Trouble honing an old Reynolds wedge

[joto]

Or near wedge, anyway. I picked it up off ebay a month or so ago, there is some pitting in the blade, but nothing I see that affects the cutting edge, at least to the naked eye. I'm using a norton 1k and a norton 4k/8k to hone, followed by the Ruprazor beginner's strop, crox then leather side.

Long story short, I am pretty new to honing, only a few razors, but I have successfully put a decent edge on a few blades now, when none of them would even shave arm hair. They all give good to decent shaves, but this Reynolds wedge has been a major PITA. I took another fleabay wedge (Joseph Wostenholm) in much worse shape (miserably failed the thumbnail test) and it is now the best shaver in the house- it even required the rolling X stroke. I'm not claiming to really know what I am doing, and I would like some advice.

Basically, I have been using the 1k to set the bevel then done a pyramid starting at 25 or 20 stroked on the 4/8k hone. This has produced good results in the past, but I'm having little luck now- I've done this twice now. To the naked eye and the thumbnail test, it feels and looks like the bevel has been set but it is shaving arm hair with difficulty, and shaves poorly, leaving a lot of uncut hair compared to my other razors. The Wostenholm was badly worn, and two pieces of electrical tape immediately produces results that hours of honing did not produce. When hours of no-and one-tape piece honing failed to show improvement on the Reynolds, I added a second piece and things improved marginally. Perhaps this is important, stropping on the crox side of the Filly strop showed more improvement than anything else, but not enough for a comfortable shave. There is a rolling X motion required for the smiling edge, but not severe.

Since I have honed a few other razors fairly well (even side-by-side while working on this one), I don't really know what to think. I would like to say my technique is not to blame since other razors and another wedge came out just fine, but there are always limitless possibilities that I ignorant of since I am fairly new. If I can't get this working, this knife may be recycled into a reed knife for me, which would be a shame because I do like it and I think it can be honed- at least I have seen no obvious barrier to it. Perhaps a third piece of tape? At what point does that become unproductive?

Here are a couple of pics, pre-honing, if it helps. The angle of the photos hide a LOT of surface blackness and some pitting, and the scales are different since I broke them accidentally de-pinning the razor to clean up an ocean of rust near the pivot hole.

Thanks in advance for any ideas. Yes, I am considering sending it out if I can't hone it here, but in the interests of learning through problem solving, I want to try as much as I can before sending it off.

 

[leighton]

You need a better test than the TNT alone on the 1k. It should be able to cut arm hairs with ease off the 1k. Another good test is the marker test. It makes sure the entire edge is being honed and there are no "missed spots". But your razor is cutting hairs so there is "some" edge to it at least. I recommend just sticking to the 1k until its cutting hairs pretty darn good. Then do the pyramid.

 

[joto]

The marker test was passed just fine, and several times, the 1k stone brought it to a certain 'sort of cutting arm hairs' point, but I noticed no improvement after that point no matter how much time (up to an hour or more) I spent on the 1k. The 1k definitely improved it and I could feel it improving the bevel, but 1k brought it to a certain point but no further. I took the lack of improvement to be a sign so move up on the hone, although I was skeptical for obvious reasons. I know it sounds wierd, and that is the confusing part for me- the other razors passed the arm hair test you suggested. I'll hit the 1k again later today or maybe over the weekend to give it another go. How long could I reasonably expect to spend on the 1k before seeing further improvement?

 

[leighton]

Ok, stop. Put down the razor. Go work on something else. Come back to it in a couple of days. Then let us know if the razors still giving you trouble.

 

[Ray-man]

Honing a wedge is one of the hardest to learn. They seem to respond differently than a regular 1/4, 1/2 or full hollow. My first wedge took me forever to get through, and it looks like yours will too. Last month I had 5 wedges sent to me for honing and each one was totally different than the other.

Leighton is correct in telling you to get that blade hair-popping sharp at the 1k level before you move on. I, in fact, have needed to start some wedges at the 325 grit level and move up. This just saved me time. Remember that wedges require a lot of edge to be removed, so it ill take longer if you start at too high a stone.

Keep at it and don't move off that 1k until it passes the hair-popping test.

