Touch-ups with diamond or CBN in between shaves?

[wquiles]

3 days ago I had a GREAT shave, perhaps one of my best, and it was almost as good as my Feather & KAI Mild Guard blade combo, but without the razor burn I get from the Feather/KAI blades. I achieved that by putting a single layer of black tape (Super 88) on my lowly Gold Dollar, and used lapping film from 30, to 12, to 5, and finally 3u. I then used my Spyderco Ultra Fine 8x3 stone, with the 0.125 CNB spray as slurry, and slowly diluted that with plain water. I then did like 20-30 laps on leather with 0.5CrO dry paste, and finally used my used/old black latigo leather with the 0.125 CNB on it, for like 10-15 passes. Then finally stropped in my Tony Miller plain cotton strop (like 30-40 times) and then finished with about 40-50 laps on my Tony Miller plain leather strop (I of course cleaned the blade in between these steps as to not contaminate my nice TM strop!). The two-pass shave was awesome (a very nice DFS, which is my goal), with zero razor burn - it was a revelation for me as to how good a str8 edge shave can be!

On the second shave the following day (yesterday), the razor was still sharp, but not nearly at the same level as the first time. I am thinking that 10 passes on the black latigo leather with .125 CNB might work to keep the edge perfect in between shaves.

Does anyone else does a little bit of diamond/CNB touch up in between shaves?

 

[global_dev]

does the UF grit mess with the .125u cnb?

 

[wquiles]

I am still learning/trying this combo, I would imagine that would be a yes. I am also hoping that the CNB can help "slowly" lap the surface of the UF stone as it gets used more and more.

 

[global_dev]

I am still learning/trying this combo, I would imagine that would be a yes. I am also hoping that the CNB can help "slowly" lap the surface of the UF stone as it gets used more and more.

based on the info about lapping a UF, that might be accomplished in the next millenia

 

[wquiles]

Agreed - mostly wishful thinking on my part

After the DMT 1200 I use lapping film, but the 1u and 1u with paper under it has not been really consistent for me, and since I had the Spyderco UF stone, I am just having fun experimenting with the finishing part of honing.

 

[Brooksie967]

Just my opinion but that's a heck of a lot of work.... some of it seems counterproductive. I literally just shared this in another thread but it's absolutely applicable.

Since then I've stopped using treated strops as my ability to produce edges off natural stones, mainly my coti, vintage thuri and two jnats, has greatly increased.

 

[Kentos]

Just my opinion but that's a heck of a lot of work.... some of it seems counterproductive. I literally just shared this in another thread but it's absolutely applicable.

Since then I've stopped using treated strops as my ability to produce edges off natural stones, mainly my coti, vintage thuri and two jnats, has greatly increased.

It's not so bad. After I was done experimenting I have got it down to 5 laps on .1 CBN and 5 laps on .05 poly diamond on hanging leather. This takes me from HHT2 prestrop to root in silent HHTs, and a smooth comfortable zero pull shave. Everyone is different of course, but doing 50 laps of negative pressure passes under running water is a lot more work than 10 laps on my strops.

For myself maxing out the blade on the stone is less of a concern, but getting that edge just where i want to is of great concern. We have a lot of guys on here who live to get that last bit off of their stones, I didn't have the same determination.

And for the record my progression is Botan, Tenjyo, Mejiro, Koma, Tomo, and then 10 laps on the strops. Water only laps don't do much for me.

 

[wquiles]

These last 4-5 days I have settled on this "process", which is working really nice for me after every shave:
- 5 passes on linen (basically to clean the edge from any leftover debris after shaving)
- 10 passes on the 2" wide black latigo leather with 0.125u CBN
- 10 passes on the cotton side of my TM 3" strop
- 30 passes on the smooth leather side of my TM 3" strop

I would imagine that at some point I will have to go back to the stone, but for now this makes every shave very nice, sharp, and with no razor burn.

 

[Brooksie967]

Not sure why you'd use linen to clean the debris from shaving, why not wash it and use a piece of toilet paper/kleenex?
I also don't see any point in doing the CBN and then the cotton and leather as .125 micron cbn is going to be much finer than either of those... seems counterproductive.

 

[wquiles]

Not sure why you'd use linen to clean the debris from shaving, why not wash it and use a piece of toilet paper/kleenex?
I also don't see any point in doing the CBN and then the cotton and leather as .125 micron cbn is going to be much finer than either of those... seems counterproductive.

Opps, I should have clarified that the linen was after washing, rinsing it, and wiping lightly with a soft towel to dry.

