What's new

To Strop or Not to Strop - With Pasted Balsa Maintenance?

My edges from my JNAT progessions are very good right now even after the hiatus. I fail to see how a 0.1μm diamond paste would do much more than what a slurry using my Nakayama Kiita Tomo would do. I don't think I would need to go with anything more course than that on balsa. And what we are talking about is stropping, not honing per se.

That's the beauty of honing/stropping in my opinion, I won't know until I try.

Thanks for the direction.

Okay so, it's too early in the morning for me to make these snap decisions. After reading my old shave/honing diary and after reviewing some of the contributions from members here in their own journeys, I cancelled my order for balsa and diamond paste.

I'm going back to the JNAT progressions that served me so well years ago. I suppose that I was looking for the quicker way. Maybe I'll find another "project straight" down the road, set the bevel and run it through my JNAT progression and then pick up on the balsa thing and experiment. But for now, I need to get back in touch with my stones again, it's been too long (as in 2 years).

Mea Culpa. Those who took me along and helped me years ago through my own personal honing experience from novice to where I left off would hopefully support my decision.

Thanks for putting up with me talking to myself out loud :)
 

Slash McCoy

I freehand dog rockets
My edges from my JNAT progessions are very good right now even after the hiatus. I fail to see how a 0.1μm diamond paste would do much more than what a slurry using my Nakayama Kiita Tomo would do. I don't think I would need to go with anything more course than that on balsa. And what we are talking about is stropping, not honing per se.

That's the beauty of honing/stropping in my opinion, I won't know until I try.

Thanks for the direction.
The potential issue is not that the .1u diamond on balsa would do something to your razor, but that the .1u diamond on balsa would do practically nothing. From a good Jnat edge you would want to do the same thing usually done from a 1u film edge or a 12k synthetic edge, and that is to run three stages of balsa: .5u, .25u, and .1u. Once you have run the progression once, or maybe twice, you then only need to use the .1u from then on. It does work very well, with optimal technique in construction, preparation, and use. I have never had any other edge that compares.
 
I am not sure what this TI white paste is made of and how it compares to diamond in terms of cutting speed.
I just honed one of my Hart Steel razors yesterday. The progression was shapton gs seven 2k, 8, 17k to JNAT. The first photo is after finishing with slurry on the JNAT. A small chip have developed on the edge. These razors are a pain to hone in my opinion. This will probably not be felt after the edge is stropped on leather.
I decided to see how effective TI paste is. It is easier to see if you have a reference point like a small micro chip.
I only did 10 weight of the blade laps on the TI paste on balsa. Already after only 10 light laps the edge have become much smoother at the apex, and the chip have become smaller. I really do not think hundreds of laps on balsa is really needed if you finish on a 12k or a JNAT.
In my experience .5u and .25u diamond cuts way to fast after a 12k, and may set the edge back.

If the edge is good, i think you only need to go to a 0.1 micron paste, or even use something like the white TI paste.
I think a common mistake is to do to much. I did the same amount of stropping on 0.25u diamond on a different razor. The edge was horrible. I think that if you decide to use diamond you need to follow it up with something finer, like 0.1m diamond or CBN, which have been mentioned.

Does anyone know what the TI paste is made of and the particle size? I have not used paste for ages, but these hart razors really seem to benefit from 10 to 15 passes on balsa. I am not getting along with my DMT 0.25u. It might just this particular spray. Maybe the poly diamond is better.

1642064461703.jpeg

1642064576760.jpeg
 

rbscebu

Girls call me Makaluod
I am not sure what this TI white paste is made of and how it compares to diamond in terms of cutting speed.
I just honed one of my Hart Steel razors yesterday. The progression was shapton gs seven 2k, 8, 17k to JNAT. The first photo is after finishing with slurry on the JNAT. A small chip have developed on the edge. These razors are a pain to hone in my opinion. This will probably not be felt after the edge is stropped on leather.
I decided to see how effective TI paste is. It is easier to see if you have a reference point like a small micro chip.
I only did 10 weight of the blade laps on the TI paste on balsa. Already after only 10 light laps the edge have become much smoother at the apex, and the chip have become smaller. I really do not think hundreds of laps on balsa is really needed if you finish on a 12k or a JNAT.
In my experience .5u and .25u diamond cuts way to fast after a 12k, and may set the edge back.

