Various Horse Leather

[HVenture138]

Hello All

So I understand that cordovan is a tanning process and that shell is a cut of leather from the horse rump and that Horween is a tannery, but......

what is the difference between horse hide and horse Butt?

is Horse hide just a generic term for any horse leather or is it a specific cut?

if butt is different from hide why does it seem like butt as a stropping material has fallen out of vogue?

what is the difference between
bark tanned and veg tanned?

why would one prize shell that was not cordovan tanned (treated) over other cuts of horse leather? Or would one even?

Until recently I had only used bovine strops until I picked up
a notovan from Tony Miller
and it has piqued my interest in
non bovine strops.

Thanks for your insights

 

[stone and strop]

Horse hide can be from anywhere on the horse. The shoulder, back or even belly I suppose.
Butt is obviously from the butt. It is a slightly heavier, tougher tighter grain from that area (takes a beating you know)
Shell is the cut from muscle underneath the butt area.
Cordovan is a process that takes 6 months. It is the finest leather available and Shell is the cut of choice for it.
Vintage shell that was bark tanned or some other variant of tanning still makes for an extremely durable, flexible stropping material. Much more so than other cuts of leather.

 

[bluesman 7]

I've heard shell described as more like a callous that is under the skin of the horses butt. It doesn't have a traditional flesh side or skin side like leather and is pretty uniform from one side to the other through it's thickness.

 

[HVenture138]

I've heard shell described as more like a callous that is under the skin of the horses butt. It doesn't have a traditional flesh side or skin side like leather and is pretty uniform from one side to the other through it's thickness.

Interesting you say that, I’ve heard tell of folks restoring opposite the original stropping side on their shells.

 

[Tony Miller]

As mentioned horsehide can be from anywhere. Horse butt is sort of the butt/hip area just above the shell. Image your own butt with each cheek being a shell. Horse butt would be just above this, starting at the hip down to each cheek (this is the leather I use). Horween calls them "strips" as that is the shape they resemble. Horse 'fronts" tend to be quite thin and flexible and usually used for garments (flight jackets).

In the image below the top three are cow/steerhides the bottom three horse.

 

[bluesman 7]

I've heard shell described as more like a callous that is under the skin of the horses butt. It doesn't have a traditional flesh side or skin side like leather and is pretty uniform from one side to the other through it's thickness.

@Tony Miller Hi Tony, Is the above statement correct? I am not a leather worker, but the above is my understanding and is paraphrased from a response from Horween sp?

 

[stone and strop]

@Tony Miller Hi Tony, Is the above statement correct? I am not a leather worker, but the above is my understanding and is paraphrased from a response from Horween sp?

Here it is described as more of a muscle over the rump.

The barbers' manual : Moler, A. B. (Arthur Bass), 1866- : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Editions for 1928 and 1931 covered by this record

www.archive.org

If it were a callous it would still be part of the hide as I'm not sure a callous can form under the skin.

 

[bluesman 7]

If it were a callous it would still be part of the hide as I'm not sure a callous can form under the skin.

Well I did say "like a callous" and IIRC the info from Horween said 'more like a callous'. I have no direct knowledge on any of this, hence my question to Tony. I do find it interesting though.

 

[Tony Miller]

I think it is more of a connective tissue under the skin, rather than the skin itself. Most that I have seen however does have a smooth "grain" side and a more textured "flesh" side. The smooth "skin" may be from all the handwork that is done to it at Horween. Maybe sort of a "corrected" grain finish where one side is altered to provide a different texture than what naturally would be the finish. (Just shooting from memory here, been a long time since I researched shell).

 

[bluesman 7]

Thank you Tony

 

[Chandu]

why would one prize shell that was not cordovan tanned (treated) over other cuts of horse leather?

Much is made of cordovan but the reason the butt is good has to do with the leather being naturally harder there. It simply makes a better strop. Horse is superior to cow in that it usually contains more natural silicates. Now, if you are stropping with compound, then the leather becomes more of a carrier and the leather's inherent abrasive qualities don't matter as much.

 

[Tony Miller]

Much is made of cordovan but the reason the butt is good has to do with the leather being naturally harder there. It simply makes a better strop. Horse is superior to cow in that it usually contains more natural silicates. Now, if you are stropping with compound, then the leather becomes more of a carrier and the leather's inherent abrasive qualities don't matter as much.

I agree 100%. I find the horse butts to usually be much more firm than most cow hides and has nearly zero stretch to it in a strop application. If making bench or paddle strops horsebutt can also be sourced as "hard rolled" which makes it nearly as hard as Masonite and will have no give under the edge almost like stropping directly on wood. I also happen to like the coloring patterns and variations typically found on horsebutt.

I also agree with the pasting comment. Once you add an abrasive spray, paste or emulsion I feel it matters little what the substrate is other than its hardness. I see guys "needing" kangaroo or cordovan for a pasted paddle (mostly on the knife groups) and once you put an abrasive on the leather (or cloth) it is the abrasive now doing the work, not what is under it. For razors I want a firm, harder temper leather to reduce give under the pressure of stropping (no matter how light). For knives however I may choose a soft leather if I like convex edges, hard if I want to maintain a crisp secondary bevel.