Top 3 Coticule Layers

[hobber]

There is much discussion about coticule layers here on the forum, for which I am grateful for the open share of quite accurate and useful information. I have learned so much over the years, and without this resource, I believe that I would still be in the dark in many respects on the topic of coticules.

I have tried many of the layers for sharpening of my straight razors, but have come to the conclusion that there are really 3 awesome layers that I should have focused more attention on in the beginning of my coticule journey. This would have saved me some heartache and grief, not to mention $100's of dollars. So, what have I discovered after many, many hours honing on coticules?

In no particular order, I have found the most efficient layers (speed under thick to thin slurry and water) to be --> Les Latneuse (LL), La Veinette (LV), and La Petite Blanche (LPB). In fact these three are so good, that I pretty much ignore the other stones at my bench, relegating them to "finicky" status and not worth the time. I kinda feel guilty about that because ALL of them can and have produced phenomenal edges. Even though the methods on each of the stones is slightly different, all three can take a nasty or even a damaged edge on any razor of just about any quality from bevel set to mirror edge in a little less than 10 minutes. Don't get me wrong, I love the honing process and have the time to do it (like, if I wanted to use another layer not named above), but from an efficiency standpoint, I haven't found any other layers that can compete with my LL's, LV's, and my one LPB. Here is a pic of my top 3 which I use ALL THE TIME. They are simply wonderful stones! Left to right groups are LL, LV, and finally my only LPB.

 

[hatzicho]

I personally found in general that the Les Latneuse is a to inconsistent layer for use of honing straight razors. There are very good ones but also some with quartz inclusions that could easily be harmful in razor honing.
I would agree to the other two mentioned layers, the La Veinette and the Petit Blanche. I would add the La Dressante as third one. The Dressante is a layer that was often used by razor grinders (though most of them prefer the "Old Rock" = LaVeinette) and also barbers.
Regards Peter

 

[hobber]

Peter, yes sir on the LL. The good ones are plentiful though. You mentioned LD. The LD I have (oversized #10 bout) does great up to the point of finish polish. Doggie slow under water. Like, 20 minutes to get close to what I can otherwise get on LL, LV, or LPB in a few minutes. The LL hybrid side finishes faster that I can hardly believe. Really fast! I might as well use a piece of plastic to finish on LD, if you get what I mean. I like the moderate feedback that LD gives, but the time under water is really a drag, almost off-putting to the honing experience. I normally used a 2-stone progression if using LD. La Verte is a better finisher IMO.

 

[PaulMallorca]

Got only "vintage" coticules, boot sale findings. Sadly is almost imposible to know what vein they come from.

Only hybrid would be easy to identify, but no luck so far.

For a while I was happy to say my green coticule was a la verte, but it doesnt match any description.

Some I use because they are fast, others are just very cool. No matter, I haven't shaved from a coticule in a long time. I use at least two more stones.

 

[David]

I personally found in general that the Les Latneuse is a to inconsistent layer for use of honing straight razors.

How many have you tried? Were they legit Les Lats from Ardennes?

 

[Basil]

My favourite layer is le petite Blanche. I found it a good layer for start to finish work. I also have a grease Blanche what is great at just a finisher.

 

[David]

I'll go along with your top three (LV, LL, and LPB) but I would also add Dressante to the list. I have three LD bouts from the golden age that easily give up super great edges. The pink LD's and the pale hard LD's with manganese can be really really good. Gotta love a good LV-super hard and blazing fast on slurry but then slows down to a snail on water to put on a great finish. LL's are special stones IMO because of how hard and fine the hybrid sides are. I've owned 12-14 from Ardennes and have never had one do any damage to the edge, but maybe I just got lucky. LPB's are just flat out fun to hone on because the feedback is generally a little softer and they have great speed. I love them all too much to pick a favorite but I wouldn't be without one from the above mentioned layers. My descriptions are from my personal experience and are not intended to label each layer as a whole.

 

[David]

I'll add that some prep work may be required to get the hybrid side of the LL's in good working order. It can be a pain but when done correctly they last a long time with very low maintenance.

 

[musicman980]

The layers that have a creamy surface and lack of an overall pattern as opposed to a woodgrain pattern are the more luxurious layers I find. They would be LV, LPB, LD, LL.

 

[RobbyC]

I’ve only had a few stones from ardennes but my ardennes Les lat is the fastest coti I’ve ever owned, my veinette is a good finisher but I’ve got much much better stones for finishing.

The stones I’ve had which appear to be big vintage dressantes (twin layer stones) have all Been excellent, though they’re vintage so it’s guesswork to the layer in reality.

It depends what you’re judging them on, I have a couple of stones which appear to be vintage LPB, with a blue layer in the coti layer close to the transition which are excellent stones, fast and extremely fine in my experience, but the one I use regularly is for pre finish work.

Most of my best razor finishers are the super homogenous pure creamy surface stones of above average hardness, but I’ve got about 20 cotis of all appearances that I am more than happy to shave off.

Coticules layers are too variable to say that only x,y and z are worth using.

My best coticule ever was a LGB which was only 1.5mm thick maybe when I got it and lapped it, and I sold it when it was slightly under 1mm thick, wish I hadn’t.