 

[Kentos]

How do you figure .125 CBN is finer than clean cotton and leather, since cotton and leather have no abrasive effect on the metal, while the CBN does? ( in my opinion of course )

 

[Brooksie967]

How do you figure .125 CBN is finer than clean cotton and leather, since cotton and leather have no abrasive effect on the metal, while the CBN does? ( in my opinion of course )

You're assuming that the strop is kept in an absolutely clean environment with no possibility of contamination which includes dust, etc.

 

[Kentos]

You're assuming that the strop is kept in an absolutely clean environment with no possibility of contamination which includes dust, etc.

So a clean leather strop has abrasive properties from dust that make it more abrasive than spraying it with CBN which itself approaches the hardness of diamond? We will have to agree to disagree on this one because stropping on .1 CBN has a definite effect on the edge that I cannot be duplicate by stropping only on clean leather.

 

[BDF]

Well maybe the people upstairs from your Grandmama's condo use a lot of diamond dust and a small but significant amount of it is leaking through the tiny air passages between levels and everything in your Grandmama's condo is covered with a small but effective amount of 0.1 micron diamond dust? If that were the case then you could not and may not ever use truly pure leather; everything you touch is lightly contaminated with diamond dust. ? When you grind your teeth together, do they get smaller? If you try to clean your widows until they squeak do they just disappear instead? Are the brake and throttle pedals in your car worn down unusually far?



Brian

So a clean leather strop has abrasive properties from dust that make it more abrasive than spraying it with CBN which itself approaches the hardness of diamond? We will have to agree to disagree on this one because stropping on .1 CBN has a definite effect on the edge that I cannot be duplicate by stropping only on clean leather.

 

[Brooksie967]

Balsa and leather, regardless of type of leather, clearly have particles that are larger than .1 micron abrasive contains. If you're using the proper stropping media with the treatment applied you won't have the same issue. The hardness of the treatment isn't the issue here, it's the size of the particles and the ability for it to affect steel.

The effect that .1 cbn has on the edge is absolutely noticable and you're right, leather alone won't be able to do that for you.

I also don't believe that going directly from finisher to linen to .1 cbn is all that productive either. That's like saying go from your 1k stone to your 12kish finisher and expect it to be shave ready. That's why we have progressively increasing grits that we use. The same applied to strop treatments. Effectively if you're going to go to a .125 paste you should probably start with CrOx then move to CeOx (cerium oxide) then to a .5 CBN and finally .125/.1 CBN.

There are lots of guys that have used these treatments for years and found no degredation to quality of edge or convexing (boathulling) of the bevel that would negatively effect shaving. In fact, some users purposely OVER used these treatments to purposely attempt to degrade the edge and were unable to do so.

 

[memnochlv]

Well maybe the people upstairs from your Grandmama's condo use a lot of diamond dust and a small but significant amount of it is leaking through the tiny air passages between levels and everything in your Grandmama's condo is covered with a small but effective amount of 0.1 micron diamond dust? If that were the case then you could not and may not ever use truly pure leather; everything you touch is lightly contaminated with diamond dust. ? When you grind your teeth together, do they get smaller? If you try to clean your widows until they squeak do they just disappear instead? Are the brake and throttle pedals in your car worn down unusually far?



Brian

+1 ROFLMAO. the teeth bit actually made me think of Gollum in LotR as well as many tribes who sharpen their teeth to points...

 

[Kentos]

Balsa and leather, regardless of type of leather, clearly have particles that are larger than .1 micron abrasive contains. If you're using the proper stropping media with the treatment applied you won't have the same issue. The hardness of the treatment isn't the issue here, it's the size of the particles and the ability for it to affect steel.

The effect that .1 cbn has on the edge is absolutely noticable and you're right, leather alone won't be able to do that for you.

I also don't believe that going directly from finisher to linen to .1 cbn is all that productive either. That's like saying go from your 1k stone to your 12kish finisher and expect it to be shave ready. That's why we have progressively increasing grits that we use. The same applied to strop treatments. Effectively if you're going to go to a .125 paste you should probably start with CrOx then move to CeOx (cerium oxide) then to a .5 CBN and finally .125/.1 CBN.

There are lots of guys that have used these treatments for years and found no degredation to quality of edge or convexing (boathulling) of the bevel that would negatively effect shaving. In fact, some users purposely OVER used these treatments to purposely attempt to degrade the edge and were unable to do so.

I agree with you, except the issue of particle size vs. substrate hardness wasn't an issue for me until I got down to .025 poly on leather and balsa. At that point I saw no benefit of the .025. Others have seen a benefit when used on a substrate with a supposed 0 abrasive effect on steel. I never got into that tho.