Ray

 

[English]

Boy you do believe in throwing yourself in at the deep end.

Three layers of tape also works. Even four or five layers if it works for you.

I think that the rolling action is critical to success. I also think the spine should never touch the hone. That is why I think tape is essential.

In the old days, the tape was not used because it didn't exist. But there are no honing marks on the top of the blade. This means that they honed the blade with the spine not touching the hone.

Using CR OX is cheating. The razor should shave well before you need to smooth with CR OX. The razor should feel raspy sharp off the 1000 grit.

The trick is to refine the raspy edge without loosing it. Once the rasp has gone, so has the edge.

Don't be fooled, getting a smiling old Sheffield wedge to shave smoothly is very very difficult. The barbers who could do this pre 1900 would not share "the knowledge" and that is how they earned a living. It wasn't the shaving skill, but the sharpening skill.

To this day, there is no record that I am aware of of how they kept the razors shaving sharp.

 

[joto]

Boy you do believe in throwing yourself in at the deep end.

Never a better time to learn how to hone a wedge than right now!

At worst, I am building some good muscle memory. It'll pay off on future razors, even if I can never get this one working on my own. The honing itself is rather peaceful for me, so it's not like this whole process is making me angry or irritated, especially since I already have shave ready blades, at least in some way shape or form. It's actually very relaxing and a stress reliever. Whatever else I don't know about honing (a considerable amount), I quickly figured out I can't hone tense- it forced me to relax to get good results. Now it just happens as I do it. It's a wonderful combination of intense concentration and complete relaxation.

 

[zippo]

+1 A wedge is definitely not the easiest type of blade to hone but its not difficult either I was just wondering ,you mention the thumb nail test,when I was starting out that bloody test was the trap that I fell into ,I have since learned (years ago) that every time you preform the thumb nail test you dull or damage the edge ,as soon as I stopped using it the honing world opened up and bobs your uncle ,no more honing troubles ,I haven`t used this test for years.
put some tape on the spine don't use the thumb nail test and let me know how you go ,just a suggestion,from the looks you will require a very very slight rolling X stroke
Kind regards Peter
PS Excellent razor

 

[huracan]

That blade almost looks like it was never used before.

I have read that there may have been something like a thin clip that was attached to the spine of these wedge razors, similar to what you see on frame-backs, to aid in honing. I'm surprised to hear that non has ever popped up in somebody's state find or in one of the catalogs of the era.

 

[joto]

I did a lot more honing on the 1k with the two pieces of tape, but the edge seems to have hit a wall in terms of sharpness. It would barely cut arm hair, and that was that. I ended up using a third piece of tape on the spine, and that immediately made an improvement. It is now passing various tests as well as my other self honed blades. 20 -30 strokes per stone, more or less (and even that was probably too much), plus some strokes on the crox side of the Filly strop until improvement stopped. I was done in probably 20-30 carefully spent minutes. Now it's easily slicing arm hair well above skin level. The real test of course will be tomorrow's shave, but it already seems many times better- I'd be very surprised if it was not at least serviceable. I have high hopes. Incidentally, the amount of edge being cut (judging by the hone wear at the edge) went from probably about 1-1.5 mm hone wear with two pieces of tape to almost none at the very edge with three pieces. I guess I basically have a double bevel now. Some might call this cheating, but things got so much easier (and faster, although speed was not my goal- a sharp edge was) when I raised the spine enough that I was cutting very little metal at the edge. It may shorten the razor's life, but they weren't made to last forever, and it may outlast me anyway!! I'll post tomorrow to let everyone know how it shaves.

 

[joto]

Thanks for all the advice- the razor came out pretty well, at least by my newbie standards. Sharp and smooth- it's actually the smoothest of the razors I have. Mostly BBS in three directions (I'm not an ATG-er) on the cheeks and upper lip, less so on the chin and neck, but I don't really have the technique for that yet. It's not as sharp as a couple of the razors I had professionally honed by Ken Rupkalvis (nor are my other self-honed blades, he did a real nice job), but it certainly gets the job done.

