Uneven honing. What am I doing wrong?

[misterelie]

Well, I am getting much better. My blades are getting wicked sharp and holding an edge (thanks, folks!) Now it is time to learn to address another issue. My hones are not even. I should say I am doing this on safety razor blades -- NOT the disposable ones, but stropping ones on vintage razors. The uneven wear always seems to be at the same place. I took a couple pics to show. this is in the middle of my hone. Always the same place on both sides. The right side (when you look at it) always has the proper amount, but as it moves to the left, it gets thin to nonexistent.

This is a pic mid-hone of one. I recently lapped the Norton 8000 stone I was using. The blade is a safety for a Thiers Issard set from the 1910's. The blade is now even. Most of the blades had horrible rust which I have gotten down to just the devil's tears, and it is ready to work on. This particular one is just an example of the uneven line I am getting.

I have not been honing in the strop holder at this point, instead just taping the spine until I get to the 12000 stone. And I have already evened out the edge on a 4000 stone. I have been altering between a little extra pressure on that side and a little less to see which one corrects the results and I do not seem to be getting what I am looking for. I have been more frequently lapping the stone and that has not helped. What adjustment do I need to make to my technique to correct this?

 

[xuzxuz]

Wow. Is that like Rolls Razor, except made by TI?

 

[misterelie]

Wow. Is that like Rolls Razor, except made by TI?

Well, yes and no. Like Rolls, it is a portion of a straight razor that you can attach to a handle with a safety bar on it. But unlike Rolls, it has a strop handle so I can run it down my normal full size strop and eventually (like now) it needs to be re-honed and does not have a honing stone. Basically, it isn't a full system like Rolls, but otherwise there are a number of similarities. I have a number of these. I very very much like the shaves I get from them.

 

[xuzxuz]

I love it.

I'm assuming the problem is with the bevel getting very thin on the left side?
Since you have a number of these, does this happen on all of them or just some?

I've not honed one of these but this guy looks like he knows what he's doing.

 

[misterelie]

I won't say it is on EVERY one, but it appears to be on more than a few of different models.

 

[xuzxuz]

I see.
If it happens on most or all of them, it could be that your whetstone isn't flat or maybe you have a habit of biasing one side.

Have you taken the blade to a low grit for a bevel set?
In the youtube video I posted, look at the bevel around 43:30.
There should be a fairly clean break between bevel and the face of the blade.
Your first photos lead me to believe that this was never done.
Of course, it's never easy to tell from just looking at pictures.

 

[stone and strop]

I would check the thickness across the spine on the troubled ones and also measure the size of the blade to see if its consistent across its width.
Given that the hone is flat, these two things could cause the anomaly.
If one side measures 23 mm or ??? and the other side is 25 mm it would make a huge difference.
Calipers would be the way to go if you have some.

 

[wildeied]

Okay, nooob here and my first post, so don't yell at me. Please? The only reason I'm jumping in is that I've been facing the same issues on straights. I bought a bunch of ebay throw aways and have been grinding them down. I had the same problem. Turns out that I had a couple of smily faces and one frowny face. The frowny had to be completely reset as I wasn't getting the edge in the middle. The smily face means I have something to learn. (Still?!?!) One other thing I might be seeing that I did as well is that you might have wear on your tape which is going to change your geometry. (Sounds like I know what I'm doing, right?) I read somewhere, that it's a good idea to change your tape every stone progression or even more often if you spend some time on a coarse stone. Oh, I set my edge on a good straight edge and looked for light to determine the frowny or smiley face. Much luck and I hope to hear more about this.

 

[misterelie]

I see.
If it happens on most or all of them, it could be that your whetstone isn't flat or maybe you have a habit of biasing one side.

Have you taken the blade to a low grit for a bevel set?
In the youtube video I posted, look at the bevel around 43:30.
There should be a fairly clean break between bevel and the face of the blade.
Your first photos lead me to believe that this was never done.
Of course, it's never easy to tell from just looking at pictures.

