaps we can confine the scope of conversation to badger knots, although I would be curious about boar and VERY surprised to hear that synthetic knots are also produced primarily by hand. I hope this does not derail the topic of this thread too much but I believe insight into how quality brush knots are produced across various manufacturers may be relevant to how brushes perform.
 

ChiefBroom

No tattoo mistakes!
I agree that every knot is likely tied by hand so many if not all brush makers could make that claim. For me the important difference with Simpson is that those knots are tied in the Simpson factory by skilled craftsmen and women who are employed directly by Simpson and who receive a fair wage and employment benefits. The fact that this is in my own country is an additional positive for me. That said, I do not disagree with the points raised about 'hand tied' and 'hand turned'.

FWIW, I have great respect for the Simpson/Simpsons brand and brushes. I own well over a dozen and have never parted with one. A few years ago we collaborated with Mark Watterson to produce three brushes for the Sue Moore Auction (see Collaboration with Simpsons in support of the Sue Moore fundraiser - https://www.badgerandblade.com/forum/threads/collaboration-with-simpsons-in-support-of-the-sue-moore-fundraiser.551495/).

To pose a question - to what extent are knots produced by machine, if at all? To make less of broad subject matter perhaps we can confine the scope of conversation to badger knots, although I would be curious about boar and VERY surprised to hear that synthetic knots are also produced primarily by hand. I hope this does not derail the topic of this thread too much but I believe insight into how quality brush knots are produced across various manufacturers may be relevant to how brushes perform.

I know next to nothing about how boar knots are made. If I were interested, I'd ask someone whom I trusted to know based on direct experience or access to reliable information. Speculation and BS on the boards and in social media is rampant. And it often, particularly after frequent repetition, becomes the basis for widespread and deeply entrenched belief that can be virtually impossible to correct. I don't mean to accuse or lecture, but I think it's a big problem. That's not a shot at you, or anyone in particular.

I have neither broad nor deep experience/knowledge with regard synthetic knots. But my confident belief (supported by a trusted relationship and repeated assurances) is that the synthetic knots we have purchased (about 200) were all formed, tied, and glued by hand in substantially the same way as the badger knots we use.

Speaking broadly, I don't have any knowledge of badger-hair knots that were or are being made other than by hand. That isn't to say it hasn't happened.

We've tried our hands at tying knots. It's not easy! We continue to source knots from China because, in my opinion, they are better than the knots we could make ourselves without months (or years) of practice and a lot of wasted hair. I cannot imagine a machine making a knot that we would choose to set in one of our handles.

We're committed to making the best shaving brushes we can make. I use CNC lathes (which, BTW, are small, benchtop machines that are capable of very high precision but which were not made for production use) because my objective from the outset was to turn handles on a par with those Frank McInroy produced for Lee Sabini in the glory, made in England, days of Rooney and M&F. There's not a Chinese-made machine in my shop. My lathes were manufactured in Austria and England (over 25-40 years ago). Our laser engraver was made in Austria. To the extent possible, I avoid use of Chinese-made tools. The inserts I use are custom-made for us in the US. Those choices don't reflect any particular bias other than related to quality. We use Chinese knots because - based on the relationships I've invested a great deal of time, effort, and exasperation (not to mention brain damage) in developing - I believe they are the best knots we can get to set in our handles. But we pay premium prices for that in comparison to standard offerings.
 
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I have a vulfix that's cabinet jewelry now. It's so floppy, the hair's shape collapses under the weight of too much soap and water.

My cabinet jewelry piece is an "artificial". I don't even remember which manufacturer it was/is, but it has no backbone although very soft. Also it is s**t brown when it was advertized as "cinnamon" or something more elegant.

Oh well, I can't compalin as all my others turned out awesome or at least very good.
 
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