Turning a Bakelite handle

[SliceOfLife]

I looked at the auction, wondered how in the world those dimensions weren't big enough. Looked at the picture and wondered how in the world he was getting those dimensions. Considered that maybe my understanding of the universe was flawed and there was some sort of fourth dimension he was measuring.

Then after a bit I realized that he was including the height of the tube in the measurement.

 

[Brownbear]

Brownbear, this is great info.

Another member and I are thinking about turning an antique Bocce ball into brush handles and from reading your comments, it might be bakelite.

And yes, it's very confusing. I hate to admit that I have been using the terms Bakelite & Catalin interchangeably, when what I really want is Catalin. I love the color shifts and swirls.

The pics are of the Bocce ball, described as:
Solid phenolic resin. About 4.5 inches across and 2lbs.

Would this be something to cause an asbestos worry ?

thanks again

Looks like bakelite to me, the brown color with its mottled look is pretty distinctive. And given that the object was designed to be bashed into other balls of the same density it likely has some sort of filler to strengthen it and prevent chipping. But as to whether that was asbestos or not, who knows? But asbestos was used quite liberally in the good old days for a variety of purposes you wouldn't necessarily expect. So I would say caution is required. Besides, if it is one of a set who wants to destroy a classic Bocce set, it's a fun game. A greek neighbor taught us when I was a little sprout.

For the other guys worried about their brushes. You don't need to remove the knot to test it for translucence. Just shine a flashlight on the bottom, put it against the base in a dark room and you will see immediately if it is translucent. I haven't seen a "bakelite" brush handle ever, but that doesn't mean there aren't any. But the classic butterscotch and colored catalin handles should be fine.

Might want to think about the translucence and its role in making these things look like jewelry before you get too enthusiastic about filling the hollow casting with washers or lead shot or other fillers to make it heavier. The hollowness is one of the things that makes them look the way they do.

In reference to whether there are any bad chemicals in them, you need to understand that both plastics are made out of formaldehyde and phenol, both of which fall into the really, really nasty industrial chemical category. The nazis exterminated people using phenol, which is also called carbolic acid. In their reacted state, for the brief time you touch them when shaving I am not worried a bit, but if you are sanding them a mask and sanding wet is a good idea. When sanded they give off the smell of formaldehyde, so there must be some unreacted product available to be mobilized. I wouldn't lose sleep over it, but common sense is in order.

I actually have more concerns with some of the stuff they used as adhesives. I wish I knew more about what they used and what was in it.

 

[Hex]

I looked at the auction, wondered how in the world those dimensions weren't big enough. Looked at the picture and wondered how in the world he was getting those dimensions. Considered that maybe my understanding of the universe was flawed and there was some sort of fourth dimension he was measuring.

Then after a bit I realized that he was including the height of the tube in the measurement.

Yep, that was confirmed in my request to return it. He measures what the packaging size would be.

 

[fidjit]

Can you section the slab then glue it together to give yiou a handle size chunk?
Wouldn't quite be the same but it is a pretty nice shade (though some of it might be lost when you turn it)

 

[mtsgsd]

I remember an episode of Antiques Roadhouse where they demonstrated that a hot wire applied to bakelite will smell like burning hair, but plastic and catalin won't. for what it's worth.

 

[Mack]

Looks like bakelite to me, the brown color with its mottled look is pretty distinctive. And given that the object was designed to be bashed into other balls of the same density it likely has some sort of filler to strengthen it and prevent chipping. But as to whether that was asbestos or not, who knows? But asbestos was used quite liberally in the good old days for a variety of purposes you wouldn't necessarily expect. So I would say caution is required. Besides, if it is one of a set who wants to destroy a classic Bocce set, it's a fun game. A greek neighbor taught us when I was a little sprout.

For the other guys worried about their brushes. You don't need to remove the knot to test it for translucence. Just shine a flashlight on the bottom, put it against the base in a dark room and you will see immediately if it is translucent. I haven't seen a "bakelite" brush handle ever, but that doesn't mean there aren't any. But the classic butterscotch and colored catalin handles should be fine.

