Thiers Issard in the bin

[Apositive]

I'm fairly new to SR and TI razors, all but one were OK to Excellent from day one, no stropping on the first shave out of box. Only TI have honed my TI blades before me, no dealer has adjusted the blades.

One particular blade that was a challenge at first, not being that sharp, but I was able to improve the edge a bit on stones. That one isn't super flat, and it's best honing (in my lay skillset and equipment) now happens on a narrow leather paddle strop with cheap paste. It feels like a significant amount of effort and laps goes into improving the edge compared to other razors I've used.

I expect all my TI's will now follow the leather honing + paste regime they recommend until I can't keep them sharp, which they claim can be many years (they actually say one dozen years on leather only). They sell these leather paddle strops and chromox products and diamond pastes, but the stone they sell they don't even recommend.

My opinion is that TI's old world methods, romantic historic designs demand an old world skill set, patience and appreciation for potential challenges due to imperfection and uniqueness you get.
The straight razor may seem like a phallic object, but these french beauties are women with their charm, curve and character, and need to be well understood and approached carefully if you want to have a good go with them.

Thanks mattps1. Bought the leather. Bought the paste, chromox et al. Didn't work. When you say 'all but one were ok' I wonder what that one is as a percentage of the TI's that you own? 25%?
Are you saying the imperfection and uniqueness is unavoidable at manufacture? The folk on this forum have the skills to overcome those imperfections, so why can't the manufacturers?
I understand that if the manufacturing was up to the mark, we would not have the pleasure of learning these skills. But the requirement to learn those skills should be honestly declared by the manufacturer or purveyor.
If you buy a high end razor expecting it to shave it should shave. If later you need to learn to maintain it with arcane leather and chrome and not stones, that's another thing. I love maintaining things, hence the 52 yo motor vehicle, but if I'd bought that vehicle 52 years ago and needed to immediately, and time consumingly, and expensively, rectify faults by learning complex skills that would have been another thing.
Again, I don't buy a high end watch expecting to have to learn watchmaking skills. I love maintaining historic works of art. Just don't tell me when I pay top dollar for it that it is fit for function. Tell me that what I'm buying is a blank canvas on which to learn the art of honing. I'm ok with that. Just don't pretend your product is shave ready when it's not. But it's the C135 steel!! It's so hard!! Well why can't the manufacturer hone the steel they produce? The experts on this forum can!!

 

[Slash McCoy]

Thanks mattps1. Bought the leather. Bought the paste, chromox et al. Didn't work. When you say 'all but one were ok' I wonder what that one is as a percentage of the TI's that you own? 25%?
Are you saying the imperfection and uniqueness is unavoidable at manufacture? The folk on this forum have the skills to overcome those imperfections, so why can't the manufacturers?
I understand that if the manufacturing was up to the mark, we would not have the pleasure of learning these skills. But the requirement to learn those skills should be honestly declared by the manufacturer or purveyor.
If you buy a high end razor expecting it to shave it should shave. If later you need to learn to maintain it with arcane leather and chrome and not stones, that's another thing. I love maintaining things, hence the 52 yo motor vehicle, but if I'd bought that vehicle 52 years ago and needed to immediately, and time consumingly, and expensively, rectify faults by learning complex skills that would have been another thing.
Again, I don't buy a high end watch expecting to have to learn watchmaking skills. I love maintaining historic works of art. Just don't tell me when I pay top dollar for it that it is fit for function. Tell me that what I'm buying is a blank canvas on which to learn the art of honing. I'm ok with that. Just don't pretend your product is shave ready when it's not. But it's the C135 steel!! It's so hard!! Well why can't the manufacturer hone the steel they produce? The experts on this forum can!!

There are makers who hone every razor they make, such as Ralf Aust for example. Also Wacker, I believe. A few other smallish shops also, not remembering the names just now. Prices usually very competitive with TI or Dovo or Boker.

 

[Apositive]

There are makers who hone every razor they make, such as Ralf Aust for example. Also Wacker, I believe. A few other smallish shops also, not remembering the names just now. Prices usually very competitive with TI or Dovo or Boker.

