The three German WWII 7.65 pistols: the beginnings

[jar_]

As mentioned, some of the differences are relatively minor while others were more significant. Among the ones I consider relatively minor are the variations in sights since they are all at least adequate. They are all pretty much fixed front and drift-able windage rear with some form of anti reflective surface on the top of the slide.

PP:

38h:

HSc:

All three use some form of latch mechanism in the trigger guard for take down. The most familiar is the Walther where the trigger guard is hinged and spring loaded. You pull it down and to the side then you can pull the slide back, up and off.

The Sauer 38h is similar but instead of pulling down the whole trigger guard there is a nice "T" shaped block you pull down.

With the PP and 38h the procedure is pretty routine, pull magazine, check chamber, then release the latch and separate the pieces parts. It's all familiar and comforting.

The HSc though is really nerve racking and discomforting. First, the magazine MUST be in the frame. Second, the hammer must be cocked. Third, the take down latch is a tiny little spring loaded catch inside the trigger guard. Finally the safety must be in the "Safe" position. This means you first need to remove the magazine and rack the slide. Make sure that the chamber is empty and the magazine empty. The slide locks back if the magazine is empty or there is no magazine and there is no slide release so you then have to put the magazine back into the frame. As soon as it seats it will sling the slide closed. Then make sure the hammer is back, the safety is in the "Safe" mode, reach into the trigger guard and while depressing that tiny latch pull the slide slightly forward and lift up.

Note that unlike the other two the barrel is not fixed but rather latches into the frame when the slide and frame are mated. And the recoil spring is a bear, there is almost no clearance when reassembling it and every edge you can push against is sharp. Of course. Once you get the barrel and recoil spring back in place though all you do is put the slide on the frame, push down and back and that little spring loaded latch locks everything in place.

Another major difference is in how each design dealt with the issue of lowering the hammer on a live round. The PP used a hammer block design where putting the safety in the "Safe" mode rotated two pieces out past the firing pin so a hammer would get blocked. It would also drop the hammer on a live round.

The 38h has the nicest solution although it is also the most complex. It has a slide to decock the hammer and return to DA mode that is found on all the P series Sig Sauers today. But Wait... there's more. If you swipe it again it will also recock the internal hammer and place the trigger in SA mode.

In DA mode:

and swipe again and it's in SA mode:

As mentioned above, the HSc design is really well thought out but also really unnerving and I fear may have lead to more than a few NDs. With the HSc in the cocked position you can either lower the hammer manually or use the system provided. With the hammer in the cocked position you put the safety in "Safe" mode but then just pull the trigger. Forget or fail to get the safety in "Safe" mode and you get hopefully just get surprised. The system really is safe though but there is no way to visually see to made sure all is Kosher. In the HSc putting the safety in "Safe" mode lifts the end of the firing pin up above where the hammer will strike. It works but still seems unnerving.

HSc cocked:

HSc uncocked:

The heel release was mentioned as another area where it was difficult. I don't find it bad on mine but I do make sure it's maintained. But remember the magazine release on the Mauser 1914 that tended to get caught on stuff or jammed by dirt and debris?

In the HSc they designed one with few places debris could get in and few chances of it catching on anything. It is actually one of the better heel release solutions in my pistols. BUT it is also small, with rounded edges and particularly when full somewhat stiff.

Remember that none of them have an external slide release. The PP and HSc lock open on an empty magazine, the 38h does not. With the PP if you remove the magazine or insert a loaded magazine you can then slingshot the slide forward. With the 38h you put in a loaded magazine and pull the slide back and release. Once again though the HSc is an outlier. When the slide is locked back. inserting a new magazine either empty or loaded causes the slide to close. This means after you finish shooting for the day, you have to insert an empty magazine before it will go into battery.

Lastly in this post the HSc and the 38h both have a magazine disconnect. The PP does not.

Next up; shooting, ergonomics and evaluation.

 

[jar_]

Wrapping this up.

Took all three to the range this morning but Customs had the range reserved already. That tends to happen so I said I'd goo get breakfast and come back later. Got back around lunch time and all but one lane was already taken by another group, this time senior citizens. Nice to see folk almost as old as me at the line. All were concentrating and seriously working at the craft, no one playing around and I didn't see any examples of a bang when the paper didn't also move.

I set up on the one open lane and ran a target out to seven yards, about the reasonable distance considering these sight and my Mark 1.0 eyes.

I had a box an a half of ammo so planed on doing fifty rounds with each pistol. Put a pad out with a pen to keep track of any FTEs, FTFs or missed paper.

First up was the Manurhin Walther PP. I loaded five rounds at a time and started each magazine in DA mode. The result was fifty rounds in about a five inch grouping with no fliers, no FTEs, no FTFs. Pretty boring.

Next was the JP Sauer 38h. Again, fifty rounds, five rounds per magazine, each magazine started in DA mode. The results were pretty much the same except I had one FTF. Since to the best of my knowledge the springs in this magazine were installed back in 1942 I'm going to blame the spring related and not the pistol.

