Variables Affecting Edge Life?

[duke762]

I've read posts about how long an edge can be maintained with just stropping on plain leather. I'm not even close on some of the estimates on how long an edge should last. Not that I mind, I'd rather hone more than shave and I feel my edges are primo. Maybe I'm just getting finicky, but I'm getting tuggy shaves and edge deterioration after less than 20 shaves. So I went through the variables..

Experience - 1000 maybe more shaves
Edge - Outstanding. Hard won and proven, repeatable on demand
Stone Flattening - Good to go
Bevel - Set, refined, verified
Progression - 1.5, 5k, 8k, 12k Shapton Pros, Trans Ark
Stropping - 10 Linen Shell 50 laps
Strop Condition - Nice, no problems here
Technique - The only thing I can't swear to...
Razor Quality - 3 Henckles and others
Blade Condition - No corrosion, no excessive hone wear affecting angle, nice unrestored razors
Beard - Thin and not excessively course
Edge Feel When Fresh - Cutting cleanly, velvet beard squeegee....... I've found "the" edge and can consistently reproduce it
Edge Appearance When Fresh - Clean apex, no features visible at 60x
Edge After +/- 20 Shaves - Many apex features(sparkles) and chips
Edge Feel +/- 20 Shaves - Tuggy, scratchy, won't shave clean

Actually things are going downhill quickly after about a dozen shaves. I can watch it progress through the scope and feel it. It also shows up as a reluctance to shave problem areas that the edge handled easily when freshly honed and stropped. Actually I kind of judge my edges on their ability to shave difficult areas.

Technique is the only thing I can point at. I strive for the 30 degree hold and the only place I don't even try to maintain it on my upper lip, under my nose where I'm more scraping than cutting. I've been trying to get more of that area with an XTG instead of WTG but some areas are just not XTG possible for me.

Could just my upper lip be causing the edges to deteriorate? I mean actual damage and chipping to the edge. I end up going back to 5k or 8k to get the edge back. Yeah, everything looks worse at 60x, but I feel what I'm seeing. Compromised shave quality. I'm talking things a mere touch up on the finisher would not fix.

Am I being unreasonable in my assumption my edges should last longer before needing more than a touch up?

Could this be prevented by revisiting the Trans every couple of shaves?

 

[SliceOfLife]

I hone before every single shave. No reason not to when I collect both razors and finishers.

That said, I've had a handful of repeat shaves here and there, and several 2nd and third shaves lately as I've been testing another person's edges.

Frankly, I don't know how people don't detect degradation after a few shaves. Shave 1 and 2 are quite distinct from each other on nearly every edge I've tried. (2 is not always worse, but it's always different). Maybe edges settle down after a handful of shaves... but still based on the wear I'm seeing per shave... only a relatively dull edge would last more than a handful, maybe a dozen shaves without noticeable abrasion to touch it up. I've seen multiple reports of 100+ shaves, and I have to think there's some abrasive in their process that they're unaware of. I vaguely recall reading that vintage linen was very mildly abrasive (in the hundredths of a micron) due to the fibers used having some microscopic harder than steel particles in the mix... also heard the same about leather having some incredible small abrasive property... no clue if there's any truth to that, but I'd wager dollars to donuts there's plenty of strops out there that for whatever reason offer abrasion that their users are totally unaware of or even assume isn't there. It's sufficiently subtle that it's unnoticeable except over the course of these "no hone" challenges... and of course it's going to vary strop to strop. That's my best guess for where this disparity comes in; because I've got a pretty rough beard... but even so, the damage I see in edges under the scope after only 1,2, 3 shaves is significant. There's no way any edge is going to last 100+ shaves against even the softest beard unless SOMETHING is abrading the edge in a positive way along the way.

On the other hand, I've also seen guys say they get a dozen shaves without stropping... so it could just be a VERY big difference in what people can detect as edge degradation.


As for technique. I shave 100% spine to skin (which is the least possible stress to the edge) except when shaving my upper lip directly under my nose. Technique does not prevent normal amounts of edge wear.

 

[rbscebu]

The main things that affect edge life are; steel type/quality, bevel angle and shaving angle. I can get a out 20 double-pass full- face shaves from a blade without even stropping it.

Most of my blades are very good Japanese steel with bevel angles around 17°. I'm happy shaving with that bevel angle. Others may prefer less or more.

 

[lightfoot]

Yeah I try not to see how far I can go between touch ups. 7-10 strokes on a 10K or a very hard Coticule w/ some special techniques involved every 3rd shave or so.

 

[rbscebu]

Yeah I try not to see how far I can go between touch ups. 7-10 strokes on a 10K or a very hard Coticule w/ some special techniques involved every 3rd shave or so.

