Variables Affecting Edge Life?

[duke762]

Wanted to resurrect this to share my results. My edges are now astounding and long lived. Thank you @Gamma and @Slash McCoy for helping me find out just what exactly was going on here.

I had recently switched from natural stones with oil, to Shapton pro 1.5, 5, 8, 12k and then to a Black or Trans Ark.

Bottom line....

I honed about 5 razors the same.

I rushed the 1.5k. Had a nice burr set "BUT" didn't press on to refine it at that level like Gamma has recommended over and over. Good work isn't fast and fast work isn't good. New hone exuberance...therefore...

I was getting lots of swarf at 5k, blackening the hone which always concerns me and freaked me out about water stones. I did spend time on the 5k, but I don't remember how long.

8k Oh boy! I'm in finishing territory! Lots of laps on 8k leading to...

Lots of laps on the 12k. Oh Boy really cool synth finishing stone. I'm really going to sharpen these razors really nice....

And unto lots of laps on my Black/Trans Arks.

Did anyone catch all the errors here? 2 great big ones.

Bevel set and refinement is #1. Thank you Gamma!

Treating the 8k and 12K stones like they were oil stones is #2 . I had become accustomed to always using a higher lap count. This
resulted in a fin as Slash had suggested. I couldn't see it. Thank you Slash!

So I learned a lot here. Strive for superior bevels, do all the work on the 1.5k and 5k. Limit the laps on the 8k and 12k. And now I do a couple vertical strokes to remove any residual burr traces.

Edges are lasting much, much longer than I ever expected possible. I'm tickled pink.

 

[JPO]

Thank you for sharing your eureka moment

 

[buca3152]

I don't.count anymore but I would say that I shave at least 50-60 shaves. And generally I hone several razors at a time so they all get it need it or not. I did get 92 shaves out of a gold dollar. I do have some flax linen that I have used at times to keep an edge zippy. It's clean no paste. Bought it brand new from Torolf at scrupleworks. I do strop 50 or so after the shave (leather) And I always spray the blade with clippercide and store it open always. And then I typically do at least 60 laps preshave(leather). I am absolutely sure that my routine leaves the blade completely dry and coated with oil. I always shave after a shower. Good prep is important imo.

 

[SilverSteel]

Wanted to resurrect this to share my results. My edges are now astounding and long lived. Thank you @Gamma and @Slash McCoy for helping me find out just what exactly was going on here.

I had recently switched from natural stones with oil, to Shapton pro 1.5, 5, 8, 12k and then to a Black or Trans Ark.

Bottom line....

I honed about 5 razors the same.

I rushed the 1.5k. Had a nice burr set "BUT" didn't press on to refine it at that level like Gamma has recommended over and over. Good work isn't fast and fast work isn't good. New hone exuberance...therefore...

I was getting lots of swarf at 5k, blackening the hone which always concerns me and freaked me out about water stones. I did spend time on the 5k, but I don't remember how long.

8k Oh boy! I'm in finishing territory! Lots of laps on 8k leading to...

Lots of laps on the 12k. Oh Boy really cool synth finishing stone. I'm really going to sharpen these razors really nice....

And unto lots of laps on my Black/Trans Arks.

Did anyone catch all the errors here? 2 great big ones.

Bevel set and refinement is #1. Thank you Gamma!

Treating the 8k and 12K stones like they were oil stones is #2 . I had become accustomed to always using a higher lap count. This
resulted in a fin as Slash had suggested. I couldn't see it. Thank you Slash!

So I learned a lot here. Strive for superior bevels, do all the work on the 1.5k and 5k. Limit the laps on the 8k and 12k. And now I do a couple vertical strokes to remove any residual burr traces.

Edges are lasting much, much longer than I ever expected possible. I'm tickled pink.

Thanks for sharing your experiences and those very interesting findings. Could you please provide a bit more detailed insight into the following points:

- How did you identify the fin edge at the end?

- How to know how much is enough on the 8k and 12k? (I thought the goal is to remove any previous grind marks and see a very good undercut?)

- You describe the positive impact those changes had on the edge live. Did you also notice any difference in sharpness/smoothness of the edges?

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

I am always impressed how much better guy’s stones get after a year or two.

Practice does not make perfect, Perfect practice makes perfect.

Good on you for hanging in and discovering the nuance of honing. A year from now your edges will be even better.