I thought I have seen every youtube vid on Rolls Razor blades, but that one is new to me. I shall be watching that one this evening. Thanks!! But looking at the marker you mentioned, yes, that is what I am going for.

As far as resetting the bevel. I had to restart with these around the 1000 and go up from there. It seems some of them I'm doing well at, others no, but that slant seems to be pervasive in the ones I am not.

I would check the thickness across the spine on the troubled ones and also measure the size of the blade to see if its consistent across its width.
Given that the hone is flat, these two things could cause the anomaly.
If one side measures 23 mm or ??? and the other side is 25 mm it would make a huge difference.
Calipers would be the way to go if you have some.

Usually I tape the spine. I do Slash McCoy's tap test, and if it is fine, I try not to touch the spine. I usually have to do something with Wilkinson Empire spines, but other safety blades like these and even Rolls seem to always be fine. I think I had one really bad Rolls I had to levelize the spine, but the TI's, the Kampfe, the Heljestrand, the Henkle safeties, they're all solid (like I said, I have a lot). Don't know if it is the length or shape, but it isn't the same issue as in a straight. At least so far ... in my VERY limited experience. And don't forget, these have to fit in a tool once they are ready, so I try not to mess with the geometry unless it is necessary. It MAY be, but I need to exhaust the other options first.

Okay, nooob here and my first post, so don't yell at me. Please? The only reason I'm jumping in is that I've been facing the same issues on straights. I bought a bunch of ebay throw aways and have been grinding them down. I had the same problem. Turns out that I had a couple of smily faces and one frowny face. The frowny had to be completely reset as I wasn't getting the edge in the middle. The smily face means I have something to learn. (Still?!?!) One other thing I might be seeing that I did as well is that you might have wear on your tape which is going to change your geometry. (Sounds like I know what I'm doing, right?) I read somewhere, that it's a good idea to change your tape every stone progression or even more often if you spend some time on a coarse stone. Oh, I set my edge on a good straight edge and looked for light to determine the frowny or smiley face. Much luck and I hope to hear more about this.

Hey! No worries! We're all trying to figure these out and learn from the experiences of others Welcome!!

 

[stone and strop]

Usually I tape the spine. I do Slash McCoy's tap test, and if it is fine, I try not to touch the spine. I usually have to do something with Wilkinson Empire spines, but other safety blades like these and even Rolls seem to always be fine. I think I had one really bad Rolls I had to levelize the spine, but the TI's, the Kampfe, the Heljestrand, the Henkle safeties, they're all solid (like I said, I have a lot). Don't know if it is the length or shape, but it isn't the same issue as in a straight. At least so far ... in my VERY limited experience. And don't forget, these have to fit in a tool once they are ready, so I try not to mess with the geometry unless it is necessary. It MAY be, but I need to exhaust the other options first.

Well, obviously there is a geometry issue or it would hone fine.
Taping has nothing to do with it.
Measure the two parameters I had mentioned to see if something is out.
Straights are much different with a lot more real-estate and are so much thinner to warp/twist etc.
Taking a few Thou off of either the spine or blade width will not affect the fit in the tool IMO or anything else.
Plus, if you can't hone it effectively then what good is it?

 

[hobber]

There are lots of good suggestions above. From personal experience, as a right-handed person, I used to have a nasty bias problem on normal straight razors on the push stroke. The edge from the pull stroke was always even. So, I really started looking at my results and looked at my (flawed) technique. Here's what I found.

When I honed with a hand-held coticule at the kitchen sink, I was able to get good symmetry on my razors, and a wicked sharp edge. But, when I honed sitting down at my kitchen table with the stone on a rubber stone holder base or block of wood, I never could achieve good symmetry or sharp edges. In fact, my edge sometimes would actually look wavy! I was applying the same technique either standing or seated, understood what the razor was supposed to feel like on the stone when completing each step of the honing process, but yet I was ending up with a no-good result when honing when sitting. Then it dawned on me....eureka moment!