Thanks Slash, and can I just take the opportunity to thank you for your pasted balsa posts that have made me able to shave daily with the Aust!
I've just received the Naniwa Chosera 1000 recommended to use by Gamma in place of my Shapton 1000 glass, and having put about an hour in with Lynn Abrams circles followed by sweeping X's I have got it the closest to shaving it's ever been - but still not good and nowhere near the Aust.
I know the answer is 'as long as it takes', but is there a rough estimate of how long to set a bevel on a TI, so I know when to stop and send it to H Brad Boonshaft for honing, which is the current plan?( I just had to give it one more go having received the new stone)

 

[Toothpick]

Haven't read this thread except for the first post.

I’ve tossed soaps after one use because they sucked. I’ve tossed blades after one use because they sucked. I’ve gave up a lot of things after one try because they sucked. Life is short, why waste time trying to make something work. I get it.

NO shame in doing so. Use what works for you, what you enjoy the most.

But I will say - if you think about it after learning some new techniques you should revisit what you disliked in the past. You might discover something you really enjoy now that you know how to use it, or know what technique works best.

 

[Slash McCoy]

Thanks Slash, and can I just take the opportunity to thank you for your pasted balsa posts that have made me able to shave daily with the Aust!
I've just received the Naniwa Chosera 1000 recommended to use by Gamma in place of my Shapton 1000 glass, and having put about an hour in with Lynn Abrams circles followed by sweeping X's I have got it the closest to shaving it's ever been - but still not good and nowhere near the Aust.
I know the answer is 'as long as it takes', but is there a rough estimate of how long to set a bevel on a TI, so I know when to stop and send it to H Brad Boonshaft for honing, which is the current plan?( I just had to give it one more go having received the new stone)

BGB (Big Green Brick) is a pretty good bevel setter. Be sure to lap it before use. It should have come to you "sorta" flat but probably isn't optimally flat.

There are a lot of wild cards there. Your honing pressure, for instance. Whether you hone in hand or on a bench. Stroke technique. presence or absence of slurry. How bad the factory bevel was. Your ability to recognize a burr or a completely set bevel. Seriously, it is impossible to say how long or how many laps it will take. Roll it in a very bright light, while looking at the edge and bevel faces through a proper honing loupe like the unmatched Belomo 10k Triplet. It is absolutely the best loupe for our purposes. Study those reflections. Do the thumbnail test. Cherry tomato test.

Sending it out is a good option, though. Once the bevel is properly set, further honing as needed will be simple. If it comes back sharp enough you can simply use your balsa. Be sure to tell your honer of choice your preference, tape or no tape.

 

[mattps1]

@Apositive sorry for delayed reply. If my earlier post was a bit aggressive apologies for that. We get a bit excited around here.
I've added some pictures to explain my current situation my poor 6/8 TI, and how I overcame it.

The 3 TI blades shown below on the other hand are all perfectly flat, and you'd want them to be given their cost. These are some of the 6-7/8 decorative designs. Based on the quality of these, I have full confidence in TI to make absolute quality blades and they have my continued support.

The blade pictured below with faux tortise-shell is the one I refer to in earlier post. It's edge doesnt sit square or flat, when I put on a flat hone the middle of the razor does not connect with the stones (Naniwa 3/5/12K set as shown below), and when honing it doesnt push the slurry along properly in the middle unless via cross/arc strokes or pushing down on it. The pushing down didn't make sense to me, it was wearing the main contact points more. It's possible after flattening out the spine, heal and toe, it might never correct the geometry, this is what you may have with yours now? The other blade with the wooden handle shown below is perfectly flat along the length of blade.

The picture below also shows their Thiers-Issard chromox pastes, applied to their 4-sided paddle strop. This 3-piece setup is not cheap, but it DOES work on this blade to get it very sharp in the center area where I failed with stones. I found cheaper Herold pastes don't do anything on the TI steel. It's my belief this is why they push this type of product so less than perfect edges can be sharpened easily without too much fuss. Eventually the bevel would need to be reset.

