Vocabulary rant

[TexLaw]

Since decimate comes from the Latin decimatio, and decim is Latin for ten, the Romans likely understood it in the sense of military unit forced to kill one in ten of their own.

Yes, "decimatio" is the removal of one tenth, and the root of "decimate" and "decimation." I need to be a bit picky, though. "Decem" is Latin for ten (think "December"), and "decimus/a/um" is Latin for "tenth" (think "decimal" or even "decimate"). I imagine it all worked out in some way beyond what I recall from those three years of Latin I completed thirty years ago!

 

[Junker Jörg]

Since decimate comes from the Latin decimatio, and decim is Latin for ten, the Romans likely understood it in the sense of military unit forced to kill one in ten of their own.

I know. When I was corrected on my insistence on a narrow use of "decimate," I was introduced to the concept of etymological fallacy -- the mistaken insistence that a word's current use must not stray far from its original meaning. In fact, the Romans understood "sinister" to mean left handed, "century" (actually centuria) to denote a unit of 100 soldiers, and "forum" to identify the commercial and cultural center of a city. We no longer use those words in ways that reflect the meanings of their root words.

("Decimation" actually shows up as an example of etymological fallacy in Wikipedia:
"An example of a word which has greatly changed its meaning is decimation, which originally referred to reduction by a tenth, but now usually means a drastic reduction or complete destruction. Insisting that only the original meaning is "true" constitutes an etymological fallacy." Etymological fallacy - Wikipedia

 

[The Knize]

I have read up on "decimate" and etymological fallacy. I guess I would have said that hearing decimate used as a substitute for destroy did rub me the wrong way, and I did think it came from the Roman kill every tenth man thing. But to me decimate still means reduce or damage significantly, not to completely destroy. If it simply meant the latter, it would be just another word for something we already have words for without even any additional nuance, which seems annoying to me. I have no idea whether my formulation of this is supported by scholars.

 

[martym]

Boy!
This is way above my learning!!!
Have enjoyed this thread thoroughly.
Thanks y’all!!!

 

[Junker Jörg]

... But to me decimate still means reduce or damage significantly, not to completely destroy. If it simply meant the latter, it would be just another word for something we already have words for without even any additional nuance, which seems annoying to me. I have no idea whether my formulation of this is supported by scholars.

I'm all for your precise use of decimate, as are some dictionaries which list it as the primary meaning. For what it's worth, here's one scholar who supports your formulation, with a degree of precision that makes my head spin:
World Wide Words: Decimate

 

[Raissermesser]

I know. When I was corrected on my insistence on a narrow use of "decimate," I was introduced to the concept of etymological fallacy -- the mistaken insistence that a word's current use must not stray far from its original meaning. In fact, the Romans understood "sinister" to mean left handed, "century" (actually centuria) to denote a unit of 100 soldiers, and "forum" to identify the commercial and cultural center of a city. We no longer use those words in ways that reflect the meanings of their root words.

("Decimation" actually shows up as an example of etymological fallacy in Wikipedia:
"An example of a word which has greatly changed its meaning is decimation, which originally referred to reduction by a tenth, but now usually means a drastic reduction or complete destruction. Insisting that only the original meaning is "true" constitutes an etymological fallacy." Etymological fallacy - Wikipedia

Yes, word meanings shift. The question, though, was how speakers of Latin viewed it back in the day.

 

[Raissermesser]

I have read up on "decimate" and etymological fallacy. I guess I would have said that hearing decimate used as a substitute for destroy did rub me the wrong way, and I did think it came from the Roman kill every tenth man thing. But to me decimate still means reduce or damage significantly, not to completely destroy. If it simply meant the latter, it would be just another word for something we already have words for without even any additional nuance, which seems annoying to me. I have no idea whether my formulation of this is supported by scholars.

The vernacular nuance is the idea of "nearly destroyed in number." Obliterate and annihilate carry the nuance of totality. If we read "The tornado decimated homes throughout the town," it's likely in the sense that the town was almost destroyed rather than one in ten. But in that sense, it's a better pick that obliterate.

