Tomo vs. honzan

[Yanky]

Hi all. As a new honer with a limited budget, I have to choose wisely what to buy. After having purchased a few jnats (mostly lower end),and a few tomo, what would be the best direction to take in expanding my collection. Do I invest in getting 1 or 2 higher end base stones? Or perhaps getting a larger and more diverse bunch of Tomos?
I guess the question really boils down to is the honzan the bedrock of all the honing,and therefore more important than the slurry, or is the real refinement happening with the slurry, and the Tomo is supreme?
It would be so much cheaper to expand the tomos obviously, so I guess I’m hoping they’re the answer.
Any and all help would be much appreciated!

 

[C FrankC]

PM sent

 

[MasterOfPups]

Slurry will do probably 95 percent of the work, but your final result will be limited by how fine your base stone is.

 

[musicman980]

I would personally invest in an atoma diamond plate. They are often used as a “diamond nagura” and pull a slurry straight from the base stone, all while keeping them flat which is another necessity. This is how you’d test the fineness and grit richness of the honzan itself.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

So, how are your shaving edges now?

Bigger is not always better. You can easily improve your Jnat honing by better pre finishing on synthetics 8-12k, then finishing on Jnats.

A good test of the performance of a Jnat is how quickly and to what degree it will remove 1k bevel set stria, and finish with just Diamond slurry. You do not need to buy a high dollar Diamond plate to get performance. A $30, 300-1000 plate will perform just as well and last as long for lapping stones and making slurry.

All Jnats and nagura are natural stones and will vary in performance.

You may not need new stone, just improve your technique. Which nagura are you using now?

 

[Yanky]

I have a worn atoma 400? (I forget exactly the grit rating but something in that range) so I can easily use that. I was weary of using it because I was nervous about an errant piece of diamond ruining my edge, but I can use just to assess the stones themselves. I will invest more energy into pre finishing as per your advice. Thank you for the guidance!

 

[Steve56]

I’d probably continue on your current path, more nice lower end JNats and nice tomo.

The reason is that the percentage of good JNat razor hones doesn’t seem to depend on the price, so buying a more expensive stone doesn’t really increase your chances much if any. I’d go for nice barber size (135 x 80mm) stones and I’d buy nice looking, regularly shaped ones that are Nakayama, Okudo, or Ozuku.

Then I’d buy some really ugly cheap ones from the same mines. Why? Really good razor tomo are a lot more uncommon than the hones. A lot of people cut junk stone into ‘tomo’ to get rid of it. If you can get a tomo or two out of a cheap, irregular Nakayama, that’s a big win because you can test it first before you cut it. A tile saw is nice but if you’re patient, a hacksaw with a carbide blade will work. Give Takeshi at AFrames Tokyo an email and see what he has in Nakayama tomo - occasionally he has some nice tomo.

 

[Yanky]

I’d probably continue on your current path, more nice lower end JNats and nice tomo.

The reason is that the percentage of good JNat razor hones doesn’t seem to depend on the price, so buying a more expensive stone doesn’t really increase your chances much if any. I’d go for nice barber size (135 x 80mm) stones and I’d buy nice looking, regularly shaped ones that are Nakayama, Okudo, or Ozuku.

Then I’d buy some really ugly cheap ones from the same mines. Why? Really good razor tomo are a lot more uncommon than the hones. A lot of people cut junk stone into ‘tomo’ to get rid of it. If you can get a tomo or two out of a cheap, irregular Nakayama, that’s a big win because you can test it first before you cut it. A tile saw is nice but if you’re patient, a hacksaw with a carbide blade will work. Give Takeshi at AFrames Tokyo an email and see what he has in Nakayama tomo - occasionally he has some nice tomo.

Thank you I never would’ve thought in that direction!
By the way, is there any reason shobudani isn’t on your list? Just wondering,because I have one from there and I’m wondering if there is a pitfall (in it’s use) that I should be looking out for.

 

[Gamma]

First, isolate what it is that you are not getting from what you already own.
Then, try to exploit what you own to get where you want to.

If you get 'there', great. If not, then review what is missing from the equation and try to suss out what might be the missing key.
More often than not, people don't need a new stone, they just need to hone better with the one/s they own.