I've got a couple old wedges sharpened up now, and I find myself using them more than their hollow ground brethren. I love their weight in the hand, and their appearance is more pleasing for some reason. Thanks for all the suggestions. I was a little leery about putting more tape on the spine, afraid I would raise the angle on the bevel beyond use for a razor, but the third piece of tape did the job. Just out of curiosity, does anyone have any idea when this was made? I'm assuming anytime from the 1830's through the 1900's sometime, but I really don't know enough about razor history to date it accurately. I can't even narrow it down to the proper century!

 

[chess1]

I did a lot more honing on the 1k with the two pieces of tape, but the edge seems to have hit a wall in terms of sharpness.

You didn't listen to English that is why.
please read his post and good luck. i am sure you will get there.
lastly why in the world if you want to learn you are using very nice blade for this purposes.
you need to have ebay junk and learn on them.
My advise will be stop and go learn on Junks then come back to this blade. hope this helps.

 

[Ray-man]

Before you ruin that blade I would be willing to help you out with it. Having a wedge that is super sharp to begin with will help you when you try to hone one that doesn't matter.

If you are interested, send me a pm and we can discuss it.

Ray

 

[GsSixgun]

That blade almost looks like it was never used before.

I have read that there may have been something like a thin clip that was attached to the spine of these wedge razors, similar to what you see on frame-backs, to aid in honing. I'm surprised to hear that non has ever popped up in somebody's state find or in one of the catalogs of the era.

Yes you did read that, Hoglahoo and I have been doing research on it for quite some time....


As to the OP and the wedge, edge hehehe that rhymes...

You have to work your way through all the old bevel(s) first, before you can put and edge on there..

When you got some response using a pasted strop that is because you were touching the old edge(s)

Using the multiple layers of tape or a honing (lifting the spine) bar will eliminate the trouble of honing out all those old bevels...

You could pull the razor back into line now much easier by staying on the 1k and honing with one less layer of tape as you go, until you are left with just one...

Then once you have it totally even and sharp you go back up in grit and finish the razor off...

Basically what you have right now is a 3 layer edge on top of a mess, and guess what?? it shaves and probably will for quite awhile... Me, that would drive my OCD over the "edge" and I would have to have it perfect and even... YMMV

 

[Ray-man]

Here is a picture of the issue with this blade.

View attachment 69814

This was pretty much an issue all the way down the blade, but not quite this bad.

After honing, this is what the same spot looked like.

View attachment 69815

This blade is now very very sharp. The work John did was just fine. I think the problem was he needed some lower stones to form the bevel with. I started this wedge out on a 325 grit and worked my up from there. Of course, this being a wedge, I used 1 piece of .007 tape on the spine all the way through the honing process.

Should make a good shaver now.

Ray

 

[joto]

Wow. What a difference . I bet this is is what all the blades I am shaving with are like. I'll have to pick up a coarser hone or two to fiddle around with some of the junkers I have lying around from local shops and the 'bay.

Just out of curiosity, what is the level of magnification on the photos? I can't begin to imagine how it could be done. I can't wait to try the razor now. I want to thank Ray publically for helping out a honing newbie- he really did me a solid on this razor. I'll post about the shave when it arrives, but judging on the pics it looks like it'll be night and day.

 

[leighton]

Assuming thats the same magnification, the problem is that you never set the bevel. You just honed above the edge. In fact, you can even see it in the first picture. You see that shiny portion at the edge? Ok, right above that, you see a clear delineation into the less shiny portion. That is a double bevel. But in this case its bad. What happened was that the actual angle of the edge was more obtuse, ie greater than the angle you were honing at. Consequently, you were not even close to touching the edge with abrasives. Aka, you weren't honing the edge, you were just honing the part above it.

What Ray did was set the bevel. You can see the bevel is uniform throughout. Its one level piece of steel. No shiny parts that progress into not so shiny parts. It is also thicker in width.

The chip there is existant in the original hone job because the edge was never touched at all. This is what I call restorative honing, requiring the creation of a new bevel, not a bevel reset as most people call it.

I highly doubt the blades you are shaving with are anything like the first picture for the reasons above stated. On all your other blades, the recess above the bevel is dramatic. Aka, your blades are hollow ground and therefore do not have the wedge problem. The wedge problem is pictured above. The bevel width is huge and you never really know if your actually touching the edge unless you know what to look for. As such, all your hollow ground blades are most certainly fine.