Below are some photos showing the state of the 6/8 blade, and how it's not on the same plane across the edge.

View #1 of centre of blade not connecting with square surface, both heel and toe end of blade touching perfectly. Shadow visible in center.

//End of post

 

[Frank Shaves]

I've just received the Naniwa Chosera 1000 recommended to use by Gamma in place of my Shapton 1000 glass, and having put about an hour in with Lynn Abrams circles followed by sweeping X's I have got it the closest to shaving it's ever been - but still not good and nowhere near the Aust.
I know the answer is 'as long as it takes', but is there a rough estimate of how long to set a bevel on a TI, so I know when to stop and send it to H Brad Boonshaft for honing, which is the current plan?( I just had to give it one more go having received the new stone)

I had a similar experience learning to set a bevel. First time, I spent two hours and nada. Then I came back the next day and spent another hour and began to feel some level of sharp. I watched all of the videos - Lynn, @Doc226 - and I still did not get it. Finally, I stumbled onto @relli1130's (JeffT's) Gold Dollar videos, starting with the bevel set video:

JeffT

www.youtube.com

Jeff talks about applying torque, and something clicked for me. Do remember that removing C135 may require a bit more work than the German steel.

 

[JPO]

@Apositive sorry for delayed reply. If my earlier post was a bit aggressive apologies for that. We get a bit excited around here.
I've added some pictures to explain my current situation my poor 6/8 TI, and how I overcame it.

The 3 TI blades shown below on the other hand are all perfectly flat, and you'd want them to be given their cost. These are some of the 6-7/8 decorative designs. Based on the quality of these, I have full confidence in TI to make absolute quality blades and they have my continued support.

View attachment 1325204

The blade pictured below with faux tortise-shell is the one I refer to in earlier post. It's edge doesnt sit square or flat, when I put on a flat hone the middle of the razor does not connect with the stones (Naniwa 3/5/12K set as shown below), and when honing it doesnt push the slurry along properly in the middle unless via cross/arc strokes or pushing down on it. The pushing down didn't make sense to me, it was wearing the main contact points more. It's possible after flattening out the spine, heal and toe, it might never correct the geometry, this is what you may have with yours now? The other blade with the wooden handle shown below is perfectly flat along the length of blade.

The picture below also shows their Thiers-Issard chromox pastes, applied to their 4-sided paddle strop. This 3-piece setup is not cheap, but it DOES work on this blade to get it very sharp in the center area where I failed with stones. I found cheaper Herold pastes don't do anything on the TI steel. It's my belief this is why they push this type of product so less than perfect edges can be sharpened easily without too much fuss. Eventually the bevel would need to be reset.

Below are some photos showing the state of the 6/8 blade, and how it's not on the same plane across the edge.

View attachment 1325196

View #1 of centre of blade not connecting with square surface, both heel and toe end of blade touching perfectly. Shadow visible in center.

View attachment 1325201


//End of post

I have had my eyes on this for some time, but it seems like you pay a price for the high edge retention. Only one way to find out. I have struggled with really hard steel. I get them really sharp, but less smooth then e.g. a Ralf Aust. Maybe they just require more time, CBN or some thing at the end. I have a hart steel razor that have caused some grief to. I have two hart razors, and the second one hones up just fine.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

The tortoise TI has a frown.

It could have been caused by honing with a straight stoke with pressure, excessive pasted stropping, honing on the stabilizer (if one) or tang, I have seen them come that way from the factory. I hone a lot of new TI & Dovo.

To properly correct the edge, you should make the edge straight and preferably the same blade width from heel to toe. Make the width the same as the lowest part of the frown. Or you could hone it toe heavy, (wider) and just remove a bit from the heel and reprofile the heel at the same time.

You will lose about a 32nd of width judging from the photo, but it will make it much easier to hone and provide a much better shaving edge.