My edges only get honed once - when I first get them. I touch-up after each shave on 0.1um diamond pasted balsa and then about 50 laps on clean leather before each shave.

 

[iamryan25]

Maybe I'm just getting finicky, but I'm getting tuggy shaves and edge deterioration after less than 20 shaves.

That isn't too shabby.

Experience - 1000 maybe more shaves

This probably rules out shaving technique, unless shaving was learned with a poor technique and reinforced for 1000 shaves, lol.

Stropping - 10 Linen Shell 50 laps
Strop Condition - Nice, no problems here
Technique - The only thing I can't swear to...

This is one area that could be tinkered with.

Things to try include inspecting the strop and changing the lap count.

Adjusting tension and pressure can go a long way, too.

Another thing that comes to mind is to use linen only after the initial honing and just using clean leather stropping in between shaves after that.

Am I being unreasonable in my assumption my edges should last longer before needing more than a touch up?

Adjusting what is happening in between shaves might help prolong the life of the edge.

How many shaves per honing are you hoping for?

Could this be prevented by revisiting the Trans every couple of shaves?

This would be something worth testing since you have the equipment.

Do you get more longevity if you finish with a different stone?

Is the edge protected with oil in between shaves and is there any chance it is oxidizing?

 

[lightfoot]

My edges only get honed once - when I first get them. I touch-up after each shave on 0.1um diamond pasted balsa and then about 50 laps on clean leather before each shave.

I think I’m pretty much using my finishing stone in much the same way. But a less keen finish needs a little more attention for me at least.

 

[bluesman 7]

I've seen multiple reports of 100+ shaves, and I have to think there's some abrasive in their process that they're unaware of.

I'm one of the guys who often gets ~100 shaves before hitting the stones and I agree with the above statement, but take exception to the insinuation that I'm not aware of the abrasive content in my strops. If my secondary doesn't have some abrasive properties, it is not a proper secondary IMO.

 

[global_dev]

Can you determine the bevel angles of your razors and see if there is a correlation?

 

[Slash McCoy]

One problem is that edge and shave quality are very subjective. I maintain my edges by stropping on lapped and pasted balsa, specifically .1u diamond, 50 extremely light laps, not even the weight of the razor, (balsa held vertically) and my edges so maintained never get dull. If I am traveling with one razor or for some other reason I am not using the balsa, after 3 or 4 shaves I can spot the difference. However, it is a matter of perception. The edge will still treetop but I can definitely detect a slight degredation in performance from the original light saber edge that was there with post shave balsa treatment. I am spoiled from consistently brilliant edges, and anything less is noticeable to me. Someone else might shave with that edge and pronounce it very sharp, but it is all relative. Maybe your edge degradation is just more obvious to you due to your expectations and perception. This is hard to really quantify objectively. Your edges might be holding up just as good as the average edge. Or they might not.

One thing you could try, is lay off the linen. At a certain level of fineness, the linen I believe beats and batters the edge and takes a toll on its cutting power until it degrades to a certain level, at which point it doesn't really hurt anything anymore. YMMV on that. But next time you hone up a favorite razor, just as an uncontrolled experiment, skip the linen and for the next 20 or 30 shaves, strop on leather only.

30 degrees is a pretty high shave angle, especially for a very sharp edge. Even though you say your beard is not particularly coarse, a high shave angle can still accelerate its effect on your edge. Try using a gap of one spine thickness between spine and face. Fresh off the stones, try even tighter angles.

I really can't think of anything else that might make you find your edges to be deteriorating faster than your expectations than these three things. Your level of experience should preclude any weird omissions that a newbie would make.

Well, one more possibility. Could be the trans ark finish is leaving you with a very slightly finned edge. IME those stones work best with crazy light pressure and lots and lots of laps. Emphasis on crazy light pressure. They can be so hard and cut so slowly, and have a total absence of slurry, and so form a very nice, very sharp fin edge that cuts with extreme efficiency at first, but degrades at a higher rate than most other edges. If you have say a Naniwa 12k SS, you might try replacing your arkie with that, for once, and use plenty of pull strokes and short strokes at the end. I haven't used an ark in a long time, since way before I started using pull strokes and short strokes. But I think due to the nature of the trans ark surface, they might be less effective on the ark, and so might not clear the edge the way they would on a synthetic or a slurried natural. So a Naniwa finish with pull strokes and short x strokes to clear the edge and peak the apex might be just the ting. Definitely a different edge, and one to try or to revisit after a long period of arkie finishing. Lapping film would be just as good or better in terms of sharpness, and the finish can be manipulated in the same manner as the Naniwa. I have no experience with Shaptons except the coarser grits but I seem to recall the Shaps being rated by the ANSI scale while the Naniwas are rated by the JIS scale, so the Nanny will be a step up in fineness, maybe just enough to make you happy. And you can buy a sheet of film a lot cheaper than a new Nanny 12k.