Finally the Mauser HSc got its turn; fifty rounds, five round per magazine and start each string in DA mode. I gotta admit that putting the HSc in DA mode, even though I understood how the safety worked and had fully checked to make sure it really was working and knowing it had always worked in the past still bothered me. I hope that it will continue to bother me for as long as I own the pistol. The result though was a whole bunch of holes all pretty much hanging out together and no FTEs or FTFs.

I feel. The Walther and Sauer both feel very similar; the HSc feels like the grip need to by about a quarter inch longer. It's fine and I can get all my fingers on the grip but the pinky is right on the lib of the magazine.

After all was done and I was packing up to come home there was one last bit of excitement. I had never tried putting the HSc in my old Bianchi 215 Shoulder Holster that does have a thumb strap so I gave that a try. It fit and the strap covered the rear but when I leaned over it slipped out, onto the carpet and out on the line. There were just two of us still there and the gentleman was on the lane just to my left and had brought in his target to go get lunch, so we both laughed and he stepped back while I crawled under the shelf to retrieve the errant child. Lesson learned that the 215 with that holster does not work with the HSc. Fortunately I am not holster deprived.

So which did I most enjoy?

The Mauser HSc was the most accurate of the three and the JP Sauer 38h the most intuitive shooter and easiest to switch back to DA. The Walther though was just soulless; everything worked and it was acceptably accurate and it's a well respected brand and ... just never ever rated a smirk much less a smile. I guess there's a reason the my PP and PPK/s don't go WalkAbout as often as the tiny Model 4.

But as expected, I had absolutely no issues with feed and the HSc. I couldn't remember any but wanted to test again before saying anything.

Now to find and replace a 38h magazine spring or maybe all three while I have them apart.

 

[OkieStubble]

Nice range report. This has been an great and awesome thread; and even a greater history lesson. I won't ever own any of those guns, so I realize, it doesn't get any better then this, right here, right now.

I'm sure we could google this kind of info or check out a library book. And it would have been a horribly boring read. I'm telling you @jar_ the personal touch you put on these history lessons from your experience of owning them, and your easy nature, makes this an amazingly and wonderfully easy; and fun to read.

Keeping readers transfixed to what you are saying is a gift. And I absolutely appreciate it, while at the same time, want more of it.

 

[KUfan]

Pardon my not knowing, but is the 7.65 pistol cartridge the same as what the 7.65 Mauser bolt rifle used? My Woolworth sporting goods career exposed me to many military surplus rifles from WW2, with the 7.65 rifle being a volume seller, along with ammo. Those things arrived at the store in wooden crates, each gun came in a crap cardboard box, wrapped in craft paper and slathered with gobs of cosmoleen. The metal parts of those firearms would be rust-free a century from now. It took some time to get one cleaned up for display. Many a deer were shot out here in Nebraska with those 7.65 Mausers.

 

[jar_]

Pardon my not knowing, but is the 7.65 pistol cartridge the same as what the 7.65 Mauser bolt rifle used? My Woolworth sporting goods career exposed me to many military surplus rifles from WW2, with the 7.65 rifle being a volume seller, along with ammo. Those things arrived at the store in wooden crates, each gun came in a crap cardboard box, wrapped in craft paper and slathered with gobs of cosmoleen. The metal parts of those firearms would be rust-free a century from now. It took some time to get one cleaned up for display. Many a deer were shot out here in Nebraska with those 7.65 Mausers.

Nope. This is the Browing 7.65 cartridge, AkA 32acp; 7.65x17 vs 7.65x55 IIRC.

 

[Ron991]

Numerous countries were cranking out handguns during WW1, as there was a need for them. My Grandfather carried this old Paramount "Brunswig" .32 cal. along with a M1911 in those trenches in the European theater in WW1....Spanish made....Every now and then I put a few rounds through it.

 

[jar_]

Numerous countries were cranking out handguns during WW1, as there was a need for them. My Grandfather carried this old Paramount "Brunswig" .32 cal. along with a M1911 in those trenches in the European theater in WW1....Spanish made....Every now and then I put a few rounds through it.View attachment 1052227

The Ruby's were another interesting lesson from the Great War. In particular, the contrast between the two WWI guns, the Ruby and the 1911. The Ruby is a simplified copy of the Colt 1903 without the grip safety and with the manual safety moved forward. It was made by just about every one of the Spanish Eibar region to a common design specification. But the resulting gun pieces parts were almost always NOT interchangeable between versions from different makers. Even the magazines were not interchanable and so each maker stamped both frame and magazine with an maker's mark. The 1911 was also made by many different companies but there was a far higher level of standardization. Most pieces part could be swapped between makes. With the Ruby, a damaged magazine put the gun out of commission until another magazine from that maker was sourced.

Your model was most likely a civilian Ruby and not one that was adopted by the French military.

 

[REV579]

Here is a Mauser.