If you use a straight stroke, like an Ax (Alex Gilmore) half stroke, use a slightly modified curved half stroke where the toe starts near the edge of the stone, but ends up in the middle of the stone. And only apply pressure on the edge leading stroke or lift the razor on the return stroke.

Always finish with single alternating X strokes to hone the heel and toe and create a slight smile.

If using aggressive paste like, Diamond or CBN do not use pressure.

 

[Apositive]

@Apositive sorry for delayed reply. If my earlier post was a bit aggressive apologies for that. We get a bit excited around here.
I've added some pictures to explain my current situation my poor 6/8 TI, and how I overcame it.

The 3 TI blades shown below on the other hand are all perfectly flat, and you'd want them to be given their cost. These are some of the 6-7/8 decorative designs. Based on the quality of these, I have full confidence in TI to make absolute quality blades and they have my continued support.

View attachment 1325204

The blade pictured below with faux tortise-shell is the one I refer to in earlier post. It's edge doesnt sit square or flat, when I put on a flat hone the middle of the razor does not connect with the stones (Naniwa 3/5/12K set as shown below), and when honing it doesnt push the slurry along properly in the middle unless via cross/arc strokes or pushing down on it. The pushing down didn't make sense to me, it was wearing the main contact points more. It's possible after flattening out the spine, heal and toe, it might never correct the geometry, this is what you may have with yours now? The other blade with the wooden handle shown below is perfectly flat along the length of blade.

The picture below also shows their Thiers-Issard chromox pastes, applied to their 4-sided paddle strop. This 3-piece setup is not cheap, but it DOES work on this blade to get it very sharp in the center area where I failed with stones. I found cheaper Herold pastes don't do anything on the TI steel. It's my belief this is why they push this type of product so less than perfect edges can be sharpened easily without too much fuss. Eventually the bevel would need to be reset.

Below are some photos showing the state of the 6/8 blade, and how it's not on the same plane across the edge.

View attachment 1325196

View #1 of centre of blade not connecting with square surface, both heel and toe end of blade touching perfectly. Shadow visible in center.

View attachment 1325201


//End of post

@Apositive sorry for delayed reply. If my earlier post was a bit aggressive apologies for that. We get a bit excited around here.
I've added some pictures to explain my current situation my poor 6/8 TI, and how I overcame it.

The 3 TI blades shown below on the other hand are all perfectly flat, and you'd want them to be given their cost. These are some of the 6-7/8 decorative designs. Based on the quality of these, I have full confidence in TI to make absolute quality blades and they have my continued support.

View attachment 1325204

The blade pictured below with faux tortise-shell is the one I refer to in earlier post. It's edge doesnt sit square or flat, when I put on a flat hone the middle of the razor does not connect with the stones (Naniwa 3/5/12K set as shown below), and when honing it doesnt push the slurry along properly in the middle unless via cross/arc strokes or pushing down on it. The pushing down didn't make sense to me, it was wearing the main contact points more. It's possible after flattening out the spine, heal and toe, it might never correct the geometry, this is what you may have with yours now? The other blade with the wooden handle shown below is perfectly flat along the length of blade.

The picture below also shows their Thiers-Issard chromox pastes, applied to their 4-sided paddle strop. This 3-piece setup is not cheap, but it DOES work on this blade to get it very sharp in the center area where I failed with stones. I found cheaper Herold pastes don't do anything on the TI steel. It's my belief this is why they push this type of product so less than perfect edges can be sharpened easily without too much fuss. Eventually the bevel would need to be reset.

Below are some photos showing the state of the 6/8 blade, and how it's not on the same plane across the edge.

View attachment 1325196

View #1 of centre of blade not connecting with square surface, both heel and toe end of blade touching perfectly. Shadow visible in center.

View attachment 1325201


//End of post

Hi mattps1,

I didn't think you were aggressive at all! And the pictures of your stunning TI's are very pleasing!

Well, after nearly 3 years of scratching away at my TI, I appear to have done it! Excellent shave 3 days in a row, hanging hair test on even my wife's fine hair - unbelievable!