If the edge is good, i think you only need to go to a 0.1 micron paste, or even use something like the white TI paste.
I think a common mistake is to do to much. I did the same amount of stropping on 0.25u diamond on a different razor. The edge was horrible. I think that if you decide to use diamond you need to follow it up with something finer, like 0.1m diamond or CBN, which have been mentioned.

Does anyone know what the TI paste is made of and the particle size? I have not used paste for ages, but these hart razors really seem to benefit from 10 to 15 passes on balsa. I am not getting along with my DMT 0.25u. It might just this particular spray. Maybe the poly diamond is better.

View attachment 1392953
View attachment 1392955
Can't help you with the white TI paste.

Many have found that shaving straight off a 0.25μm diamond pasted balsa strop gives an uncomfortable shave. I have found in order of shave quality - worst to best:

0.25μm diamond pasted balsa strop
0.5μm diamond pasted balsa strop
1.0μm ( about 20k grit) lapping film
0.1μm diamond pasted balsa strop
0.1μm diamond pasted hanging balsa strop

This is why, if you are going to use a diamond pasted balsa strop progression, it is important to use the full three diamond grit sizes in your progression.
 
I am not sure what this TI white paste is made of and how it compares to diamond in terms of cutting speed.
I just honed one of my Hart Steel razors yesterday. The progression was shapton gs seven 2k, 8, 17k to JNAT. The first photo is after finishing with slurry on the JNAT. A small chip have developed on the edge. These razors are a pain to hone in my opinion. This will probably not be felt after the edge is stropped on leather.
I decided to see how effective TI paste is. It is easier to see if you have a reference point like a small micro chip.
I only did 10 weight of the blade laps on the TI paste on balsa. Already after only 10 light laps the edge have become much smoother at the apex, and the chip have become smaller. I really do not think hundreds of laps on balsa is really needed if you finish on a 12k or a JNAT.
In my experience .5u and .25u diamond cuts way to fast after a 12k, and may set the edge back.

If the edge is good, i think you only need to go to a 0.1 micron paste, or even use something like the white TI paste.
I think a common mistake is to do to much. I did the same amount of stropping on 0.25u diamond on a different razor. The edge was horrible. I think that if you decide to use diamond you need to follow it up with something finer, like 0.1m diamond or CBN, which have been mentioned.

Does anyone know what the TI paste is made of and the particle size? I have not used paste for ages, but these hart razors really seem to benefit from 10 to 15 passes on balsa. I am not getting along with my DMT 0.25u. It might just this particular spray. Maybe the poly diamond is better.

View attachment 1392953
View attachment 1392955
I agree to your Statement, that just a few laps with little pressure are sufficient to smoothen an edge on a pasted stros. I typically do 5-10 laps as well.

The white TI paste is aluminium oxide. I have never seen a definitive statement on the particle size but science of sharp has done some testing on the TI paste in his "pasted strop" article. He comes to the conclusion that the particle sizes vary a lot in this paste, but the results are nevertheless fine because the rather soft nature of the abrasive :
The Pasted Strop – part 4 - https://scienceofsharp.com/2016/05/29/the-pasted-strop-part-4/?
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: JPO
Can't help you with the white TI paste.

Many have found that shaving straight off a 0.25μm diamond pasted balsa strop gives an uncomfortable shave. I have found in order of shave quality - worst to best:

0.25μm diamond pasted balsa strop
0.5μm diamond pasted balsa strop
1.0μm ( about 20k grit) lapping film
0.1μm diamond pasted balsa strop
0.1μm diamond pasted hanging balsa strop

This is why, if you are going to use a diamond pasted balsa strop progression, it is important to use the full three diamond grit sizes in your progression.
I think part of the point i was trying to make was that if you are finishing on a 12k or a JNAT you are probably better off if you skip ahead to a finer paste (0.1μm diamond/CBN), and only start with 10 to 15 passes. If the edge is not good enough do 10 to 15 more (if your decide to use paste).