When standing at the kitchen sink, the stone's vertical position (height) was lower relative to my body (vs. sitting at the kitchen table), and my honing hand elbow was above my hand while honing. When I sat at the table, my elbow on my honing hand was either level or below the plane of honing resulting in a heel bias on the push stroke. Not good, but I discovered the root cause. To solve this problem, I now hone on either a little card table which barely clears my knees when seated so that the stone is lower than my elbow, or standing at the kitchen sink. Again, what I found is that it is critical for efficient honing mechanics to have the stone's plane below my elbow's plane.

So, as an additional suggestion, maybe check your setup and technique as it relates to your honing hand elbow position..

 

[misterelie]

There are lots of good suggestions above. From personal experience, as a right-handed person, I used to have a nasty bias problem on normal straight razors on the push stroke. The edge from the pull stroke was always even. So, I really started looking at my results and looked at my (flawed) technique. Here's what I found.

When I honed with a hand-held coticule at the kitchen sink, I was able to get good symmetry on my razors, and a wicked sharp edge. But, when I honed sitting down at my kitchen table with the stone on a rubber stone holder base or block of wood, I never could achieve good symmetry or sharp edges. In fact, my edge sometimes would actually look wavy! I was applying the same technique either standing or seated, understood what the razor was supposed to feel like on the stone when completing each step of the honing process, but yet I was ending up with a no-good result when honing when sitting. Then it dawned on me....eureka moment!

When standing at the kitchen sink, the stone's vertical position (height) was lower relative to my body (vs. sitting at the kitchen table), and my honing hand elbow was above my hand while honing. When I sat at the table, my elbow on my honing hand was either level or below the plane of honing resulting in a heel bias on the push stroke. Not good, but I discovered the root cause. To solve this problem, I now hone on either a little card table which barely clears my knees when seated so that the stone is lower than my elbow, or standing at the kitchen sink. Again, what I found is that it is critical for efficient honing mechanics to have the stone's plane below my elbow's plane.

So, as an additional suggestion, maybe check your setup and technique as it relates to your honing hand elbow position..

Oh, now that is something I had not considered. I'd been holding back on honing in hand thinking it is a more advanced technique, but that would be an interesting experiment. I am left handed, so I do the work with my left hand

 

[hobber]

Oh, now that is something I had not considered. I'd been holding back on honing in hand thinking it is a more advanced technique, but that would be an interesting experiment. I am left handed, so I do the work with my left hand

@misterelie, i used to think the same thing (hand-held was harder), however i immediately found that it is actually simpler and produces tons more feedback honing this way. additionally, it is much easier to keep slurry and water on the stone by tilting it forwards or backwards / side-to-side when honing. people that have only sharpened against a stationary hone are truly missing out IMO. please do try it out and report back!

P.S. - Gary Haywood w/ hybrid coticule on YT. It's an oldie but a goodie!
Gary Haywood

 

[Herrenberg]

Again, what I found is that it is critical for efficient honing mechanics to have the stone's plane below my elbow's plane.

Thanks for this. I have been honing in hand, in a seated position. I'm standing up and trying it your way, and so far I like it a lot. It feels like I have more control over exactly where the pressure should go, and over keeping it consistent throughout the stroke.

 

[hobber]

Thanks for this. I have been honing in hand, in a seated position. I'm standing up and trying it your way, and so far I like it a lot. It feels like I have more control over exactly where the pressure should go, and over keeping it consistent throughout the stroke.

Yes! Good for you! And, if I find that I need to bias for what I like to call a "scratchy" (a non-smooth drag while honing), I can. On a good razor stone (cot, jnat, etc...), it is easy to refresh an edge in less than 5 minutes...as long as my elbow is above the stone's plane. Call it crazy, but I have found that it works!

 

[Herrenberg]

Yes! Good for you! And, if I find that I need to bias for what I like to call a "scratchy" (a non-smooth drag while honing), I can. On a good razor stone (cot, jnat, etc...), it is easy to refresh an edge in less than 5 minutes...as long as my elbow is above the stone's plane. Call it crazy, but I have found that it works!