 

[Raissermesser]

Nasty thought:

Supposedly, Latin as used in the Vulgate and the Roman Catholic liturgy is not quite the same as classical Latin, due to word drift. Some have suggested that it may have evolved from Latin military slang, but no idea whether that's true. But it does bring to mind an emperor maybe in the 1st or 2nd century who was appalled that Greek was supplanting Latin in his day, and took punitive action against a prominent figure who could speak Greek, but little Latin.

The nasty thought is whether Classical Latin was essentially dead by the time of that emperor. Could it be that the requirement for the use of Latin back in that emperor's day kept that form going longer than it would have otherwise?

 

[Cash_Stronomer]

I've been asked numerous times at work, probably since the majority is half my age, to stop using words like 'whilst' and 'hence', etc. etc., and to stop using cursive the odd time I have to write something. I just tell them to go back to school, because that's where I picked up my 'bad habits'.

 

[OldGnome]

I have one thing to say.

The freaking L in folk and yolk is SILENT.

...and salmon.

[emoji35]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Raissermesser]

For too long the L has suffered in silence. It will be heard!

 

[Raissermesser]

I've been asked numerous times at work, probably since the majority is half my age, to stop using words like 'whilst' and 'hence', etc. etc., and to stop using cursive the odd time I have to write something. I just tell them to go back to school, because that's where I picked up my 'bad habits'.

Have made a deliberate effort to use cursive to improve handwriting. OTOH, since we've used CAD/CAM for years, my free-hand print lettering is starting to suffer.

The saddest comment came from a recent dental appointment. The doctor mentioned my clear handwriting. That meant he'd seen much worse.

 

[TexLaw]

The doctor mentioned my clear handwriting. That meant he'd seen much worse.

Of course he has. Doctors are the worst.

 

[FarmerTan]

I was a nurse long enough to remember when there were only written records/doctor notes. Several Doc's have told me over the years that their notes were written sloppily so that they could have them say what they need them to say if they are sued. I doubt it though. Mostly lazy. I hated deciphering prescriptions when I did admissions. Calling the pharmacy was something I hated to do; they are busy too. So I'd call the doctor. Being a male they never yelled at me. Some of them really seemed to get off on yelling at the female nurses though. But if a woman stood up to them they never did it again. Always felt sorry for their wives. Not a fan of bullies.

 

[Macfrommichigan]

I was a nurse long enough to remember when there were only written records/doctor notes. Several Doc's have told me over the years that their notes were written sloppily so that they could have them say what they need them to say if they are sued. I doubt it though. Mostly lazy. I hated deciphering prescriptions when I did admissions. Calling the pharmacy was something I hated to do; they are busy too. So I'd call the doctor. Being a male they never yelled at me. Some of them really seemed to get off on yelling at the female nurses though. But if a woman stood up to them they never did it again. Always felt sorry for their wives. Not a fan of bullies.

So, these phone calls: Were the female nurses decimated to be yelled at by the docs?

 

[davent]

I have one thing to say.

The freaking L in folk and yolk is SILENT.

...and salmon.

[emoji35]

But not in salmonella.
dave

 

[oc_in_fw]

I've been asked numerous times at work, probably since the majority is half my age, to stop using words like 'whilst' and 'hence', etc. etc., and to stop using cursive the odd time I have to write something. I just tell them to go back to school, because that's where I picked up my 'bad habits'.

Throw them for a tizzy- use masticate in a sentence.

 

[natenaaron]

But not in salmonella.
dave

Nope. Different word origin. Like Moose. Plural is not Meese.

 

[davent]

Nope. Different word origin. Like Moose. Plural is not Meese.

Salmonella was named after an American named Dr. Daniel Salmon the veterinary surgeon who isolate the bacteria. No idea how he came by his surname.

dave

 

[oc_in_fw]

Salmonella was named after an American named Dr. Daniel Salmon the veterinary surgeon who isolate the bacteria. No idea how he came by his surname.

dave

Imagine having it for a first name (Salmon P Chase was on Abraham Lincoln’s cabinet and US Supreme Court Chief Justice).