Finally you could try skipping the Arkie and run the pasted balsa progression as in the pasted balsa thread. The .5u and .25u are necessary only to prep the blade for the .1u finish. Thereafter, hitting the .1u balsa after every shave does an excellent job of keeping your edge sharp and never exposing you to an edge that is starting to fall off a bit. There are of course a lot of things that can go wrong and a lot of mistakes that can be made, but following along the same way so many others have done is about as sure as it gets. If The Method balsa finish is followed perfectly and not freestyled at all, pretty much everybody nails it by their second attempt, if not the first. Your shave angle will have to be even lower, with the balsa edge, to avoid cuts or excessive exfoliation. Stretch good. Use it like a shavette and a Feather blade.

I would not go from trans ark straight to .5u diamond on balsa. I don't think it would correct the hypothetical fin edge all that well. You would want to drop down to 1u, I think, making it a 4 stage balsa progression. Easier to just drop the ark and go from 12k Shapton to .5u so you only need three balsa strops.

 

[bluesman 7]

I'm one of the guys who often gets ~100 shaves before hitting the stones and I agree with the above statement, but take exception to the insinuation that I'm not aware of the abrasive content in my strops. If my secondary doesn't have some abrasive properties, it is not a proper secondary IMO.

One thing you could try, is lay off the linen. At a certain level of fineness, the linen I believe beats and batters the edge and takes a toll on its cutting power until it degrades to a certain level, at which point it doesn't really hurt anything anymore. YMMV on that.

I should have cautioned that depending on the abrasive content of the secondary, it can be easily overdone. I have one polyester secondary that I rarely use more than three laps on. More than this, with this particular secondary, on a regular basis and the edge starts getting harsh.

 

[SliceOfLife]

I'm one of the guys who often gets ~100 shaves before hitting the stones and I agree with the above statement, but take exception to the insinuation that I'm not aware of the abrasive content in my strops. If my secondary doesn't have some abrasive properties, it is not a proper secondary IMO.

Well said,
My apologies.

I meant only that common thinking is that an uncharged linen is not abrasive in the traditional sense; so most users wouldn't think they are doing something abrasive or refining a razor when stropping on an uncharged strop.

I suspect, as it sounds like you do, there is some level of abrasion that is insignificant and/or difficult to detect in a single use, but its effect can be significant over multiple uses. While I've not encountered a poly component I find sufficiently aggressive to be like the 3 pass one you describe... I don't doubt there are ones out there with far more significant abrasion than typical (like that sounds) without being traditionally "pasted" or "charged".

 

[Gamma]

Certainly the equation of edge-life varies with each specific situation, user, and so on.
And there are going to be miles of variables also.
But..
One of the biggest factors in edge retention is the quality of the bevel-set work. Marginalized work there may lead to a so called 'shaving edge' but in the long run the edge will, inevitably, 'fall off' faster than it should or desired.
Under-honing is a real thing.
No one wants to hear their bevels can be better though, so that fact gets overlooked often.

Good Linen, in fact, when used correctly, has proven to impart a very positive effect on edges wnen used consistently in a conservative fashion. Just like I don't do 50 laps on a synth finisher, I don't do more than 7-8 laps on my linen. That's daily and I can assure you my edges are both extremely fine and none are ever battered by the fabric.

Sure, anyone can ruin anything by misusing anything, but that doesn't mean it has to go that way. Driving too fast all the time ensures accidents will happen. That doesn't mean driving a car means you will have an accident.
Water will kill you if you drink too much of it, so keep that in mind.

Yes, poly is fairly inert. Even highly textured weave poly stuffs are almost invisible.
But it will have effect that is more noticeable on finer edges than marginal ones. Hard to misuse it though.
For a while there was a textured plastic strop being sold and people were enamored with it. Turned out that the material had been impregnated with FeOx. After scrubbing and soaking and using solvents to release the abrasive, the material was maybe a hair better than using poly or nylon webbing.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Just did a test, and it looks to me like LEATHER is pretty darn abrasive on a microscopic level.


Vintage Shell and Linen combo used.

Some wear and odd scuffs here and there from 10, 30, 100, 200 linen followed by 10, 30, 100 Leather...

Then in the 100-200 leather, the bevel gets polished like I was running it on a pasted strop.

So my recommendation if you want to up time between touchups? Up your time on leather between shaves.

 

[Steve56]

If linen/cotton/jute/hemp/leather were not abrasive, we would not use them as razor strops.

