Trying to hone a vintage Wade&Butcher, no success!

[marcobar]

Thank you pmaster and Doc,

The thread is a bit jumbled up, but in a previous post I mentioned that I now have a Bester 1000x to work with, so I think I will revisit it with that and make sure the bevel is absolutely correct before moving up.

Honestly, I've been using the pyramid method solely because it seems to be popular online, and it seemed to work reasonably well for me when I tried it on my newer blade. However, seeing as I haven't been too successful so far with this particular blade, maybe I'll try only moving up in grits.

Also, thanks for the tip about seeing the reflection in the bevel. I was a bit misguided about this, and always thought that shiny=sharp.

 

[pmaster]

I also remember using the pyramid "scheme" once or twice when I first honed. I quickly got tired of rinsing the stone and wiping off everything to prevent the grits of both sides getting mixed up. I also quickly realized that once I was done at a certain grit there was no need to go back to it!

For the reflection on the bevel, its a bit hard to put into words, but basically, the bevel should reflect light pretty evenly, and should fall off at the cutting edge. If it does not fall off at the cutting edge (i.e. there is a slight reflection going along the edge), then its probably not completely done. A lot of times, a part of the edge may reflect the light in such way while the rest doesn't. This means you should spend more time on that part of the blade.

Also you can use the marker test if you want to make sure you are hitting all of the edge when honing. Take a permanent marker, and mark the edge of the blade. Do a few laps on the hone, and it should remove it completely if you are touching all of the edge.

P.S. It doesn't look like an easy blade for a first hone, its a near wedge which often means more steal has to be removed, thus it takes longer, and also the blade possibly would benefit from some rolling strokes (often used on blades which have a smile, or have a frown that needs to be corrected).

Thank you pmaster and Doc,

The thread is a bit jumbled up, but in a previous post I mentioned that I now have a Bester 1000x to work with, so I think I will revisit it with that and make sure the bevel is absolutely correct before moving up.

Honestly, I've been using the pyramid method solely because it seems to be popular online, and it seemed to work reasonably well for me when I tried it on my newer blade. However, seeing as I haven't been too successful so far with this particular blade, maybe I'll try only moving up in grits.

Also, thanks for the tip about seeing the reflection in the bevel. I was a bit misguided about this, and always thought that shiny=sharp.

 

[bluesman 7]

Also, thanks for the tip about seeing the reflection in the bevel. I was a bit misguided about this, and always thought that shiny=sharp.

I think there is a misunderstanding here. If I'm not mistaken pmaster was talking about a reflection coming off of the very edge, showing evidence of a flat spot on the bevel, not the reflection off of the bevel.

 

[Tranqville]

Galaktus, what kind of uneven wear happens in the middle of the blade? Also, could you please comment on my thread http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showth...bevel-in-the-middle-of-the-blade-what-do-I-do

 

[Brooksie967]

Circles. I hate how that gets thrown around so much. They're really only beneficial (imo) if your honing a completely flat bevel with no smile or removing a frown. Anything with a smile circles will cause a frown unless you are extremely diligent to watch how the metal removal is progressing.

 

[marcobar]

Okay, so I think this will be the action plan, gathering together all of the advice put forward in the thread:

1. Abandon the pyramid honing, and do a straight progression of 1000 > 4000 > 8000, making sure I'm completely happy with it at every step of the way.
2. Avoid mixing things up with circles, and stick with consistent X-strokes.
3. Account for the smiling blade with rolling strokes, or at least ensure that the entire cutting edge makes contact throughout the hone using a marker/ink test.

 

[Galaktus]

Sounds like a plan. Make sure you try the marker test first, see how the different kinds of strokes wear metal off the edge. Mark the edge, do one kind of stroke, (circular, X) and see where the marker is rubbed off.
Patience and persistence, my friend.
Good luck, and keep us informed.

 

[pmaster]

Also, start looking for some chromium oxide or lapping film. Even though many report shaving fine off the 8k, why settle for "good enough". I personally saw a big improvement going from to the 1um lappping film after the naniwa 8k.

Happy honing!

 

[marcobar]

This is starting to get a bit frustrating now. So here's what I did with last night's hone:

• Started out rubbing a Sharpie across the cutting edge, and then did a few practice rolling X-strokes on the 1000x. After a few minutes, I settled on a technique which seemed to scrape the marker off evenly across the blade.
• Did that X-stroke for something between 50-100 passes, and it felt pretty sharp but not quite close to keen.
• I decided to try out the Nagura stone I grabbed alongside the 1000x hone, and built up a milky slurry on the stone, returned to honing.
• It seemed to be working pretty well! I got the blade to the point where it was taking hairs off my arm, but the bad news was that one side seemed to be sharper than the other.
• Returned to honing, and gave the duller side a few more passes than the other.
• Then, after a few more X-strokes, it seemed to cut hair off my arm evenly on both sides, so I felt like my job was done with the 1000x!

