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Translucent Arkie-first experience

One doesn't read much here about the arkies and my earliest impressions were that they were "ok" for knives, but not up to handling the demands of putting a fine edge on straights. These were my first impressions. Over the last six months, however, someone here and someone there would make a strongly favorable comment about the edges they were getting off their arkansas stone. Even using it as a finisher after a jnat which simply astonished me.


What I didn't understand was, if they were such fine finishers, why weren't more people using them? Where were the threads discussing the best places to buy them? More interestingly, how come they almost never show up on the BST? It was a puzzle, but I decided that if I found one cheap enough to take a risk on, then I'd do it. It was nearly 2 months before the opportunity presented itself, but a vintage one came up on another forum for 45 bucks shipped which is at the upper level of my "gamble on it limit". It was part of a lot the seller had purchased elsewhere and he said it improved the edges on his razors and didn't need lapping and so I bought it.


The arkie arrived and on first look it was promising. The box was in good shape and it appeared flat with a small bit chipped out of one corner. I'd read an earlier thread here on how monstrously difficult they could be to flatten and discussed with life2short1971 the possibility of sending it out to a lapidary to be flattened. In the end, it appeared close enough to flat for me to try and so I went at it. Fellas, this was one hard stone.


Here is the final finished product. Took at least an hour and a half to lap. Interestingly, I started really removing stone when I got up to 1500 grit. It ate the sandpaper like a labrador eats biscuits, but it was much faster than the lower grits.

View attachment 346598


And here's how it progressed in the lapping on 400 grit at 10/20/40 minutes. Note that the middle rather than the edges were the high spot. Pretty pleased about that.

View attachment 346599View attachment 346600View attachment 346601View attachment 346602

So now I had a flat translucent gem from Arkansas. Wasn't really sure what to do at this point, but again from the reading I understood them to be slow finishers and to use oil. Grabbed about a half dozen of my shave ready razors, mineral oil and the arkie.

I had no real idea what I was doing here. After the first half dozen, the results were so stunning, I grabbed another 6. Ended up doing a combination of circles and x strokes on a thin oil film. Sometimes the oil was very thick and so I honed longer letting the oil slowly accumulate on the blade and then wiped it off and honed it again. Generally it was about 2-3 minutes of honing.

Before and after honing each razor, I did an HHT. In every case, it improved the edge and this was before stropping. Much of this is subjective, heck, nearly all of it is, but I did this multiple times with at least a dozen razors and to my eye the difference was unmistakeable. FWIW, my daughter gave me a cutting from her long locks for Father's Day so the hair was from a single clump from one person. They're not uniform, but I've gotten good enough that I can choose strands pretty close in thickness just from their feel and color. This contributes somewhat to the uniformity of the experiment though tester bias is unavoidable.

It was such an astonishing and easy improvement on already sharp edges, that even now I can't help but wonder what I'm missing. Where's the downside? I shaved with one of the razors, the Bartmann, this afternoon and it was an excellent shave. Nothing magical, no unicorn poop in my lather or pixie dust in my whiskers, but a smooth, irritation free shave from the second straight I've ever owned that was in some need of keening. The next step, suggested by Gamma, is to use it on my sharpest jnat edges and see what that does. Allegedly, this is where the arkie really earns its keep.

I'm getting ready to leave for a week on the road with my son and so there'll be no more honing for a while, but I'll be thinking about why such an excellent stone gets so little love here and/or what I may be missing in this equation. This may be early stage enthusiasm and so I'd be interested in the experience of others.
 
Amen. They can make some stupid-sharp edges. The key drawbacks: they are slow, they are unforgiving for a mistake in the flip, and some people just dont like using oil. I earlier today ordered a set of three (soft, hard, black) 6x2's in wooden box plus oil for less than 50 bucks shipped (!) that will complement my surgical black nicely. (I think the "black" in the set is not a "surgical black").

Maybe people are turned off by their supposed grit rating too. Finishing on a 1400 grit stone sounds just wrong, but works like a charm because of the mechanism of how the stones do their work.
Another bit: they arent a 1-stone honing solution like a coti can be.
Another: they are cheap, so how can they be good?
Another: they aren't "foreign" (for USA'ers), so lack that mistique.
 
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Kentos

B&B's Dr. Doolittle.
Staff member
For some reason this thread has aroused long dormant feelings of HAD. That translucent just looks gorgeous
 
Another: they are cheap, so how can they be good?


Not any more. The really good, really old yellow/translucent "Hards" from 70+ years ago are selling for crazy amounts these days when they come up. I saw a slightly more yellow version of my exact stone (norton wood boxed 6x2x1) sell for $250 a few months back. A few years ago it'd have gone for $50-75. Heck I've even seen a few of the tiny little 4x1x0.25 penknives push close to $100. People are starting to catch on to just HOW different the vintage translucents were from the modern ones. And that yellow that I've thought for years was the hint at a really good stone, has gotten quite a fan club. Guys with too much money for me to compete with them.
 
Not any more. The really good, really old yellow/translucent "Hards" from 70+ years ago are selling for crazy amounts these days when they come up. I saw a slightly more yellow version of my exact stone (norton wood boxed 6x2x1) sell for $250 a few months back. A few years ago it'd have gone for $50-75. Heck I've even seen a few of the tiny little 4x1x0.25 penknives push close to $100. People are starting to catch on to just HOW different the vintage translucents were from the modern ones. And that yellow that I've thought for years was the hint at a really good stone, has gotten quite a fan club. Guys with too much money for me to compete with them.