 

[lightfoot]

Seems that the quality of my shave prep makes a difference too.

 

[Tomo]

I’ve settled on 3-4 shaves between touch ups on a natural finisher. Two razors gets me through the week with a single touch up session on the weekend. Shaves 1-4 feel a little different but the blade is still plenty sharp with no tugging.

For me it’s a balance between comfort, convenience and blade longevity. You need to get a great shave but there’s no point grinding off more metal than you need to. I like to stay ahead of the race and ensure the edge stays sharp enough so that little touch ups on a finisher are all it needs to bring the edge back.

 

[bluesman 7]

Well said,
My apologies.

I meant only that common thinking is that an uncharged linen is not abrasive in the traditional sense; so most users wouldn't think they are doing something abrasive or refining a razor when stropping on an uncharged strop.

I suspect, as it sounds like you do, there is some level of abrasion that is insignificant and/or difficult to detect in a single use, but its effect can be significant over multiple uses. While I've not encountered a poly component I find sufficiently aggressive to be like the 3 pass one you describe... I don't doubt there are ones out there with far more significant abrasion than typical (like that sounds) without being traditionally "pasted" or "charged".

No worries Ian, I knew what you meant.

Regarding the polyester firehose strop that I find to be the most aggressive secondary that I've run across. I did a little research to try to understand what could make polyester so aggressive. Turns out that fumed silica is often used as a thickener in polyester resin.

 

[kamp]

The most I got out of one edge before rehoning is the razor I learned on a 7/8 full hollow Herder I shaved for a half year only with this razor to learn shaving on (so 6 days a week a half year that would be around 150ish shave's before rehoning)
and for the first 2 years i used a paddle strop (without past) only after the first half year my rotation grew and after 2 years I got a hanging strop.
I use now only the hanging strops (sold the paddle) and typicly i do around 15 linnen and 30 leather before and 10 linnen after each shave.
But this was before i started honing myself so now I think it will be much sooner that i will touch up an edge

 

[duke762]

I just recently noticed this phenomenon because the Pleasure Palace put me on lots of mandatory overtime and it's become harder for me to get any honing time in. I thought, well, I have a few razors ready to go so I can shave well for a long time. Well that didn't work out as planned.

I’ve settled on 3-4 shaves between touch ups on a natural finisher. Two razors gets me through the week with a single touch up session on the weekend. Shaves 1-4 feel a little different but the blade is still plenty sharp with no tugging.

Yep, that's how I normally do it also. I'm going to try to hit the finisher more between shaves.

I hone before every single shave. No reason not to when I collect both razors and finishers.

Nice! That's my goal. I love to hone.

One of the biggest factors in edge retention is the quality of the bevel-set work. Marginalized work there may lead to a so called 'shaving edge' but in the long run the edge will, inevitably, 'fall off' faster than it should or desired.

That has been a hard learned lesson for me. I'm never afraid to start over these days because I've seen a bevel reset solve problems for me more than once.

Well, one more possibility. Could be the trans ark finish is leaving you with a very slightly finned edge. IME those stones work best with crazy light pressure and lots and lots of laps. Emphasis on crazy light pressure. They can be so hard and cut so slowly, and have a total absence of slurry, and so form a very nice, very sharp fin edge that cuts with extreme efficiency at first, but degrades at a higher rate than most other edges. If you have say a Naniwa 12k SS, you might try replacing your arkie with that, for once, and use plenty of pull strokes and short strokes

Interesting......I really don't think I'm developing a fin edge. Would it even be visible at 60x? I will try to dial down the pressure and see what happens. I tried shaving off my 12k Shapton Pro..... really didn't like it so I have no idea if it's more durable

Just did a test, and it looks to me like LEATHER is pretty darn abrasive on a microscopic level.

Thank you Slice! The pics are an eye opener.

30 degrees is a pretty high shave angle, especially for a very sharp edge. Even though you say your beard is not particularly coarse, a high shave angle can still accelerate its effect on your edge. Try using a gap of one spine thickness between spine and face. Fresh off the stones, try even tighter angles.

My angle of attack varies with the terrain and growth patterns. I kind of suspected this was contributing to my longevity concerns.

That isn't too shabby.

Just what I needed to hear! (Big sigh of relief)

This probably rules out shaving technique, unless shaving was learned with a poor technique and reinforced for 1000 shaves, lol.

I use a sabre grip and just do what makes the stubble go away. I do feel like I have a barbarian shaving method for some reason.


I'd like to thank everyone for their replies. Lot's of good info here. I plan on honing up a storm on Thanksgiving weekend. It may be many months before the overtime goes away. I'm going to make good use of any breaks from work to do catch up honing and try some new things.