Might want to think about the translucence and its role in making these things look like jewelry before you get too enthusiastic about filling the hollow casting with washers or lead shot or other fillers to make it heavier. The hollowness is one of the things that makes them look the way they do.

In reference to whether there are any bad chemicals in them, you need to understand that both plastics are made out of formaldehyde and phenol, both of which fall into the really, really nasty industrial chemical category. The nazis exterminated people using phenol, which is also called carbolic acid. In their reacted state, for the brief time you touch them when shaving I am not worried a bit, but if you are sanding them a mask and sanding wet is a good idea. When sanded they give off the smell of formaldehyde, so there must be some unreacted product available to be mobilized. I wouldn't lose sleep over it, but common sense is in order.

I actually have more concerns with some of the stuff they used as adhesives. I wish I knew more about what they used and what was in it.

Thanks Brownbear. That's very helpful.

 

[Brownbear]

I remember an episode of Antiques Roadhouse where they demonstrated that a hot wire applied to bakelite will smell like burning hair, but plastic and catalin won't. for what it's worth.

Catalin and bakelite smell the same. They won't melt and burn. They are thermosetting plastics. Neither smell like burning hair to me, but then I have a lot of years of smelling specimens preserved with formaldehyde starting from high school and on into my profession. Very distinctive smell, not pleasant. Did you ever dissect a cat in high school biology? Some of the protein based plastics seem more likely to smell like hair.

 

[Bestarrkin]

Catalin and bakelite smell the same. They won't melt and burn. They are thermosetting plastics. Neither smell like burning hair to me, but then I have a lot of years of smelling specimens preserved with formaldehyde starting from high school and on into my profession. Very distinctive smell, not pleasant. Did you ever dissect a cat in high school biology? Some of the protein based plastics seem more likely to smell like hair.

No, they don't. I have bakelite stick cases and catalin brush handles but only catalin handles smell like dentist office(my parents are dentists) under the hot water. However some of bakelite examples smell differently because of the fillers and not like catalin. On the other hand they are thermoset plastic which do not melt just burn. By the way I suspect one of my stick holders which contains asbestos and that one smells bad.

 

[Brownbear]

The fillers are pretty inert. If you heated the bakelite enough to burn say, fabric that was used as a filler, you might smell burned cotton, which doesn't smell like burned hair. But you would also smell the plastic burning. I've never gotten bakelite or catalin to burn with the pin test, but I suppose a big enough pin might do it. Asbestos would not have a smell.

But catalin and bakelite are almost identical chemically aside from the fillers, so they would smell the same. The outside finish can change the way they respond to hot water or various chemical tests. If they have been treated with polish or wax or so forth, you would smell the burning of that treatment. But the plastics are essentially the same. There is nothing in them that would smell like burning protein.

 

[Blue58]

I should also toss in the ring and say that everyone's perception of what something smells like will be different. For example I have almost no sense of smell at all so I would only smell the most pungent of smells whereas someone with very sensitive sense of smell would wrinkle their nose if someone lit a match 30 feet away.

Each person would also have a very different idea about what something smelled like to them due to different exposures to things throughout life. A person will use what they know and are most familiar with as a basis for their comparison so in the case of smell no one is wrong.

What is known here is that catalin and bakelite in their base forms are identical in makeup....

What is also known..... the major difference between the two is that bakelite used various fillers depending on what it was to be used for.

What else is known..... one of the fillers commonly used in bakelite was asbestos which is a natural formation...it is very fiborous and when disturbed will disintegrate into very fine hairlike fibers. Since asbestos is rock it does not burn, which is why is was used as fireproofing.

What else is known.... since almost any substance or combination of substances could be used as a filler in bakelite and we will never really know what those fillers might be in any given item it would probably be most practical to try and first identify if something is catalin or bakelite and second if it is bakelite we should try to avoid it since we don't know what fillers were in fact used in that product.

having said this.... I completely agree with everyone


Good luck with your projects whatever you make them out of.

