Tried honing tonight..

[dankeeler128]

So, I picked up some lapping film, a marble tile from the Depot of Homes, and pulled out my straights. My Wapi just needed a touch up, but the Amboss & Mann and the Wester needed some real work. I've never hones anything before, so I figured I'd give it a shot.

Two things: first: I still don't know what I'm doing. Second: even though i dont know what I'm doing, they are definitely sharper. Third: apparently I still have a lot to learn about shave angles. A little more tilt, and they shave really smooth!

 

[Dick peck]

Keep at it. It's always evolving as you learn.

 

[eKretz]

On the shave angle front: start low with the spine near your face. Slowly raise a little after trying that and try again. Keep going until you hit the sweet spot. Remember, no downward pressure against your face. Just about the same as if you were trying to slide under the lather without touching your face.

 

[Slash McCoy]

Newbie Honing Compendium AKA "The Method".

 

[steveclarkus]

The Method is by far the easiest way to achieve a great edge with little experience. Skills are transferable should you want to use stones later. Personally, I’ve used The Method for months and see no reason for using anything else since it works extremely well.

 

[Twelvefret]

Lots of ways to skin a cat. I followed this video and got a packet of 3m non adhesive films off eBay for $27. Find a good used strop with a handle and you are in business. @steveclarkus can advise you on diamond paste/balsa strop if you want to go in that direction.

I've successfully hones ten eBay find vintage razors in various conditions and had good shaves with them all. It's easy and you can do it.

 

[dankeeler128]

OK, I'm struggling with honing. I thought I had it, but apparently not. Using the Method (I'm pretty sure I'm doing it the right way), I'm getting nowhere. How long should this process start? I am using lappoing film, starting with 30 micron film. I think I did close to 500 passes, and felt a little bit of a burr along the entire edge. I flipped the blade, did the other side, then started working my way down the films (15, 9, 3, 2, 1, then 1 with paper under it), doing 100 passes on each side. Tested it on my arm hair, and all the blade seems to do is brush the hair over. What am I doing wrong?!?!?! I feel like I'm going to run out of razor at this rate.

How long should this take? I feel like I've been at it for hours, just on this razor.

 

[Scarry Knight]

Portland Razor Co. // straight razors and strops handmade in Portland, OR. — Hone a Straight Razor

 

[Twelvefret]

I got slammed rather rudely on another forum for bringing up raising a burr while honing. Apparently raising a burr is what some do for sharpening knives. I started a thread asking about non burr raising and you might find the comments to that question interesting.
Non Burr Raising Honing Question

I am not sure I've ever felt a burr even though I would say I use the burr method. 500 laps on one side seems excessive.

Maybe take one razor as the sacrificial lamb and develop your own process to get to what you consider shave ready. No reason to do it on a cheap Chinese razor shaped object. Find a good one. Once you know what it take for your beard, you'll be set. I am doing the same on a very nice $7 razor I picked up a few weeks back.

 

[dankeeler128]

Thanks. I'll give it another shot tonight. I'm starting to get a little discouraged with this.

 

[Twelvefret]

Thanks. I'll give it another shot tonight. I'm starting to get a little discouraged with this.

If it were easy everyone would/could do it. I've got a lot to learn myself, but I am enjoying the process.

 

[Slash McCoy]

OK, I'm struggling with honing. I thought I had it, but apparently not. Using the Method (I'm pretty sure I'm doing it the right way), I'm getting nowhere. How long should this process start? I am using lappoing film, starting with 30 micron film. I think I did close to 500 passes, and felt a little bit of a burr along the entire edge. I flipped the blade, did the other side, then started working my way down the films (15, 9, 3, 2, 1, then 1 with paper under it), doing 100 passes on each side. Tested it on my arm hair, and all the blade seems to do is brush the hair over. What am I doing wrong?!?!?! I feel like I'm going to run out of razor at this rate.

How long should this take? I feel like I've been at it for hours, just on this razor.