Many people to thank. Gamma for suggesting the 1k Chosera rather than the Ik glass Shapton. H Brad Boonshaft, particularly for suggesting to not continue doing the same thing and expecting a different result! Frank Shaves for the matt t you tube clip, which really helped.

What I changed was to use a half stroke in a sweeping pattern with finger pressure on the blade (is this also called an Ax stroke?) on all the stones from the 1k Chosera to the 4000, 8000 glass shapton and even the 12000 Naniwa in a pyramid pattern, followed by sweeping x strokes at each level. For the first time ever as I got to the finishing x strokes on the 8000 and 12000 I felt significant suction of the blade on to the stone!

After the 1k Chosera bevel set I realised that what I had previously thought was a satisfactory thumb pad test wasn't, and my suggestion to another novice is that if you only THINK you have passed the thumb pad test, you haven't, because when you get it right it doesn't feel sharp, it feels completely different. But you all know this!

So I have a very usable TI, but with bad geometry at the heel thanks, no doubt, to 3 years of demented scratching in to the tang and bolster. I'll PM H Brad Boonshaft who had very kindly agreed to sort things out. I'm a bit reluctant to part with it right now as I'm actually enjoying using it.

Re the cheap Silver Dollar for novices to practice honing on, I wonder if what kept me persevering was the big financial investment I'd made in the TI, (combined with the fact I loved its looks and weight), and a reluctance to put it in the bin for that reason.

BTW, mattps1, how do you clean the tarnish off your TI's so they look shiny like yours? I can't believe I'm now able to worry about cosmetics and not just a bevel!

Thanks all!

 

[mattps1]

BTW, mattps1, how do you clean the tarnish off your TI's so they look shiny like yours? I can't believe I'm now able to worry about cosmetics and not just a bevel!

Thanks all!

Great news that your razor is now operable!

All of the razors I pictured are the mirror polished versions of the blade that TI issue. I'm hesitant to suggest what to use to restore that on the spine/Tang, my guess is a polishing/buffing wheel and buffing compound, and that would involve removing the scales etc.

 

[Frank Shaves]

Congrats, @Apositive - great news!

 

[APBinNCA]

Wow, I guess this thread needs to be called Thiers Issard in the rotation!
It has risen from the dead

 

[haggis]

As a newbie (but long-term forum denizen, if not here specifically) I really appreciate when folks follow up on their experiences like this, especially when there are learnings. It's a respectful of those who help and it's practical information for those in the future who face similar predicaments. Well done sir!

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Michael, did you reprofile the heel, as in the Jeff T video, good video?


That is one way to correct the heel, but you can do it with a diamond plate and high angle strokes, just about as fast, the steel is super thin at the edge and comes off quick.

Only recommendation is to use a coin or large washer to draw the radius then work to the line. Reprofiling the heel moves the corner of the edge, well away from the stabilizer and allows the razor to sit flat on the stone.

Dremel’s are great tools and can be very useful, I use them all the time, But if you are going to buy one, buy a variable speed and use it at the slowest speed for a lot more control. A single speed Dremel is dangerous, way too fast, imagine if you had a chain saw that was either off or on.

Cordless is nice, batteries last a long time, add a flex shaft for way better control & comfort, cordless with a flex shaft is a super tool.

 

[Apositive]

Thanks @H Brad Boonshaft. I think now I've got this thing shaving I will have a go at altering the heel geometry myself, and thanks for the links. I'll let you know if I'm struggling! I might leave it a week or so, as I'm still amazed I can shave with the thing and want to enjoy it before I muck it up again!
I can't believe I'm saying this, but having seen the mirrored finishes in @mattps1 's TI's, I'm very tempted. But I might try something simpler first. Like forging my own damascus steel broadsword.

 

[tanvir]

Easy fix.

You are honing on the tang and stabilizer, (Red Arrow) because the heel corner is too far back, which caused the wonky bevel. The heel half of the edge is not on the stone fully. It is not a warp issue, note the thin bevel in the middle and that the spine wear is the same on both sides. If it was warped the spine and bevel wear would be the opposite on each side.