Just tried the same technique for stropping on pasted balsa. It's clearly better too. As the producer said during the South Park "Curse Words" episode: where is the roof on this thing?

I'll tell you what I'm not doing: I'm not remounting my hanging strops to be lower. But I might try, just once, standing on a step stool, just to see how that goes.

I'm feeling pretty resentful that no one told me about this until now.

 

[xuzxuz]

@misterelie
TBF, I think honing those blades is nothing at all like honing a straight razor and you are probably in a unique struggle.

If I'd have to find the closest comparison, it'd be sharpening planes (or chisels).

Notice how a woodworker manipulates his finger positions to change where the stone cuts the iron. Probably worth giving this type of approach a shot.
As a different approach, I've had success with having more tape on one end of the spine. In the end, I've never really liked this approach in the longer term because you need to remember how many layers you added at the heel or toe, which can be a bother.

 

[hobber]

Just tried the same technique for stropping on pasted balsa. It's clearly better too. As the producer said during the South Park "Curse Words" episode: where is the roof on this thing?

I'll tell you what I'm not doing: I'm not remounting my hanging strops to be lower. But I might try, just once, standing on a step stool, just to see how that goes.

I'm feeling pretty resentful that no one told me about this until now.

My strops are still mounted mid chest level.

 

[Gamma]

The blade could be warped. The holder could also be warped. The stone might not be perfectly flat. Your pressure might be off.
Or, all of the above or a mix of the above.
I don't have one of these TI blades, but Rolls blades were not all that accurate and honing them successfully from a full bevel set up through finish can require a lot of work at the start to 'even out' the geometry. Chances are, blades like that were never intended to be on stones like we use to hone traditional straights. Seems like they were supposed to have a factory edge, then maintained on a pasted strop. In the case of the Rolls, that hone/stop system is sorely lacking. Not sure about this TI blade though. In any case, I would not expect it to be designed to be honed normally like we do with a regular straight. I could be wrong, it's just an assumption.
If the bevel set stone is proven to be flat - checked with a real straight edge and not assumed to be flat because you lapped off pencil grids, then I'd suspect blade/holder geometry. You can see it when you lie the blade on the flat stone - shine a light under it. A flat blade that meets the stone across the edge will not pass light. Sometimes a blade that is off can just be honed until the geometry comes 'in' nicely. Other times, creative strokes are needed. Hard to diagnose this from two pix.

Unless you are pressing on the middle of the blade with your fingers when honing, or something like that - I doubt your hand-held pressure is causing all of that uneven-ness. Honestly, while possible it would be very difficult to do that with just a slight bias. You do seem to have created some notable striations that crest over the shinogi line tho.and that pattern is actually biased to one side but it seems more like it might be from the holder's geometry. I'd sharpie the bevel and go at the 1k after it was proven to be flat just to see how even I was hitting the bevel.
Honing on a bench is fine, preferable IMO, since it causes the user to only deal with/control a single force vector. When trouble shooting, facing fewer variables is usually more desirable.

 

[hobber]

Honing on a bench is fine, preferable IMO, since it causes the user to only deal with/control a single force vector. When trouble shooting, facing fewer variables is usually more desirable.

Good point, however important and actionable feedback from the blade (arguably the single most important factor) on the stone may be missed due to the potential lack of feel with the hone on a bench (vs. hand-held). I have watched yours and Gary Haywood's vids on YT. I like both methods (and I especially LOVE that big fat awesome hybrid you have!), and obviously one is certainly not better than the other, assuming both methods produce good results. All I can say, Keith, is that when I hone in hand, it is like the feedback goes from so-so-I-think-it's-getting-sharper to flat-out "feedback overload" and truly stunning results...intentional...each and every blade. My "best" coticule honing results went from slight pull to simply wiping hair off my face once I stood up at the sink and put the stone in my hand. A truly remarkable difference.