Once you raised a burr on one side and then on the other, what did you do to hone the burr off? You raise both burrs to prove the bevel. Then you must hone it off. To do that, lighten up the pressure and either just do ordinary alternating laps, or else diminishing sets of one sided honing. Like 10 half laps on one side, then the other. Then 8, then 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, and then at one, you are back to alternating laps. Another 20 or so and you are done and the burr should be gone. Once you are finished raising the burr, your pressure should be rather light, certainly less than the weight of your hand. And you should be honing in hand, not on a bench.

Are you quite sure you had a good burr in the first place?

After setting the bevel your razor should shave arm hair easily. It should have plenty of grab when pulled across your thumbnail or thumb pad. It should slice cherry tomatoe quite handily. What you need to do at this stage is figure out if your bevel setting is at fault or the progression. If after setting the bevel, it will not pass those tests, the bevel is not set.

For some new razors, 500 circle strokes to raise a burr is nothing. Paint the bevel with a sharpie marker, both the edge bevel and the spine bevel. Give it two or three laps on your bevel setter. All ink should be removed at the edge. This tells you where you are and are not making contact with the honing surface.

Pics of razor?

 

[*stefan*]

@dankeeler128 , after creating a burr you usually want to remove it and then you can test if the razor shaves arm hair at skin level along the bevel.

This text is in Slash's description: "Once you have raised a burr on each side in turn, and balanced the laps, it is time to hone the burr off. I prefer to go straight to normal alternating laps for this".

When honing on one side the burr will be bent away and can be felt on the other side of the blade. Sometimes difficult to feel. Test with you nail, flip side of finger, change finger, use a toothpick, flip side of blade.

How long time does it take? Impossible to say actually.
Look at the hone wear before you start honing, both the spine and the bevel. See how it change during honing.
Does the hone scratching reach all way to the bevel? Do the bevel height increase? This will give you a clue what is going one. A loupe with light can be handy.

 

[dankeeler128]

Once you raised a burr on one side and then on the other, what did you do to hone the burr off? You raise both burrs to prove the bevel. Then you must hone it off. To do that, lighten up the pressure and either just do ordinary alternating laps, or else diminishing sets of one sided honing. Like 10 half laps on one side, then the other. Then 8, then 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, and then at one, you are back to alternating laps. Another 20 or so and you are done and the burr should be gone. Once you are finished raising the burr, your pressure should be rather light, certainly less than the weight of your hand. And you should be honing in hand, not on a bench.

Are you quite sure you had a good burr in the first place?

After setting the bevel your razor should shave arm hair easily. It should have plenty of grab when pulled across your thumbnail or thumb pad. It should slice cherry tomatoe quite handily. What you need to do at this stage is figure out if your bevel setting is at fault or the progression. If after setting the bevel, it will not pass those tests, the bevel is not set.

For some new razors, 500 circle strokes to raise a burr is nothing. Paint the bevel with a sharpie marker, both the edge bevel and the spine bevel. Give it two or three laps on your bevel setter. All ink should be removed at the edge. This tells you where you are and are not making contact with the honing surface.

Pics of razor?

It is the manganese in my first post here. The very bottom razor.

 

[Rugger007]

If you having issues remove the “burr” you can either very lightly drag the edge along the stone, a block of hard pressed felt or wood. This will clear the burr and you will be very surprised just how few laps are required to bring the edge back. You could also strop on a felt covered wood block loaded with CrOx, this will also clear the burr and allow you to carry on.
I completely disagree with Slash with regards to “you must hone in your hand”. Whether you hone in hand or on the bench is completely your call, so do what’s comfortable to you.

 

[Slash McCoy]

Thanks. I'll give it another shot tonight. I'm starting to get a little discouraged with this.

And this is the first razor you have tried to hone, right? I will assume so. Make sure that ANY TIME the edge of the razor is even NEAR the hone, whether it is stone or sandpaper or lapping film, the spine is solidly against the honing surface. The spine touches first. The spine lifts off the hone last, only after the edge. No matter what. The spine must never lift even the slightest bit while the edge is touching the hone. When doing alternating laps, i.e. edge leading, outward on one side, back toward you on the other, to switch direction at the end of the hone you must always flip the EDGE up and over, and never the spine. Follow these rules and you will seldom ever ruin your edge with elevated spine honing. This is extremely important. This is the only way to achieve the precise bevel necessary to get a shave ready edge.