 

[Slash McCoy]

Well, if you maintain post-shave with the balsa, properly prepared and used, edge longevity is moot and you will never know how long your edge might last, as it will simply never get dull. And, since that is what I do, I may be speaking out of turn here, talking about factors that influence edge life, but the most important thing is to have a CLEAN edge, with no artifacts. No fin, wire, burr, whatever. A VERY slight convexity can help, and similarly, a microbevel created with no more than 3 or 4 careful laps at a slightly higher angle, (a layer of kapton, e.g.) and extremely light pressure, will make a durable edge that will still have good cutting power. Bevel angle matters, too. While a finer bevel angle will have greater initial eagerness to cut anything it sees, a more obtuse bevel angle will allow for an edge that deteriorates more slowly. The fatter edge is the tougher edge even though the skinny edge will be perceptibly sharper initially. Then, there is the biggie: the steel. Harder is better, right? Not necessarily. Certainly to a degree it is generally true that harder steel allows an edge to last longer, but other factors besides gross hardness come into play, like the granularity of the steel, it's homogenousity and tendency to chip or shed little bits. Some steels are crazy hard but difficult to hone and maintain without microchipping. Urged by @rbscebu I not long ago bought four different Titan razors made from four different steels and hardnesses. The hardest and most expensive was extremely difficult to hone due not so much to the difficulty in removing steel, but the eagerness of the steel to flake and chip on a microscopic level. It was hard as any razor I have ever honed, but very touchy and I ended up not liking that one, while their bottom shelf razor with a hardness of only C60 was actually pretty good, honed easily, and readily took a very calm and gentle feeling edge with good cutting power, finished with the balsa.

Once you own the razor, there isn't anything you can do about the steel or its hardness. You got what you got. For practical purposes, the bevel angle is already fixed, too, though it is simple to "cheat" it to be more obtuse by taping the spine, if you are into that, and the microbevel technique gives you most of the advantages of both the more acute and more obtuse bevel angles. The most readily addressed factor in an edge's inherent longevity is how clean the edge is. Artifacts at the edge will mess you up. Stropping often just folds them back and forth, or breaks them off with a resulting micro-chunk torn out of the edge. Enough of that, and you have perceptibly reduced cutting power. So, while creating a bit of a burr in the early stages of bevel setting is not a bad thing and can actually make setting the bevel easier and quicker, one should be eliminating any burr by the time the bevel is regarded as properly set, and preventing burr formation as the edge is refined, polished, and finished. All wire or fin edge begins with a burr, however small it might be. The edge must flex upward with resulting loss of contact with the honing media during the stroke, exposing steel to more direct pressure behind the edge. Flipping the razor and making a stroke with the other side down would seem like it would remove that burr, and to some degree it does, but it can also flex it back the other way and continue attacking the bevel behind the edge from the other side. As the edge loses support through more of the same honing technique, it flexes more easily, and walah, you have a fin edge. Or wire edge. Essentially the same thing. And it begins with a burr too small to detect by touch or sight.

A more aggressive stone or slurry on the stone tends to cut away burr that was formed by the previous stroke on the other side, and also cumulatively formed artifacts. Heavy pressure of course causes more edge flexion and supports creation of a burr. Long strokes on a long honing surface are very efficient at removing steel, but they can facilitate burr formation, too. Honing multiple strokes on one side, a key component in setting the bevel by the burr method or modified burr method, can raise a monster burr that is readily detectable by casual unaided observation, if taken to extremes. Ordinary x strokes with ordinary pressure, maybe with a bit of slurry, will not make a significant burr on a coarse stone. But of course the deep scratch pattern manifests itself in a toothy edge that must be refined for a comfortable shave. As the razor is progressively honed on finer, harder stones, or finer film, there is less gross abrasive action and so one factor in preventing burr formation is eliminated. To compensate, lighter pressure is used to keep the flexible and fragile edge in good contact with the hone. As you reach the nominal finish stone or film, burr formation can again occur even with light pressure. It was once felt that fewer laps was the answer, and it is indeed an answer, but an incomplete one. If the pressure is light enough, it is difficult to "over-hone" with excessive and unneeded laps. However it can still happen, just on a smaller scale.