 

[Gordon91]

Message to Gyronut. Please help me as you have worked in this field. I thought maybe you can help me get an insight on this matter. I used to have a ford 1938 prefect some time ago about 17 years ago. I sanded down the steering wheel/dash/window mouldings spending about 5-10 minutes with a sand paper. I was in a conversation with one of my friends and he told me I almost certainly have breathed in some asbestos fibers as he thinks it was made using asbestos. All I remember was white powder from it nothing else but is this true that it may have asbestos in it ? I am so awfully worried and I was hoping to get an answer. I though they used wood flour. If it did have asbestos was it mixed or put deep inside the bakelite. This was a UK version Ford and I was in the UK.
God bless you.

 

[Gordon91]

Lots of fillers were used in Bakelite, from clay to linen and asbestos. The basic material is a phenol/formaldehide resin and fillers were added to mke it less brittle. The asbestos filled material looks less smooth than the others. Things like handles for razors were probably filled with clay or wood flour, and should not be of any concern to users. I worked for several years in the Raw Materials Lab. at Bakelite in the UK.

I thought maybe you can help me get an insight on this matter. I used to have a ford 1938 prefect some time ago about 17 years ago. I sanded down the steering wheel/dash/window mouldings spending about 5-10 minutes with a sand paper. I was in a conversation with one of my friends and he told me I almost certainly have breathed in some asbestos fibers as he thinks it was made using asbestos. All I remember was white powder from it nothing else but is this true that it may have asbestos in it ? I am so awfully worried and I was hoping to get an answer. I though they used wood flour. If it did have asbestos was it mixed or put deep inside the bakelite. This was a UK version Ford and I was in the UK.
God bless you.

 

[Gordon91]

Lots of fillers were used in Bakelite, from clay to linen and asbestos. The basic material is a phenol/formaldehide resin and fillers were added to mke it less brittle. The asbestos filled material looks less smooth than the others. Things like handles for razors were probably filled with clay or wood flour, and should not be of any concern to users. I worked for several years in the Raw Materials Lab. at Bakelite in the UK.

I thought maybe you can help me get an insight on this matter. I used to have a ford 1938 prefect some time ago about 17 years ago. I sanded down the steering wheel/dash/window mouldings spending about 5-10 minutes with a sand paper. I was in a conversation with one of my friends and he told me I almost certainly have breathed in some asbestos fibers as he thinks it was made using asbestos. All I remember was white powder from it nothing else but is this true that it may have asbestos in it ? I am so awfully worried and I was hoping to get an answer. I though they used wood flour. If it did have asbestos was it mixed or put deep inside the bakelite. This was a UK version Ford and I was in the UK.
God bless you.

 

[Mr Bob]

Lot's of good discussion so far. I just wanted to reinforce the idea of dust protection when working with Bakelite. The dust will get everywhere, and depending on the filler, it can be a large health hazard. Gyronut pointed out that handles likely used clay or linen filler, which would make sense as that would improve machinability versus glass or asbestos. But, no matter the filler, there's still the phenol resin dust. Dust management will be key.

I remember an episode of Antiques Roadhouse where they demonstrated that a hot wire applied to bakelite will smell like burning hair, but plastic and catalin won't. for what it's worth.

Please excuse my presumption, but I believe you might have mixed up your materials. The hot pin test will help identify bone versus ivory, wherein the bone will smell like burning hair. I have never tried this with ivory, but it does work with bone.

 

[mgbbrown]

Hex; I've been restoring MG bits made of Bakelite for years, and I am still kicking! Cap inadvertently snapped a Gillette Black Tip's TTO knob in half during a restoration to reveal that the filler used in making the Bakelite knob was asbestos. Bakelite does oxidize with prolonged UV exposure, so the surface of the piece to be turned is probably lighter. God Bless! Tony Brown RN mgbbrown