On the other hand if you start with 0.25u or 0.5u diamond you might be better off if you start that progression from an 6-8k stone.
Even a 0.25 micron diamond paste may have particles that are much bigger.
How do you quantify the size of these diamonds? You only need a few bigger diamonds to really set the edge back.

One important factor in general is the substrate used matters allot. Crox on leather feel rough to me, but Crox on balsa is much smoother. Particle shape and hardness is also a big factor, and is probably one of the reasons diamonds feels so rough.

SEM images of TI and Crox show that they do have much larger particles then some of the finer diamond pastes, including 0.25u diamond spray. They still provide smoother edges then the equivalent diamond pastes of the same grit rating.

I am getting a little off topic here.
To strop or not to strop on pasted balsa that is the question.
I have a dovo inox razor i finished on TI balsa strop after a coticule. I was planning to use it every day for a few weeks and strop it on the TI paste after each shave to see what happens. I fear i might actually like it:) The first shave was quite good.
I might then try to compare it to a 0.1 micron CBN edge on balsa over a time period.
I think 5-10 passes is enough after each shave in addition to a hanging leather strop.
 
I think part of the point i was trying to make was that if you are finishing on a 12k or a JNAT you are probably better off if you skip ahead to a finer paste (0.1μm diamond/CBN), and only start with 10 to 15 passes.

This is my opinion as well as a person who has used JNATS for years to hone some extremely smooth and sharp edges. I could see maybe using the 0.1μm diamond paste or spray on the balsa for touch ups after a full JNAT or Cot progression. But, running a 0.25u, 0.5u and 0.1μm progression off of stones for me seems like I'm going backwards.

That's the beauty of why we are here. It's all personal choice and experimentation. I can see why the folks who are so successful with film honing can do this and get great edges. And, I think that I might try balsa someday for touch ups because it would be more expedient than pulling out the stones to touch up. Then again, I'm retired so what else do I have to do with my life? :c9:
 
  • Like
Reactions: JPO
This is my opinion as well as a person who has used JNATS for years to hone some extremely smooth and sharp edges. I could see maybe using the 0.1μm diamond paste or spray on the balsa for touch ups after a full JNAT or Cot progression. But, running a 0.25u, 0.5u and 0.1μm progression off of stones for me seems like I'm going backwards.

That's the beauty of why we are here. It's all personal choice and experimentation. I can see why the folks who are so successful with film honing can do this and get great edges. And, I think that I might try balsa someday for touch ups because it would be more expedient than pulling out the stones to touch up. Then again, I'm retired so what else do I have to do with my life? :c9:
The edge in my photo was not even tested before it was given a new coticule edge. Knowing there was a micro chip, which i probably would not feel, gave me an excuse to do some more honing. The edge had some other issues to though.

For me film and pasted balsa works grate, but i feel you need to take the edge a bit further then i like to get it smooth. You cannot just stop at 0.25m diamond. You need finer pastes to smooth it out. Now we are approaching light saber edge. I feel like i already have that type of edge on an artist club blade.
I did put a 0.1m CBN edge on my 7/8 hart razor once after a JNAT. That thing was just to deadly in my hands. The square point is also not a good match:)
CBN/Diamond paste seem to work exceptionally well on harder steel that are prone to chipping.
 

Slash McCoy

I freehand dog rockets
I think part of the point i was trying to make was that if you are finishing on a 12k or a JNAT you are probably better off if you skip ahead to a finer paste (0.1μm diamond/CBN), and only start with 10 to 15 passes. If the edge is not good enough do 10 to 15 more (if your decide to use paste).

On the other hand if you start with 0.25u or 0.5u diamond you might be better off if you start that progression from an 6-8k stone.
Even a 0.25 micron diamond paste may have particles that are much bigger.
How do you quantify the size of these diamonds? You only need a few bigger diamonds to really set the edge back.