There are several solutions to the problem as it is manifested in the finishing stage of honing the razor. One is honing in hand rather than bench honing. Particularly for a beginner, it is easier to regulate pressure when the hone and razor are both floating in space in front of you, and not supported by bench or table, one hand only on the razor. As a bonus, it is much easier to implement a rolling x stroke that is not overdone, when honing in hand. Many honers compensate for an existing smiling edge with an unintentionally exaggerated rolling x stroke, making the smile bigger, which for some of us I suppose is maybe a possible improvement, but not for others who prefer a straight edge or the originally designed smile. Held in hand, the hone rolls naturally to the insistence of the razor passing over it. Mostly though, honing in hand helps with the regulation and balance of pressure. Old hands at honing who can create a treetopping edge on the bench need not bother switching to in-hand honing, but a beginner should learn to hone in hand, and an intermediate honer who desires more edge improvement really should try it. And the main goal here is controlled pressure reduction. I even go so far as to finish with my balsa held vertically, so that the weight of the razor is not a factor. YMMV, and of course you can't do that when honing using any fluids such as water or honing oil. Light pressure not only compensates for more laps, but actually requires more laps.

One technique that will help to clean up an edge is the pull stroke. A pull stroke quite simply is placing the razor as usual on the hone, with the shoulder just barely off the hone, and drawing it directly to the side rather than stroking it normally in the long direction of the hone. This sideways pull should be with light pressure and only be about 3/4" in length. Flip and do the other side. A few laps thus performed will do much to strip the boogers off the edge. This of course makes longitudinal scratches in the bevel including right at the edge, and can slightly round the bevel right at the edge, and so it may be desireable to peak the edge back up with a limited number of short x strokes. In fact, I always do exactly that.

Time and distance stroked on one side without switching sides, is also a determinant in severity or likelihood of burr formation. A long hone is sweet to use! But just as multiple consecutive strokes on one side can raise a burr, so too, can a single very long stroke. Hypothesize for a moment about a 10 foot long hone, and a machine that exactly duplicates the weight and grip of a human hand that will flawlessly stroke the razor from one end to the other of this mega-hone. How is that any different from a set of 20 back and forth strokes on one side? A burr is almost sure to result, however light the pressure might be. Not a big burr, but a burr, and here at the finish stage, the little things begin to matter a lot. So conversely I think you will agree, there is a place in the honing regimen for even shorter than normal strokes. A finish of extremely short x strokes is a great way to eke out that last bit of edge fineness without creating any artifacts.

Some honers alternate such short x strokes between heel leading and toe leading, or use a zig-sag stroke, to create a soft cross-hatch scratch pattern, and report very nice results from this. I honestly don't notice the difference, but this could be due to maxing out the edge using ultra light pressure, pull strokes, and short x strokes. Properly done, I can't even see a scratch pattern through my Belomo.

This very clean edge will of course wear normally, but will not have any bits hanging off to be torn from the edge, and will also be good for a very smooth shave if the shaving angle is kept small, and pressure light, and of course good skin stretching. But the topic here is edge life, and a clean edge, all other things equal, will retain its qualities longer than an edge with fin or wire or little bits hanging on it. Even a nice smooth fin edge will deteriorate rapidly even if initially its cutting power is absolutely amazing. A weak edge doesn't last, no matter how sharp it is. An edge that is both sharp and sturdy will last, and extreme sharpness will certainly mellow with wear but the underlying qualities of the edge will shine forth after a few dozen shaves, compared to the average edge.

Stropping. The 600lb gorilla in the room. Myself, I do not use a fabric component on my strops. I have never found them to be capable of any improvement that I cannot get from good leather alone. In fact, I think that a fabric component can actually batter an edge and cause a slight deterioration compared to leather alone. But more on that in a second, so hold off on the howls of outrage, linen fans, just for a minute. Like most shavers I strop with rather light pressure and a moderately tight, clean unpasted strop, before every shave. The results are pleasing. But we have all seen professional barbers, and no, not in movies either, letting the strop sag loosely as they zip the razor fast as lightning up and down this huge catenary, and they manage to pull off a pretty good shave, for all that. What gives? I'll tell you what I think. The range of stropping parameters that will work, is pretty wide. Fabric is not necessarily an edge killer, either. The most important thing is CONSISTENCY. Always having the same tightness and pressure, always using the same x stroke pattern, even generally the same number of laps and even the same strop, will I believe do more to keep the edge going than micro adjustments in your stropping technique.

As I mentioned previously, I use .1μ diamond balsa post shave, for edge maintenance. This is not a fair comparison, since technically the diamond on balsa is honing the razor, but it needs to be said, that if you do this, there is no edge deterioration, at least not over the course of several years, and revisiting the stone or the film is not required unless you ding the edge on something.