First correct the heel and move the heel corner ,(Pink Arrow)well forward of the stabilizer, similar to the altered photo with a Blue Circle overlayed on the corner. Note how the heel is now well forward of the stabilizer, (Blue Arrow).

A diamond plate will easily reprofile the heel, use a coin or large washer and a sharpie to mark a new radius so the corner is a ¼ inch forward of the stabilizer, this will keep the whole edge on the stone fully. The steel is thin at the corner and steel will be removed quickly. If you need to remark the radius, WD40 on a paper towel will remove the ink.

Riding on the tang lifts the heel half of the edge off the stone, so you applied more pressure and ground the heel end of the spine excessively, but the heel part of the edge is off the stone. If you do not correct the heel the same thing will happen and the sharp heel will turn in to a heel hook and cut you.

Once the heel is reshaped, put 2 layers of tape on the spine to compensate for the steel that has been ground off, ink and reset the bevel on a 1k. Do not use too much pressure or you will as said flex the blade and lift the edge off the stone. Ink will tell you if you are using too much pressure and lifting the edge off the stone.

Watch your tape and replace if you burn through. Watch your honing stroke to ensure you are not riding on the tang. Your bevel should be ground flat and relatively even, may not be completely even due to uneven grinding of the stone, but the bevels will come together and shave well.


View attachment 1322879

This is an old post but one of the best tip on regular razor maintenance. I checked few of the vintage razors that don't have much spine wear on them plus a NOS Paul Drees Sistrum. Look like they all took American Penny and used it to form the radius from the inner portion of the stabilizer to the base of the edge. I also took couple of razors with heavy spine wear. I guessed the width of the spine wear is kind of proportional to the edge wear. Not knowing what the original profile was, I put the penny against the stabilizer and move moved it downward the width of spine wear. The leftover curve from the heal matches the curvature of the penny. A dime will have less shift of the edge but one cent coin is just about right. I think anything bigger (like a nickel) will move the edge too much.

Incredible. That means the razor profile can be easily kept in like new condition compensating for wear to the edge for a very long time plus don't have to worry about sharpening or stropping heal edge that is directly under stabilizer.

Thank you H Brad Boonshaft.

 

[Steve56]

Honing the stabilizer/shoulder is not a good thing.

If running the razor too far up on the stone hits the stabilizer, you can simply avoid honing the stabilizer by good honing technique.

Patient: ‘Doctor, it hurts when I do this’.
Doctor: ‘Don’t do that’

The problem with this approach is that if you avoid honing the stabilizer by technique, you’ll develop a heel hook before long, so best to relieve the heel. The modern Thiers-Issard seem to have done that very well for you, but some vintage Henckels seem to have been made with the stabilizer down to the edge. I also have a couple of NOS late CVH made that way.

 

[tanvir]

Honing the stabilizer/shoulder is not a good thing.

If running the razor too far up on the stone hits the stabilizer, you can simply avoid honing the stabilizer by good honing technique.

Patient: ‘Doctor, it hurts when I do this’.
Doctor: ‘Don’t do that’

The problem with this approach is that if you avoid honing the stabilizer by technique, you’ll develop a heel hook before long, so best to relieve the heel. The modern Thiers-Issard seem to have done that very well for you, but some vintage Henckels seem to have been made with the stabilizer down to the edge. I also have a couple of NOS late CVH made that way.

Absolutely. I just got a Robeson full hollow razor today that does not appear to have any hone wear. However the edge is right under the stabilizer. I am just going to take the penny, slide it until it flush against the outside stabilizer wall and the edge. Draw a sharpie line. Grind away so the edge will be around 3mm to left of inside stabilizer edge. That will nicely move the edge away from the stabilizer so during honing and stropping, stabilizer will be 2-3mm away from the hone.

Will this not also relieve the heal? If after many sharpening sessions, the edge begin moving toward the heal, give it Lincoln treatment again?

Collective knowledge of members here is great. Thank you for your input.