This is the reason why wedges cost more. And why they are a PITA to hone.

 

[coyotesx5]

Hello all...
Need some advice. It's been 4 - 5 months since I've honed my razors... a Dovo stainless MOP, a Bergischer Lowe, and a Bismarck . Over the last 10 years, I've used a series of Shapton stones...and a cheap 250/1000 old Japanese knife stone that I use on the 1000 side to set the bevel when needed (rare). Anyway, I suspect that even though I only hone a few times a year, I might have damaged my hones. I say this because even though I meticulously hone in this manner.. Grit numbers given:
4000>8000>Belgian coticule (~10-12k)>cream Shapton(~15K)>30K Shapton........ I use a video "microscope" to check the bevel as I go..and the serrations just keep getting finer and finer as expected. My shaves have been terrible. When I started out, the hones gave me a fantastic shave. With my tough beard, I typically strop a minimum of 100 times on linen, then 60 times on my Heirloom red latigo, then 60 on horsehide. But with the bad performance from (I think ) my hones, I've literally had to use a new fangled gillette a few times. I have lapped the hones with the finest grit I can find..cerium oxide (1800#) on the 30k and 15k with a resulting straight mirror finish! So my problem might be with the Norton or coticule. I could hone at each grit with 100 strokes and get nowhere (shaving will cut my face off). If I send some photos along of my hones and magnified bevel, would anyone here be willing to throw me a diagnosis? I don't own a diamond lapping stone...any suggestions about what I might need? Any ideas welcome and appreciated.

 

[English]

It sounds like the bevel isn't set initially and that the rest of your endevours are futile.

You will need to lap the norton and the coticule if you haven't already.

I find a mixed pack of grit wet and dry sand paper is just great. Lay it wet on a flat surface and away you go. 400 to 1000 grits are great.

Low grit hones are suspect to warping when they are left to dry out thoroughly.

As a result, if you hone irregularly ( I tend to be a bit like that), it is often best to be sure to always give the hones a quick lapping before use and after you have soaked them (if they require soaking).

I have had more honing problems from uneven hones surfaces then just about any other honing issue I see discussed on the forums.

Other than that, I can only think that you are perhaps overhoning your razors or applying too much pressure as you go from low grits to high grits.
The skill is to reduce the pressure as you progress.

If you feel the edge is not sitting flat, I have found on most hones that if you apply some liquid soap to the hones surface, it will suck the razor evenly onto the hone. You can them apply no pressure at all. The hone will apply its own sucking pressure. If you will excuse the language.

Hope that helps.

 

[leighton]

Hello all...
Need some advice. It's been 4 - 5 months since I've honed my razors... a Dovo stainless MOP, a Bergischer Lowe, and a Bismarck . Over the last 10 years, I've used a series of Shapton stones...and a cheap 250/1000 old Japanese knife stone that I use on the 1000 side to set the bevel when needed (rare). Anyway, I suspect that even though I only hone a few times a year, I might have damaged my hones. I say this because even though I meticulously hone in this manner.. Grit numbers given:
4000>8000>Belgian coticule (~10-12k)>cream Shapton(~15K)>30K Shapton........ I use a video "microscope" to check the bevel as I go..and the serrations just keep getting finer and finer as expected. My shaves have been terrible. When I started out, the hones gave me a fantastic shave. With my tough beard, I typically strop a minimum of 100 times on linen, then 60 times on my Heirloom red latigo, then 60 on horsehide. But with the bad performance from (I think ) my hones, I've literally had to use a new fangled gillette a few times. I have lapped the hones with the finest grit I can find..cerium oxide (1800#) on the 30k and 15k with a resulting straight mirror finish! So my problem might be with the Norton or coticule. I could hone at each grit with 100 strokes and get nowhere (shaving will cut my face off). If I send some photos along of my hones and magnified bevel, would anyone here be willing to throw me a diagnosis? I don't own a diamond lapping stone...any suggestions about what I might need? Any ideas welcome and appreciated.

Your in Scottsdale. Just swing by next week after I finish this paper.