Do you have a picture of what you mean by "old yellow"?
 
Sure:

First off: about the price... http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-PIK...065008?pt=US_Knives_Tools&hash=item3f25cbfc30

And THIS is one of the old "yellow" ones. I wanted this rock so bad, but wasn't paying that price.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Pik...D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557


That's a good example, but you can find even older, deeper yellow ones (usually 1x4 or 2x3" or slightly bigger in jewelers/watchmaker/dentists preen boxes) that must bee 100-200 years old on occasion.
 
Is the yellowing a function of age or use? In other words, if the stone is unused for a hundred years, does it get yellow or is the color change a result of years of oiling?
 
It appears to be natural, every once in awhile you'll see a new one with some streaks of the yellowed translucent in there. And Trans arks are known to vary in shade from greys, to yellows, to pinks, and on.
Also, in almost all I've seen it is nearly uniform around the entire stone, with dark patches caused by oil on the surface of the stone. Arks are porous of course, but not nearly to the extent that a 2x1" thick stone would ever be completely and uniformly saturated.
If there is also yellowing caused by oil, it's likely a sign of age too, being some oil (sperm oil perhaps) that hasn't been used in ages. Oil buildup on every stone I've had from the past hundred or so years does not cause any yellowing effect on translucent stones. More of a grey, or black depending on how heavy and close to the surface it is. Now perhaps soaking in clean oil without use could cause this coloring effect, but the color appears on stones still mounted in original boxes, so that's not likely.

The absolute answer I suppose would be to take a few and boil them in turpentine then lap them good, but I'm not about to do that. I'm content knowing that natural or not, this effect only seems to appear on the older stones, and they have thus far been to the last, superior to the more pearl-hued translucents.
 
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Never understood the yellowing - the old geological studies referenced those Arks as being nearly pure white.
I used to think it was some kind of oxidation or something, but never really looked into it.
I would love to get a vintage Translucent someday.
 
Never understood the yellowing - the old geological studies referenced those Arks as being nearly pure white.
I used to think it was some kind of oxidation or something, but never really looked into it.
I would love to get a vintage Translucent someday.

I am staying at a friends house this week on the RI shore and one of his other friends staying at the house next door is a geologist at Amherst College. I asked him about this and he said that very few rocks change color over time but that some will. He cited sun irradiation and oxidation (primarily affecting stones with iron in them) as two sources. He said more, but the most excellent Chianti Riserva we had drowned out the specifics.

We also talked about lapping. They have their own machine with diamond slurry that polishes slices to a perfectly smooth, flat 30 micron slice. I know where to send my next arkie.
 
Yeah - some stones do Go through a color shift - For example, La Grosse Blanch Coticules change color from exposure to sunlight.
The Arks could have come out of the ground that way though - its always been a little mystery to me.

I used to have two lap tables and a stone cutting table too - wish I had kept them.
Would have made lapping hones a breeze.
 
There was a great thread on the other forum.... barf.... but it had awesome pictures of the translucent stones that were brought to Germany for sale there.

The following pictures show Arkansas stones from the remainder of stock of the “Deutsche Schleifmittel AG” in Sonneberg, formerly Bösenberg, Trinks & Co (BT&Co) and Pike & Escher which was a follow-up of the Escher Company. The company existed until 1963.
Just for the dimensions I have added a small 6’’ Escher waterstone in the following picture

View attachment 347643View attachment 347644View attachment 347645

This is one of the 'bluish grey' stones that is in fact still translucent
View attachment 347646

And a white one: View attachment 347647
 
i believe the yellowing is oil soaked in the stone.

Probably is - I never figured it out though. Sometimes the yellow doesn't seem 'added' to the equation.
Other times it does seem too splotchy to not be the result of oil or whatever.
 
Love the Arkansas stones, although mine are Dan's current production, with one vintage 2" x 5" amber-orange translucent. The minute I tried them (with oil), I was hooked. With a soft, hard, black progression (2-1/2" x 10" x 1/2"), I have lapped these to 220x, 320x, and 400x respectively, letting the knives and razors to the rest of the smoothing. More recently, I bought a small set of 1-5/8" x 4" of soft, hard, true hard (translucent), and black stones for travelling. I had heard that out of the box, the stones might act differently than they would when smoothed; so after determining that the stones were reasonably flat, I decided to try them as received with a practice razor. It was like watching a gerbil race, with the true hard cutting more aggressively than the hard and so on. In any case, given the small surface area involved, I figured the surfaces would smooth over fairly quickly. Still not there yet, but it's been fun watching the race.

One thing I would like to do is arrive at a two-step progression with the soft and black stones. When the soft Ark glazes over with swarf, it becomes smoother, diminishing its cutting ability, so by keeping one side of the stone freshly lapped to 220x and the other slightly glazed, it might be possible to bypass the hard stone. Problem here would be with the dishing of the soft glazed side prior to the black Ark (which allegedly is very hard to dish and thus would remain flatter). To circumvent this, perhaps a freshly lapped (220x ) soft side to a freshly lapped (400x) black side to a smoothed black side progression might work. Here we would be talking lapping just to remove swarf, rather than flattening.
 
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