A common newbie mistake is laying the hone on the workbench instead of holding it in hand. Often a newbie will try to "control" the razor by using both hands. Don't do that. Not while you are learning, anyway. Honing in hand allows you to regulate pressure and allows the blade and hone to find their own alignment. The hone should be held loosely, the arm not braced against the body or any object. Both hone and razor should be sort of floating in space in front of you. If you don't believe me on this, I can't help you. Nothing I can tell you will help, if you insist on bench honing or if you flip the spine instead of the edge.

Finally, make sure that the shoulder of the razor is not riding up on the hone. You may find that it helps to lead slightly with the heel of the razor.

So do the sharpie test and check the edge under a USB microscope or a very strong loupe. If any point along the edge is not hitting well, then your bevel is most definitely not fully set.

After re reading your post, I suspect maybe your bevel indeed was not set. You can hone forever and not have a good edge if the bevel is not set. The bevel IS the edge. The progression simply refines and smooths it. The geometry is courtesy of the heavy lifting done on the bevel setter. 30u film is quite adequate for bevel setting. And you don't want to stop when you have only a hint of a burr. You must feel a burr along the entire edge, if you want the entire edge to shave. Okay, maybe don't worry about the last 1/4" of the toe or heel too much. Another common mistake is using a rolling stroke on a mostly straight edge, just to get that last teensy weensy bit of toe sharp. Don't worry about it. But the entire edge, with possible exclusion of the very end at toe or heel, must have a good bevel before you run the progression. Otherwise, further efforts are doomed to failure. It is really quite simple. Good bevel, probably end up with good edge. Not good bevel, never in a million jillion gargantumagonzokazillion years will you ever get a good shave with that razor. Set that bevel. KNOW that it is set, before moving on.

It is okay to use some pressure when setting the bevel. A good rule of thumb is to use the weight of your arm but no additional pressure. After both burrs have been raised, gradually lighten to the weight of your hand or a bit less as you hone the burr away, and begin the progression. By the finish you should be down to the weight of the razor only. A very beefy blade like a Gold Dollar you can use a bit more. A full singing hollow with a delicate edge should get less. The average ordinary quarter to full hollow razor hones nicely with the pressure described.

Check the edge for sharpness as you go. At 1u you should have some treetopping when you sweep the razor over your forearm 1/4" above the skin. Skip the picopaper for now. Start with the most basic thing, the bevel. Then honing the burr away. Then the progression. Each step in turn, fully complete, before the next. The picopaper and pasted balsa and other post finish stuff can wait.

Oh, a vigorous stropping can be helpful, after setting the bevel and before starting the progression. It can be most helpful in removing artifacts from the apex.

 

[Twelvefret]

If you having issues remove the “burr” you can either very lightly drag the edge along the stone, a block of hard pressed felt or wood. This will clear the burr and you will be very surprised just how few laps are required to bring the edge back. You could also strop on a felt covered wood block loaded with CrOx, this will also clear the burr and allow you to carry on.
I completely disagree with Slash with regards to “you must hone in your hand”. Whether you hone in hand or on the bench is completely your call, so do what’s comfortable to you.

Just asking, do you think it necessary to raise a burr. I got blasted on another forum for mentioning raising a burr. This person said raising a burr is for knives. What's your experience?

To the OP's 500 laps, how would it be possible to do 500 laps and not set the bevel?

 

[Slash McCoy]

BTW bench honing is fine, once you have learned. Many seasoned honers bench hone. I suspect this is mostly an effort to justify the cost of all the expensive stone holders, sink bridges, and other such foofoo. Anyway many of them get decent results from bench honing so let them. A newbie often, or I should say usually, has trouble regulating and distributing pressure while keeping blade and hone in alignment. Honing in hand largely makes this all happen naturally. Bench honing will hold you back at this point. If that's okay with you, then by all means bench hone. Your razor. Your time. Your face.