Now here's the worrying part. Next I moved on to the 4000x:

• I continued with my rolling X-stroke technique that I liked, and did about 50 passes on the 4k. I went to try it on my arm, and I was shocked to find out that it was actually duller than before. Now I'm worried that I managed to ruin my 4k somehow!
• I tried some more passes after that, just to see what would happen, but it didn't really seem to have any effect, so I gave up until I could make a new plan.

Does anyone know what might be going on? I'm at my wit's end trying to get this thing sharp.

 

[Brooksie967]

Not sure what the issue is with the 4k but is there a reason you're using slurry on a synthetic 1k?

 

[pmaster]

This is indeed very strange... Did you lap your 4k stone?

Maybe you went a little too strong on the rolling strokes?

 

[marcobar]

Brooksie: Honestly, it was just another thing to try since I haven't been having much luck so far. I was under the impression that it just made the stone shave of metal more efficiently, and couldn't really do much harm. If there's some reason why I shouldn't be using a slurry at that point, please let me know.

pmaster: I didn't lap the stone after purchasing, but I did do a bit of rubbing with the nagura stone to get some of the crap off of it from the last few hones it was used for before this bunch. I didn't think that would do any harm to it.

Anyways, I tried another series of hones today, this time with a single strip of tape along the spine. It actually seemed to help out quite a bit - I was able to set a nice sharp bevel with the 1k, and then when I went to the 4k I tried using WAY less pressure on the blade, and that seemed to work out pretty nicely, and it seemed to get sharper as i went. I finished off with the 8k, and let only the weight of the blade do the work.

Again, I'll have to wait until the morning to see if it holds up in an actual shave, but it passes the sharpness tests. It seems to be not quite as sharp as my Thiers-Issard, and I would like to look into getting some lapping film or diamond paste to really take it to the next level. Having just bought another hone I don't really want to shell out on a second strop and paste, so I'll probably go for the lapping film.

 

[Galaktus]

50 passes on a Norton 4k seems a few too much to me. Try it in batches of 5 strokes each way, then test.

 

[Brooksie967]

Marco,

Slurry on a synthetic stone tends to dull an edge. If you are using slurry to increase the cutting speed, you should use the same hone with water only strokes after to really max out what that stone can do.

I've only had less than favorable results when using synths with slurry. If it's not coarse/fast enough, get a coarser option.

You're moving in the right direction! Practice makes perfect and don't get frustrated with what you're doing! Good on you!

 

[marcobar]

Good point, Galaktus: one of the things I did this time around was to use a lot less passes at each level of the process. I still approached 50 or so, though, so if this still hasn't gotten it all the way, I will try again with less passes at each level.

Brooksie: ah, I see. I did wipe the stuff off and do some strokes with water after the slurry because it just kind of felt like a good idea, so it's good to know there is indeed logic behind. I didn't use any slurry at all this time around, so we'll see how it went.

 

[global_dev]

There's quite a bit if advice here and out there. Don't get overwhelmed. Stick to basics and take a deep breath. Learning to hone can be frustrating.

Always make sure your stones are flat after soaking them. Lots of honing, especially with slurry, could cause them to dish and affect your edge.

Take your time.

Are you using x-strokes or angled x-strokes to see scratch pattern changes ?

 

[marcobar]

Alright, finally some good news!

After last night's hone the blade was very nice and sharp, and held up surprisingly well in a shave test today. Even though it doesn't feel as sharp as my Thiers-Issard when pressed against the pad of the thumb, it shaves incredibly smoothly (almost smoother in some places than the newer blade).

Just for reference, here's what I did to finally get it going:

• I figured my trouble stemmed ultimately from not being able to match the century-old bevel on the thing, so I put a piece of electrical tape on the spine, then carried out the hone.
• Moved up from 1k > 4K > 8k without any pyramids, though I did use circles at the 1k stage. I know there's a lot of debate centred around them, but they're been working for me so far.
• I did about 40 passes on the 1k and 4k, and probably a bit less on the 8k, maybe 30 or so. The 1k was all done at a uniform pressure, the 4k was half pressed and half light, and the 8k was only the weight of the blade on the hone.
• I finished off with 30 passes on a leather strop, and then left it overnight before attempting the shave.

Eventually I'm going to look into getting some 1um and 0.5um lapping film to 'finish off' both of my blades, but right now I'm happy enough with both of them to shave and have a bit of a rotation, so I'm calling it a win.

Thanks very much to everyone who lent advice throughout the process!

 

[Gamma]

Great effort - Congrats!

Whatever works - works. Circles work fine when you work them correctly - same goes for any type of stroke.

 

[pmaster]

Very happy you worked things out! I'd say you didn't start with an easy one, but I'm sure that now your next ones will be go much easier.

If you want to try lapping film, just send me a PM and I'll mail you a slice of 1um so you can try and judge if you like it.

 

[marcobar]

Now I've realized that I went through this entire thread without even showing off the whole razor! Here's a picture of it before the honing process, just after I got all of the gunk and rust off. I also sanded down the scale to give it a bit of a sheen, and filled in some of the painted ornamentation that was missing: