Another newbie question for you before I place a Strop Shoppe order on the day of the sale. I've never used a tallow based soap but I can imagine a few positives. What's the downside? Why aren't more soaps tallow based? Thanks for your thoughts--IronMike
To Tallow or Not to Tallow
- Thread starter Shellbriar
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I am no expert but tallow soaps appear to lather "thicker" than non-tallow soaps in my humble opinion.
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Stroppe shoppe is an interesting case because it is one of the few makers I know that offers similar soaps in tallow and non tallow versions. I used to be all tallow all the time, but have come to realize that you can make outstanding soap without it. That said, I've never experienced the comparison of tallow vs non from the same manufacturer (except Razorock, and they source their lines from different makers), which would give a nice controlled comparison to help isolate the role that tallow plays
I think, when I have seen a preference expressed on Stroppe Shoppe, it is for the tallow, but I'm not positive.
I think, when I have seen a preference expressed on Stroppe Shoppe, it is for the tallow, but I'm not positive.
Cost is probably one of the major reasons, My guess is that tallow costs more than vegetable fats which is why you hear about some soaps being re-formulated from tallow to vege. If tallow was cheaper you would see the other way around more often.
A second reason would be ethical reasons, some people just don't like the idea of using animal fats.
I have only used VDH Luxury (vege based) and new formula Williams (mix of vege and tallow) so far so I'm pretty certain that I'm not qualified to say which is better based off of only two samples.
A second reason would be ethical reasons, some people just don't like the idea of using animal fats.
I have only used VDH Luxury (vege based) and new formula Williams (mix of vege and tallow) so far so I'm pretty certain that I'm not qualified to say which is better based off of only two samples.
My hope is that I like the non-tallow versions better, or just as much, as the tallow. But I'm not experienced enough with the non-tallow to know.
I have a non-tallow London Morning -- and I don't "miss" the tallow in any way. But then, when I got that, the tallow version of London Morning wasn't yet made, so I don't know how different it is, or if I'd miss it once I knew it.
I have a tub of non-tallow Baker St., and a tub of the Special Edition with Tallow. I'll make a comparison for myself after a bunch of shaves, and hopefully remember to come back to this thread when I do. That might be a while, though.
(This is addressed to the specific question of Strop Shoppe tallow-vs.-non-tallow versions; for the larger question of tallow vs. non-tallow in general, there are arguments....!)
I have a non-tallow London Morning -- and I don't "miss" the tallow in any way. But then, when I got that, the tallow version of London Morning wasn't yet made, so I don't know how different it is, or if I'd miss it once I knew it.
I have a tub of non-tallow Baker St., and a tub of the Special Edition with Tallow. I'll make a comparison for myself after a bunch of shaves, and hopefully remember to come back to this thread when I do. That might be a while, though.
(This is addressed to the specific question of Strop Shoppe tallow-vs.-non-tallow versions; for the larger question of tallow vs. non-tallow in general, there are arguments....!)
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For most soaps it seems like tallow makes an easier lather, and one that is particularly creamy. There is a base note of tallow in some soaps, particularly lightly scent ones. As for Strop Shoppe special edition, I have both and there is minimal difference between tallow and non-tallow editions. Both soaps will produce lather that looks like this:
http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/365194-I-finally-nailed-Mystic-Waters-Soap!-(Pic-Heavy)
http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/365194-I-finally-nailed-Mystic-Waters-Soap!-(Pic-Heavy)
The short answer is that there are good tallow soaps, good non-tallow soaps, bad tallow soaps, and bad non-tallow soaps. Tabac, Mitchell's Wool Fat, Valobra, D.R. Harris are all good tallow soaps. Martin de Candre, Klar Seifen, Cade are examples of good non tallow soaps. I'm not an expert by any means on this, but I believe the reason tallow is not used as much is because as an ingredient it has become more difficult to source by the maker. Some of the best soaps around are the tallow soaps made by the artisan soap makers such as Mike's, QCS, MW, Panna Crema, etc.
I look to use any "good" soap, and I don't care too much whether it has tallow as an ingredient in it or not. I believe tallow helps with the production of the lather, but there are non-tallow ingredients that do the same thing. Martin de Candre is a good example..... it's about the easiest soap in the world to lather and does not contain tallow. I go more by reputation and word of mouth than ingredients.