As a side note, I’ve owned probably close to 100 Thuris and I’ve had 2 which weren’t suitable for razors due to inclusions (large pyrite inclusions in both cases)

I’ve owned well over 100 cotis and there’s only 30 or so I’d use for razor finishing personally

 

[hobber]

i should put up a pic of the absolute WORST stone i own. it happens to be the largest (8"x3")btw. it is a la veine aux clous and it is absolutely a P. O. S! it is soft, it's hard to keep flat, and i have NEVER gotten a good edge from it. total garbage stone! i hope AC never gets the urge to exploit these. i got it from a guy in TN who never had any luck with it. feeling confident in my abilities with cots, i thought i'd give it a go. it sits untouched and will be forever hated. it's not even good enough to be cut up and used for slurry stones because they would be too soft...almost chalk-like.

 

[hobber]

i received a message requesting pics of my la veine aux clous (the worst coticule i have ever honed [rather, NOT honed anything to sharpness on]). here you go, folks! smooth as baby's skin and couldn't even sharpen a pencil.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Modern stones? La Veinette and Les Lat.

Vintage? Les Lat, Brown hybrid/Deep Rock/La Rose (Maybe Les Lat too?), That yellow one with the freckled brown layer between it and the BBW, La Grosse Blanche, The very hard/waxy brown layer.

 

[hatzicho]

I'll add that some prep work may be required to get the hybrid side of the LL's in good working order. It can be a pain but when done correctly they last a long time with very low maintenance.

Yes David, I had the chance to try quite a lot of them. I had the possibility to try Henks examples about ten years ago and tested quite a lot of them during my visits of Ardennes and the discussions with Maurice.

It is interesting that a lot of users here put the Petit blanche so close to the LaVeinette. And indeed these two layers are very close in quality, especially in the amount and size of the grenats. Grogna (Les roches salmiennes a coticule dans la region de Salmchateau, 1984) made a lot of chemical and petrografic analysis on the different coticule layers and put LaVeinette and Petit Blanche on the same level of quality.

Regards Peter

 

[Legion]

I have had three LPB, I still have one, and am a fan of that layer for the first 90% of the honing. Getting the last 10% is a little more challenging. It can totally be done, but you have to finesse it. Eventually I bought a LV, did the last 10% on that, and saved myself a lot of effort.

 

[hatzicho]

Ah sorry the above embedded chart was not the one I would really like to show. It only has the predicted quality of the coticule layers as useful information.

Much more intersting is the following diagram. The chart itself as well as all data and terms I added to make it more clear is from Grogna. You can see the garnet content of the different layers on the left scale. Added are the grain size of garnets (max) in red color, the quarry and the layer names.

You can see how close the Petit Blanche is to the LaVeinette in both, volume and size of grenats.

Actually I prepared this diagram a while ago for a discussion we had on the slight differences in quality of the blue belgian stones.

Not an issue here but might be interesting also for someone. So in the diagram you can also see the garnet volume and size of the blue belgian layers (phyllade) that are found next to the relevant coticule layer. Therefore the differences in quality of the blue layers. Might be interesting if you have natural combination coticules.

Regards Peter

 

[GreazyThumbs]

Any recommendations for best use on a Le Grosse Jaune, my stone is hard does not auto slurry but I have not been able to figure this layer out...

 

[cugel]

Now I want a new coticule...half joking

 

[rideon66]

I find this hard to quantify as it depends on what type of edge you are going for. For those that complain a coti won't make a sharp enough edge.
I have to say a good La Verte can make a beautiful edge that all the Coti whiners would not complain about. I mean like JNAT level.

The les latneuses are some of my favorite too giving speed and a range of options if you want to use the hybrid side to increase the keeness. I also seem to remember in all my past readings of the inclusions in some of the LL, but Bart and most others I recall said they did not cause harm or edge damage. I could be wrong, but don't remember anyone saying they had problems with them.

My favorite yet hardest to achieve edge comes from a vintage LGB. The shave quality is what a true Coticule is known for the smoothness of the edge. To me this is the only coticule that goes a hint smoother than the rest and still just wipes the face clean.

In the end though I can not pick a top three per say. As I like the edge from each for different reasons. I have never had a Coticule disappoint me.
If judging on speed though I would go with the OP and say LL,LV,LPB and I would also say LD.

 

[jason12768]

I have had three LPB, I still have one, and am a fan of that layer for the first 90% of the honing. Getting the last 10% is a little more challenging. It can totally be done, but you have to finesse it. Eventually I bought a LV, did the last 10% on that, and saved myself a lot of effort.

Same here.
I have La Veinettes, La Grise, La Nouvelle Veine, many vintage ones and a LPB.

I specially inquired Ardennes about the fastest Coticule they had in stock, because I dislike honing on synthetics for bevel setting and the likes. So the suggested me their very last LPB they had in stock, so I ordered it a couple weeks ago. Very fast stone excellent for bevel setting, but I would indeed rather finish on another stone too. LV and La Grise does a tremendous job. In all honesty I don't mind going to a synthetic 20K for finishing, Jnat like, very good stone as well. LPB on water alone is very fast and quickly removes metal, it's a treat to have and a big time saver!