 

[dankeeler128]

And this is the first razor you have tried to hone, right? I will assume so. Make sure that ANY TIME the edge of the razor is even NEAR the hone, whether it is stone or sandpaper or lapping film, the spine is solidly against the honing surface. The spine touches first. The spine lifts off the hone last, only after the edge. No matter what. The spine must never lift even the slightest bit while the edge is touching the hone. When doing alternating laps, i.e. edge leading, outward on one side, back toward you on the other, to switch direction at the end of the hone you must always flip the EDGE up and over, and never the spine. Follow these rules and you will seldom ever ruin your edge with elevated spine honing. This is extremely important. This is the only way to achieve the precise bevel necessary to get a shave ready edge.

A common newbie mistake is laying the hone on the workbench instead of holding it in hand. Often a newbie will try to "control" the razor by using both hands. Don't do that. Not while you are learning, anyway. Honing in hand allows you to regulate pressure and allows the blade and hone to find their own alignment. The hone should be held loosely, the arm not braced against the body or any object. Both hone and razor should be sort of floating in space in front of you. If you don't believe me on this, I can't help you. Nothing I can tell you will help, if you insist on bench honing or if you flip the spine instead of the edge.

Finally, make sure that the shoulder of the razor is not riding up on the hone. You may find that it helps to lead slightly with the heel of the razor.

So do the sharpie test and check the edge under a USB microscope or a very strong loupe. If any point along the edge is not hitting well, then your bevel is most definitely not fully set.

After re reading your post, I suspect maybe your bevel indeed was not set. You can hone forever and not have a good edge if the bevel is not set. The bevel IS the edge. The progression simply refines and smooths it. The geometry is courtesy of the heavy lifting done on the bevel setter. 30u film is quite adequate for bevel setting. And you don't want to stop when you have only a hint of a burr. You must feel a burr along the entire edge, if you want the entire edge to shave. Okay, maybe don't worry about the last 1/4" of the toe or heel too much. Another common mistake is using a rolling stroke on a mostly straight edge, just to get that last teensy weensy bit of toe sharp. Don't worry about it. But the entire edge, with possible exclusion of the very end at toe or heel, must have a good bevel before you run the progression. Otherwise, further efforts are doomed to failure. It is really quite simple. Good bevel, probably end up with good edge. Not good bevel, never in a million jillion gargantumagonzokazillion years will you ever get a good shave with that razor. Set that bevel. KNOW that it is set, before moving on.

It is okay to use some pressure when setting the bevel. A good rule of thumb is to use the weight of your arm but no additional pressure. After both burrs have been raised, gradually lighten to the weight of your hand or a bit less as you hone the burr away, and begin the progression. By the finish you should be down to the weight of the razor only. A very beefy blade like a Gold Dollar you can use a bit more. A full singing hollow with a delicate edge should get less. The average ordinary quarter to full hollow razor hones nicely with the pressure described.

Check the edge for sharpness as you go. At 1u you should have some treetopping when you sweep the razor over your forearm 1/4" above the skin. Skip the picopaper for now. Start with the most basic thing, the bevel. Then honing the burr away. Then the progression. Each step in turn, fully complete, before the next. The picopaper and pasted balsa and other post finish stuff can wait.

Oh, a vigorous stropping can be helpful, after setting the bevel and before starting the progression. It can be most helpful in removing artifacts from the apex.

Thanks for the info. I get what you are saying, and will definitely do what you suggest. I'm going to get some sleep, and, when I wake up, I'll read through this again, and give it another go.

 

[Mr.Tee]

Once you have a good bevel set, what ever method you use to get there, pay careful attention to what it feels like on your thumb, or how it behaves cutting arm hair. Some guys slice a grape or tomato. Point is teach, yourself how to recognize when your bevel is to that point, whatever way that is for you.

After that, its all cake.