Time to upgrade my lower grit stones

[Joshua223]

Yeah, the name Washita has been used on different grades of Arks. I've owned an older Washita and it was on the coarser side. It was a nice stone for pocket knives. Dan's Whetstones market their Washita stones as coarse. There is a vintage stone called the Norton Lily White Washita and those bring a premium at auction. Wish I had one as they are supposed to be great finishers. They are no longer mined though. Harder to cut and not enough demand.
Arks are interesting stones. I know one gentleman that will hone blades start to finish on one or two arks. He will dress one side of the stone with a diamond plate and burnish the other.

 

[kohalajohn]

Now, I am only starting to do this so can’t talk from experience.

But I’m going to try an atoma 400/1200 for the low end

Then a soft then a hard ark to finish.

I figure the low end is the low end. May as well get aggressive down there.

 

[psfred]

I would never use an Atoma 400 on a razor. The steel is quite brittle (because it's quite hard by steel standards) and the coarse diamonds plated onto steel have no give at all, unlike waterstones were grit will roll when there is high pressure locally.

The very hard, very rigidly adhered diamonds can crack the edge if you actually hone to an apex on a coarse diamond hone, and even if you don't you run the risk of very deep, sharp valley type scratches which leave a large stress concentration at the valley. Deep, sharp scratches can cause micro-cracks to form at the valley if there is a lot of pressure applied, and those micro-cracks can then propagate either later in honing or while stropping, and you get micro-chips in the edge. If you do manage to produce a micro-crack, it will survive subsequent removal of the scratch that caused it only to grow under stress or strain. You also have to remove quite a bit of steel to eliminate those deep scratches.

Most other types of stones have more gently bound grit that will roll away under high pressure, or fracture rather than gouge. Better to spend a couple hours getting to a clean apex with a finer stone than a couple hours next time fixing chips, and maybe generating more.

A lot of people learned the hard way not to use very hard, coarse stones with Japanese chisels intended for use in clear, soft conifer wood -- very large numbers of chippy edges, sometimes with visible pieces left in the wood. Ditto for razors.

I suggest not using anything coarser than 1000 grit to actually form an apex. 600 grit to get close on a razor that needs a lot of work, but not diamonds. You want to sort of sneak up on the apex as it's very thin, easily distorted, and subject to cracking if abused. Just the nature of the steel.

I've spent more time than I like to remember re-establishing proper plane iron bevels from previous abuse. Same thing applies, a coarse diamond plate goes fast, but the resulting edge is prone to chipping and having the apex go very rough quickly. Better to get close, then work a finer stone a lot longer to get a clean apex.

 

[Namkcakram]

Now, I am only starting to do this so can’t talk from experience.

But I’m going to try an atoma 400/1200 for the low end

Then a soft then a hard ark to finish.

I figure the low end is the low end. May as well get aggressive down there.

That should work OK, I’ve never used an atoma 1200 but I use DMTs for the heavy work. Diamond plates are very compatible with flat arks I think because both stay very unforgivingly flat in use and cut via abrasion against the flat surface itself. It just seems like jumping from a worn down 1200DMT to a coarser Ark is pretty seamless IME.

That said, with the right Washita a diamond plate is only necessary on restoration jobs or if you want to just blast through some micropitting in a hurry. A Washita can grind a fresh bevel quickly on all but the hardest tempered or most complex alloyed steels in razors. If you’re not trying to hone certain Japanese, Swedish, or modern D2 razors I think a Washita ends up being just as fast or faster than going 1K-8k synth and yields results I prefer over 8k synths with most razors in my collection(which is heavy in American and British razors).

 

[kohalajohn]

Yes, I agree that a 400 should be used rarely, only when needed to fix chips. 1200 would normally be the starting point. And for a healthy razor that has a proper bevel, no need even for the 1200.

A soft convex ark followed by a hard convex ark should be enough most times.

The diamond pair are just for those "other" times when the razor you bought is not in healthy shape.

 

[Ice-Man]

I only use my atoma 400 and 1200 for lapping my stones or creating slurry I have never tried it to set bevels on, I use a Naniwa 1000 as my bevel setter then move on to what I fancy edge wise.....

 

[C FrankC]

I only use diamond plates if the razor needs complete re-profiling or stabilizer re-work.
For restoration of the edge, ie. chip removal or heavy metal removal I prefer 400-600 or 800 Naniwa Professional stones (depending on damage) as I believe these stones are more edge-steel friendly and I end up using up less steel in the overall process.

 

[buca3152]

Dmts work better on steel imo. Atomas for lapping. I tested a junker razor when I got my atoma 400. And it really made a mess! The atoma has raised points of diamonds. That's why they last longer.

 

[Rustynail]

Well I would like to get a nice washita but I'm only seeing them on ebay and obviously they're all vintage, not cheap, and I'm not sure what I'm looking at.. As an alternative I'm tempted to pick up a soft ark from either TSS or Dan's just because they're a known new product, would already be lapped, and for $40 looks hard to beat. I know you can't place a grit label on a natural stone, but where would a soft ark fall in the progression or what synth stone could it take the place of?

 

[Rustynail]

OK we'll moving right along, I just grabbed this on the ebay.
Anyone know anything about it? I assume it will need to be lapped at minimum before using it? Lap one side to 400wd and the other side to 800wd?