<EDIT> I forgot to mention shave technique. Scraping is hard on the razor, just as it is hard on the face. A nice low shave angle, as low as the razor will readily shave at, not only is kind to your face but is also kind to your edge. Pressure is a factor, too. You may not realize it, but you are essentially stropping your razor on your face as you shave, albeit at a high angle compared to flat on the strop. lighten and tighten, and your edge will last longer. And keep it clean and dry. I don't oil, usually, my regular shavers, but there is no reason not to, other than the bother of doing it.

 

[rbscebu]

@Slash McCoy, a very good and detailed post ^.

Just to elaborate on your steel hardness findings. I have honed and shave with Titan SR's having the following approximate hardnesses:

• 60 RHC of high carbon steel - 10 SR's with none exhibiting any edge micro chipping.
• 63 RHC of VG10 type stainless steel - 7 SR's with 5 exhibiting edge micro chipping. I gave this M7DS to my little brother who wanted them for their aesthetics.
• 64 RHC of ACRO stainless steel - 8 SR's with 3 exhibiting edge micro chipping.
• 70 RHC ACRO stainless steel - 12 SR's with none exhibiting edge micro chipping. I have sold a few of these but have kept a M7DS+ in my rotation.

I very much agree that it is not just steel hardness that can make or break an edge's longevity. I believe that grain size and intergranular bonding are also important factors. Unfortunately these can not be easily determined.

Out of the four types above, I would recommend the 60 RHC HCS for a n00bie to SR shaving and the 70 RHC SS for one who wants a longer lasting edge and doesn't mind putting in the extra work to initially get that edge.

Of course, maintaining an edge on a hanging 0.1μm diamond pasted balsa strop like I do, makes edge longevity a moot point.

 

[duke762]

How did you identify the fin edge at the end?

I couldn't see anything wrong with my finish honed edge. The light came on when I noticed lots of spakles on the apex after 1 or 2 shaves. I originally thought I was lacking in my technique to damage an edge that quickly.

How to know how much is enough on the 8k and 12k? (I thought the goal is to remove any previous grind marks and see a very good undercut?)

I've seen 2 videos by Gamma. One was a test of 8k stones and the other was a progression on water stones (IIRC they were Shaptons like I use...maybe not) anyhow I can't find it again, much to my dismay. He mentioned 8k as his least used stone, once again IIRC. During the testing video he limited his laps on the 8k. All work should be done on the 1.5 and 5k. I'm not sure on the whole theory and I don't know exactly how it affects stria. I think what he was trying to say is that if you've done your work correctly at 1.5 and 5k, then there is hardly anything for the 8k to do. Like wise with the 12k. I refer to these grits because that's what I have. I'm still figuring out water stones and I hope some one else will chime in about the removing the stria. Are there 2 schools of thought on the use of 8k and higher water stones?

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

So, 1k or what ever stone you use to bevel set is your grinder. Shape the bevels flat, to the correct bevel angle and get them to meet at the edge. Usually this will cause a rough flashing/burr edge. You can hone away the edge burr, break it off or joint the edge and re-hone the bevels, (10-20 laps) to meeting at the new, straight, jointed edge.

If you break the flashing/burr off, you have a rough edge. and it is a crap shoot if the bevels will meet fully again on higher grit stones, especially for new honers.

Once you fully set a bevel, (you must develop a definitive test), the next most important stone is the transition stone. This stone transitions from grinding to polishing,(And removes the deep 1k stria), you already have flat bevels meeting in the correct plane, which meet at the edge. All you have to do is polish the bevel to polish/straighten. (Remove the previous stria with each stone in the progression) the edge with the rest of the stones. After bevel set, they are all polishers.

You only need to polish the edge, but unless you use a micro bevel you must polish the bevel to polish the edge.

If the bevels do not meet fully, you broke off the burr and have a ragged edge, or you have other edge issues like a heel that needs correction and is keeping the edge off the stone, you do not have an edge.

The most critical step is a fully set bevel, from heel to toe. The simplest and most definitive test is to look straight down on the edge with a strong light and magnification. If you see any shiny reflections, that is where the bevels are not meeting or micro-chips. Whichever test you use, it must be definitive.

It is not a question of how many laps you need on an 8k, but do you have an edge? You cannot polish an edge that does not exist.