One important factor in general is the substrate used matters allot. Crox on leather feel rough to me, but Crox on balsa is much smoother. Particle shape and hardness is also a big factor, and is probably one of the reasons diamonds feels so rough.

SEM images of TI and Crox show that they do have much larger particles then some of the finer diamond pastes, including 0.25u diamond spray. They still provide smoother edges then the equivalent diamond pastes of the same grit rating.

I am getting a little off topic here.
To strop or not to strop on pasted balsa that is the question.
I have a dovo inox razor i finished on TI balsa strop after a coticule. I was planning to use it every day for a few weeks and strop it on the TI paste after each shave to see what happens. I fear i might actually like it:) The first shave was quite good.
I might then try to compare it to a 0.1 micron CBN edge on balsa over a time period.
I think 5-10 passes is enough after each shave in addition to a hanging leather strop.
You are mixing two different paradigms. You are discounting the fact that the abrasive in the balsa is embedded deeply in the balsa and not on it. There is no coating. Using diamond paste without following The Method, you might be right. However, many of us, myself in particular, have used the diamond / balsa progression and found that it is easier to use too few laps than too many, when the balsa is properly prepared and used. .1u diamond properly applied to balsa has practically no effect on a 12k edge at any reasonable number of laps. This is not your grampa's pasted stropping. This is a new thing.

The way we do it, when you are using the balsa, you are not using paste. You are using lapped balsa with a small amount of paste thoroughly rubbed into it, then wiped clean. If you try it, without deviating in the slightest, from The Method, you will see. Ask anyone who has been using this for a while.
 
You are mixing two different paradigms. You are discounting the fact that the abrasive in the balsa is embedded deeply in the balsa and not on it. There is no coating. Using diamond paste without following The Method, you might be right. However, many of us, myself in particular, have used the diamond / balsa progression and found that it is easier to use too few laps than too many, when the balsa is properly prepared and used. .1u diamond properly applied to balsa has practically no effect on a 12k edge at any reasonable number of laps. This is not your grampa's pasted stropping. This is a new thing.

The way we do it, when you are using the balsa, you are not using paste. You are using lapped balsa with a small amount of paste thoroughly rubbed into it, then wiped clean. If you try it, without deviating in the slightest, from The Method, you will see. Ask anyone who has been using this for a while.
You are probably right that to many laps do not hurt anything. At some point the edge conforms to the tiny give there is in soft wood. Say you are doing 100 laps. It might be useful to know that e.g. 10-20 laps might be enough, especially for just keeping the edge going. You are not removing much steel, so you might just be wasting a few minutes.
I have limited experience with pastes/sprays, but i do find it interesting.
When i used 0.1m CBN i used it wet. I sprayed it on the balsa wood and used it wet. That might have had an effect. It did bump up the edge to a different level. DrMatt uses his CBN/diamond on nano cloth wet. Maybe it is the same principle.

I do not think you need to follow all the steps with film to be able to say something about what is going on at this level of the final refinement. If you are starting from a stone you might have an advantage because your bevel plane is straighter, because it is not convexed by the film (depending on how you use it guess). When you move to the balsa you are initially working on a smaller area at the apex. This will speed up the process a little. You can see this effect under magnification.

I might just do a test and hone a razor all the way up to a shapton 0.44 mic and strop on 0.1mic CBN on balsa to see if there is an effect after a few laps. You might be right. I am able to magnify enough to actually see what is going on at the apex, so it might be interesting to quantify this.

"This is not your grampa's pasted stropping. This is a new thing."

I do not think my grandpa had 0.1 micron CBN, but i am sure he would have used it if he had:)
 
Last edited:
I think part of the point i was trying to make was that if you are finishing on a 12k or a JNAT you are probably better off if you skip ahead to a finer paste (0.1μm diamond/CBN), and only start with 10 to 15 passes. If the edge is not good enough do 10 to 15 more (if your decide to use paste).