 

[Rustynail]

Stone

 

[Namkcakram]

Stone

Nice, could be legit but I’m not positive. I’d lap coarser than that, think worn down 400/600 for the smoother side. Washita will break down or burnish faster than other novaculite stones so 400 will end up plenty smooth before you know it.

 

[Rustynail]

Nice, could be legit but I’m not positive. I’d lap coarser than that, think worn down 400/600 for the smoother side. Washita will break down or burnish faster than other novaculite stones so 400 will end up plenty smooth before you know it.

Does that mean it may not be legit?
Here the other Pic from the auction

 

[Namkcakram]

Does that mean it may not be legit?
Here the other Pic from the auction

There are plenty of stones floating around labeled Washita that are actually soft, and if you’ve never seen both you’d have a hard time knowing the difference. Don’t fear though, my best coarse Washita is pink streaked like that and has little spots that look like someone sprinkled pepper on the stone surface so odds are decent that you have a winner. Even if it’s a soft ark it’ll just cut a bit slower and respond less drastically to pressure changes, but it will still tie in just fine with an ark finisher.

 

[Rustynail]

Good to know thanks!

 

[Namkcakram]

Washita (coarser):

Note pepper spots

It’s hard to really see but the surface is evenly covered in fairly large voids

Another washita(finer) also mostly covered in voids:

Now a typical soft:

Definitely not even voids, some areas with smaller voids some areas denser and totally glazed over


There’s a noticeable speed gap between the two Washitas, but both are much faster and less dense than the soft. I love the soft, but at 1.75x5” and more dense, it ends up being maybe 1/8 as fast as the coarse 2x6 Washita if I’m actually setting a bevel. The washitas are fast enough and cover a wide enough range that you can easily substitute them for a synth progression, but the soft id need a massive stone to make up for it cutting slower and it would still probably be significantly slower than synths.

 

[Rustynail]

Thx for the pix! Yes I see the pepper and I'll look for that when my stone arrives. I'm confused about the voids and how a razor hones sharpening surface could have voids and not rip up the blade? Obviously I'm missing something here..

I've seen that soaking in simple green is a cleaning method for old hones. Would that be recommended here? Or just lap as necessary with water and use it?

 

[kohalajohn]

Well I would like to get a nice washita but I'm only seeing them on ebay and obviously they're all vintage, not cheap, and I'm not sure what I'm looking at.. As an alternative I'm tempted to pick up a soft ark from either TSS or Dan's just because they're a known new product, would already be lapped, and for $40 looks hard to beat. I know you can't place a grit label on a natural stone, but where would a soft ark fall in the progression or what synth stone could it take the place of?

if you want to get a convex soft ark from tss, it would cover your mid range. You can bevel set on it, but I'd get a 1200 for that , and then the soft ark above that to get you into the mid range.

I go atoma 1200 at the bottom and then soft ark. After that I'm ready for finishing on whatever.

 

[Namkcakram]

Thx for the pix! Yes I see the pepper and I'll look for that when my stone arrives. I'm confused about the voids and how a razor hones sharpening surface could have voids and not rip up the blade? Obviously I'm missing something here..

I've seen that soaking in simple green is a cleaning method for old hones. Would that be recommended here? Or just lap as necessary with water and use it?

Lapping is for flatness and if you want a smoother or coarser surface finish, simple green is to remove past honing gunk or old lubricants from the stone.

If somebody used it with oil and you want to use water (or there’s gunk on it and you have no idea what it is...), soak a bit in diluted simple green. If you put a straight edge up to it and there’s a fish of more than a barely visible sliver of light in the middle, you might want to lap it flat. Washitas are the only Arkansas stones I’d say lap easily enough to use SiC sandpaper. One of mine needed absurd lapping to flatten, the other I checked and then oiled it up and honed away!

Arkansas stones basically cut/polish via the little voids and slightly protruding edges in the crystalline stone structure. More voids means also more points and edges and thus more steel removal and polishing action per pass. Washitas cut the fastest because they are the least dense/highest void of the Arkansas novaculite stones. The best finishing stones have the highest density and most consistent crystalline structure throughout, but they’re so dense they have nearly no voids/tiny voids and cut/polish very slowly.

Where all arks shine and why an ark progression works well together is they don’t produce slurry so the edge of your razor effectively hydroplanes along the flat plane of the stones surface and produces a ruthlessly flat and consistent bevel geometry that will just continue to refine in polish as you progress through the stones. If you want faster/more aggressive cutting you use a thinner lubricant and press the bevel into the stone a bit harder. If you want a refined polish you use a higher viscosity lubricant and less pressure. This is why if you can get your pressure and technique light enough on a Washita you can actually produce a smooth/keen enough edge to shave at a surprising comfort level for most people. It’s also why they were the one stone solution for woodworkers, you can easily make a plane or chisel bevel sharp and smooth enough to shave end grain soft wood with no tracks or tearing left behind in the wood finish.

They are slow but it’s as simple as apply oil/water/fluid of choice and rub the steel around and good things happen. Just have decent technique/x strokes and don’t lift the spine or try anything weird.

 

[Bowmaker]

Does that mean it may not be legit?
Here the other Pic from the auction

Looks like a Smith's. I have one that is faster than a couple of my finer Washita's and the surface doesn't burnish as much as my Dan's soft Ark and it is lots faster. I would use it before I passed judgement on it.