Regardless, spending money to solve a problem that hasn't been clearly defined might lead to dead ends, tail chasing, and frustration.
Also, don't buy based on quarry name, buy stones based on qualified traits. The name of the hole in the ground means, literally, nothing. Shobu, Naka, etc - they all produced tons of stone of all types and grades. The only things that matter are what the stone in question is capable of, and whether or not the intended user is capable of using the stone to its full capabilities.
I can pick up 10 Shobu all from the same strata and they can all be wildly different.
I can pick up 10 Tomo and they will all behave differently on each of the 10 Shobu.
Finding a 'match' that the user can get dialed into is the key. It's not so much which one is more important, they are both as important as each other and, sometimes, an accidental combo might prove to be 'the one'.

 

[Steve56]

Thank you I never would’ve thought in that direction!
By the way, is there any reason shobudani isn’t on your list? Just wondering,because I have one from there and I’m wondering if there is a pitfall (in it’s use) that I should be looking out for.

No pitfalls, Shobudani is fine too, but I doubt there are many real ones left. Other mines produced good stones too, but your odds are a little better with the ones mentioned.

 

[alex1921]

Names in the Jnat game are to a certain degree pointless. If I showed you the examples I have of stones being auctioned in Japan as no name that miraculously become Nakayamas before they are sold to westerners you would be surprised. And I am talking about the so called trusted sellers not the Russian guy.
Buy stones based on performance, don't buy stones based on name.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

The loose diamond thing is rare, and probably only occurs with a new plate, if ever.

Take a look at Alex Gilmore’s videos on thejapanstone for how he tests stones and Jnat honing tips.
It may not be the stones at all and you may not have fully set the bevel. It is very common with new honers.

The 400 diamond plate will work just fine, experiment with slurry thickness, you do not need much.

 

[David]

Names in the Jnat game are to a certain degree pointless. If I showed you the examples I have of stones being auctioned in Japan as no name that miraculously become Nakayamas before they are sold to westerners you would be surprised. And I am talking about the so called trusted sellers not the Russian guy.
Buy stones based on performance, don't buy stones based on name.

Agreed. Buy the stone, not the story.

 

[rideon66]

As stated above don't listen to all the stories you really can't trust most of them. From what you posted it depends. Are you confident enough to know the level of your base stone? If not I would find someone who knows and have them see how good the stones you have are. You can also use one stone on another as tomo so if you already have a few, you have a few more tomo too. It is really a marriage between the two though. If both are hard enough you can make up for some short comings on one with the other, but really you want a base stone that is hard enough and fine enough. Having good grit for cutting power is a real plus that speeds things up. Same for tomo really. You don't need to buy high end expensive stone to get stones that finish to a high end degree. You just need to find the right ones. Which maybe you have already.

 

[Yanky]

As stated above don't listen to all the stories you really can't trust most of them. From what you posted it depends. Are you confident enough to know the level of your base stone? If not I would find someone who knows and have them see how good the stones you have are. You can also use one stone on another as tomo so if you already have a few, you have a few more tomo too. It is really a marriage between the two though. If both are hard enough you can make up for some short comings on one with the other, but really you want a base stone that is hard enough and fine enough. Having good grit for cutting power is a real plus that speeds things up. Same for tomo really. You don't need to buy high end expensive stone to get stones that finish to a high end degree. You just need to find the right ones. Which maybe you have already.

I think you nailed it on the head. The fact that it’s a marriage was confusing me. If I don’t know the stone without the Tomo and vice versa, how do I really know either. I thought that the answer was to have a larger pool of stones/Tomo to be able to see patterns. But I think the idea of using a diamond plate to raise slurry helps me isolate each stone. With that as a baseline I’m hoping to get to know my current stones better. It’s amazing how everyone helped me crystallize my issue! (And save out on having to invest in too many stones). Thanks all!

 

[rideon66]

I think you nailed it on the head. The fact that it’s a marriage was confusing me. If I don’t know the stone without the Tomo and vice versa, how do I really know either. I thought that the answer was to have a larger pool of stones/Tomo to be able to see patterns. But I think the idea of using a diamond plate to raise slurry helps me isolate each stone. With that as a baseline I’m hoping to get to know my current stones better. It’s amazing how everyone helped me crystallize my issue! (And save out on having to invest in too many stones). Thanks all!

Yes if you want to know the true nature of your stone the diamond plate is the best way to test. I do this for each stone to get the initial read.