Ben
I look to use any "good" soap, and I don't care too much whether it has tallow as an ingredient in it or not. I believe tallow helps with the production of the lather, but there are non-tallow ingredients that do the same thing. Martin de Candre is a good example..... it's about the easiest soap in the world to lather and does not contain tallow. I go more by reputation and word of mouth than ingredients.
Ben
TO follow what Ben posted. The ingredients do not mean as much as the soaper's "art" of combining the ingredients in such a way that a quality product emerges. As far as tallow v. vegetable based soaps, it is merely a user preference.
My experience is limited, totally anecdotal and subjective. For me the non-tallow version of AOS Lavender in no way matches the original tallow version, plain and simple. Now when P&G reformulated without tallow, surely that wasn't the only change they made, so I can't say what other additions/subtractions may have caused my dis-satisfaction with the new formula.
All of the soaps I currently use are tallow; they are in my rotation because for me they are terrific. All of them are non-artisan, have been around a long time, are sold internationally and have consistently garnered really great reviews from shavers far more experienced than I.
One or two tallow soaps I've tried were NOT at all terrific...for me, lousy inconsistent lather.
Nearly all of non-tallow soaps I've tried were also not to my liking. One or two, e.g., QEDMan glycerine soaps, are ok performers but not good enough to displace the 4 or 5 tallow soaps I regularly use, based on the quantity and quality of the lather I need for a great shave.
Plenty of contrary opinions here of course, but if you have the money and ability to try a dozen or more highly-rated tallow and non-tallow soaps and give each of them plenty of chances to prove performance, go for it and draw your own conclusions.
jr/John
All of the soaps I currently use are tallow; they are in my rotation because for me they are terrific. All of them are non-artisan, have been around a long time, are sold internationally and have consistently garnered really great reviews from shavers far more experienced than I.
One or two tallow soaps I've tried were NOT at all terrific...for me, lousy inconsistent lather.
Nearly all of non-tallow soaps I've tried were also not to my liking. One or two, e.g., QEDMan glycerine soaps, are ok performers but not good enough to displace the 4 or 5 tallow soaps I regularly use, based on the quantity and quality of the lather I need for a great shave.
Plenty of contrary opinions here of course, but if you have the money and ability to try a dozen or more highly-rated tallow and non-tallow soaps and give each of them plenty of chances to prove performance, go for it and draw your own conclusions.
jr/John
A lot of good responses on here....this is the place to come to learn about soap! That said, your "why" question is likely one of cost and choice...many soapmakers produce high quality, good lathering soap w/o tallow.
It's an apples and oranges thing. If you're new to wet shaving and the boards, once you've got your technique down, I recommend trying both tallow and non tallow soaps to see what you like best.
Best of luck on your journey!
It's an apples and oranges thing. If you're new to wet shaving and the boards, once you've got your technique down, I recommend trying both tallow and non tallow soaps to see what you like best.
Best of luck on your journey!
I have narrowed my soaps down to a selection of both tallow and non-tallow. All I can say is that they are soaps that work the best for me. I have no allergies (so far) to any particular ingredient and whether they contained tallow or not was not a factor in my decision.
I've found that "in general" the tallow soaps I have used tend to create a richer, more stable lather with less effort than non-tallow varieties. That being said, I have found a few excellent non-tallow soaps as well. The only downside I can think of is that "in my experience" the tallow soaps take a little more time to wipe completely clean off the skin. I feel that the positives much outweigh this only minor negative though.
Tallow soaps are really superior although not all equal. Strop Shoppe Special edition tallow soaps are as elite as it gets. All these TOBS, Proraso, Cella users who think they are using the best soap have not tried SS special edition soaps, it is not an opinion SS just has a thicker protective lather with coco and shea butter with the tallow. A very smart purchase for you, I picked up a couple of soaps to go with my barbershoppe SE which is incredible.
It just so happens that many of my favourite soaps do contain tallow. The re-formulations which have taken place in many of the English houses were, I am sure, due to political pressure.
Most of my favorite soaps do contain tallow. But some don't, La Toja shaving stick, Martin de Candre and Proraso Green and White. Still great soaps in any aspect.
Oft discussed topic. Some think that tallow is the make-or-break ingredient. Others do not. To answer your question, try the options and see for yourself. My favorite soap does not use tallow. YMMV.
As for downsides, there are vegan wetshavers out there, for one thing.
Superior is subjective. Otherwise we'd all use the same exact soap.
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