On the other hand if you start with 0.25u or 0.5u diamond you might be better off if you start that progression from an 6-8k stone.
Even a 0.25 micron diamond paste may have particles that are much bigger.
How do you quantify the size of these diamonds? You only need a few bigger diamonds to really set the edge back.
There are a lot of variables here. Almost too many to have a productive conversation. What grit scales are we referring to? Which manufacturer? With the diamond and balsa, are we talking balsa prepared per the "method," i.e. a small amount of abrasive well-embedded and then wiped clean, or just sprayed on?

The thing about the "Method" is not only will it improve the sharpness of an edge, but it wipes out the fingerprint of whatever you honed the razor on. If you're coming off a synthetic 12k, that's a good thing in my opinion. Coming off a JNAT? Maybe not. I'm not sure the marginal improvement in sharpness is worth losing the feel of a good natural edge. Unless your JNAT sucks.

Generally speaking though, I get the best results off the balsa if the edge is as sharp as I can get it off the hone. I can go from a Fuji 8k or a 1 micron film but ultimately I prefer about 10 passes on a .3 micron film over paper if I'm going to take the razor through the balsa method. And yes, .5 diamond pasted balsa will make a .3 film edge sharper as evidenced by improvements in HHT. I assume this is because the .5 paste is applied sparingly, embedded deeply, and wiped clean. I usually stop seeing improvement after 30 laps on the .5. Where, coming off the Fuji or a 1micron film, I might continue to see improvement up to 50 or 60 laps. If it takes more than 60 laps, I usually go back to the hone.
 
There are a lot of variables here. Almost too many to have a productive conversation. What grit scales are we referring to? Which manufacturer? With the diamond and balsa, are we talking balsa prepared per the "method," i.e. a small amount of abrasive well-embedded and then wiped clean, or just sprayed on?

The thing about the "Method" is not only will it improve the sharpness of an edge, but it wipes out the fingerprint of whatever you honed the razor on. If you're coming off a synthetic 12k, that's a good thing in my opinion. Coming off a JNAT? Maybe not. I'm not sure the marginal improvement in sharpness is worth losing the feel of a good natural edge. Unless your JNAT sucks.

Generally speaking though, I get the best results off the balsa if the edge is as sharp as I can get it off the hone. I can go from a Fuji 8k or a 1 micron film but ultimately I prefer about 10 passes on a .3 micron film over paper if I'm going to take the razor through the balsa method. And yes, .5 diamond pasted balsa will make a .3 film edge sharper as evidenced by improvements in HHT. I assume this is because the .5 paste is applied sparingly, embedded deeply, and wiped clean. I usually stop seeing improvement after 30 laps on the .5. Where, coming off the Fuji or a 1micron film, I might continue to see improvement up to 50 or 60 laps. If it takes more than 60 laps, I usually go back to the hone.
This is just stuff i messed around with about 7 years ago when i started honing. The last 6 years have been devoted to natural stone edges without any paste/sprays. My edges only need to be sharp enough to cut my beard above the skin without pulling. Sometimes i do dig up some of the old gear just to see if i missed anything.
My JNAT edges really do not need anything "extra". I usually finish on a little slurry, so there is probably a little extra optimization left i have not tried to utilize yet. I used pastes/sprays in the beginning as a crutch, but i guess i like something different now.
 

steveclarkus

Goose Poop Connoisseur
Either one or another. A well done jnat edge is just as good as a well done pasted balsa edge and I stress “well done”. The pasted balsa can be mastered quickly where the Jnat will require much more experience not to mention cost. If honing is a hobby and something you really enjoy, natural stones would be the logical choice, on the other hand, if you just want a sharp comfortable edge and consider honing a chore, the Method makes more sense. I fall into the latter category but fully understand the former.

Fly tying is a good analogy. It it is a fine hobby but it is much cheaper to just buy them. Personally, I enjoy tying them in spite of the cost of tools and materials.

Get your pleasure where you find it - rocks or feathers or whatever else floats your boat.
 
Top Bottom