 

[jar_]

Here is a Mauser.
View attachment 1052296View attachment 1052318

The P38 is another example of lessons learned from the Great War and like the Colt 1911 it was made to a common set of blueprints and while a sample might be made by Walther (the originator) or Mauser or Spreewerk the parts were standardized and interchangeable. After the war the model continued with an aluminum alloy frame and there are some parts that do not interchange between the steel framed and the alloy frame models.

I have to admit that my P38 may well be my most enjoyable semi-automatic to shoot. It's one that begs to be shot one handed in the Colt SAA mode; aim, fire, rock up , rock down; repeat as necessary. It was interesting that the Lugers and P08s and C96s that were captured during WWII were trophy's while the P38 was immediately placed back in action.

 

[OkieStubble]

The P38 is another example of lessons learned from the Great War and like the Colt 1911 it was made to a common set of blueprints and while a sample might be made by Walther (the originator) or Mauser or Spreewerk the parts were standardized and interchangeable. After the war the model continued with an aluminum alloy frame and there are some parts that do not interchange between the steel framed and the alloy frame models.

I have to admit that my P38 may well be my most enjoyable semi-automatic to shoot. It's one that begs to be shot one handed in the Colt SAA mode; aim, fire, rock up , rock down; repeat as necessary. It was interesting that the Lugers and P08s and C96s that were captured during WWII were trophy's while the P38 was immediately placed back in action.

Nice knife, cool handle. Kinda blows my mind there were pistols using striker pins and aluminum alloy back then.

 

[Bhugo]

Nice knife, cool handle. Kinda blows my mind there were pistols using striker pins and aluminum alloy back then.

Same here. I figured that was all recently developed.

 

[jar_]

Same here. I figured that was all recently developed.

Actually the major competitor and handgun that came in second in the 1907 US Army Pistol trials was striker fired, the Savage 1907 model in 45acp. It dropped out of the trials when it became obvious that the Trials would require building a whole line to produce enough samples and as a relatively small company with no current Government Contracts made what I see as the wise move to drop out of an unlikely future contract and concentrate on the consumer market where it was fantastically successful.

My Savage 1907 that was made in 1913.

It's striker fired, dual stack magazine, was available in 32acp or 380 and was the HiCap handgun of the period. What looks like a hammer spur is actually a manual cocker for the striker. The whole gun can be completely stripped using no tools beyond a punch for some pins. The whole firing block assembly could also be removed and was removed for field striping.

And take a look at the striker spring.

The US didn't go with the Savage but did go with Colt 1911s, 1903s and the New Service/1917 revolver from Colt but France and Belgium and the British all purchased some of the Savage 1906s.

 

[Kilroy6644]

I've got a P1 (the post-war alloy-framed P38), and it's great. I've never shot a steel-framed P38, so I can't compare the two. But for me, it's the best of both worlds. You get a great gun with a classic design, but without the premium price of the wartime model, and very little association with the Nazis.

 

[Bhugo]

Actually the major competitor and handgun that came in second in the 1907 US Army Pistol trials was striker fired, the Savage 1907 model in 45acp. It dropped out of the trials when it became obvious that the Trials would require building a whole line to produce enough samples and as a relatively small company with no current Government Contracts made what I see as the wise move to drop out of an unlikely future contract and concentrate on the consumer market where it was fantastically successful.

My Savage 1907 that was made in 1913.

It's striker fired, dual stack magazine, was available in 32acp or 380 and was the HiCap handgun of the period. What looks like a hammer spur is actually a manual cocker for the striker. The whole gun can be completely stripped using no tools beyond a punch for some pins. The whole firing block assembly could also be removed and was removed for field striping.

And take a look at the striker spring.

The US didn't go with the Savage but did go with Colt 1911s, 1903s and the New Service/1917 revolver from Colt but France and Belgium and the British all purchased some of the Savage 1906s.

Sweet pistol! What is the capacity?

 

[jar_]

Sweet pistol! What is the capacity?

In 32acp it was 10 + 1 and in 380 it was 9 + 1. The company advertising was "Ten rounds fast." Remember this was when most revolvers were five rounds and the semis mostly 8 rounds.

 

[REV579]

The P38 is another example of lessons learned from the Great War and like the Colt 1911 it was made to a common set of blueprints and while a sample might be made by Walther (the originator) or Mauser or Spreewerk the parts were standardized and interchangeable. After the war the model continued with an aluminum alloy frame and there are some parts that do not interchange between the steel framed and the alloy frame models.

I have to admit that my P38 may well be my most enjoyable semi-automatic to shoot. It's one that begs to be shot one handed in the Colt SAA mode; aim, fire, rock up , rock down; repeat as necessary. It was interesting that the Lugers and P08s and C96s that were captured during WWII were trophy's while the P38 was immediately placed back in action.

I have no intent on taking us off track, I would like to point out that my grandfather's 1943 '03-A3(one of 3 rifles I hunt with) was made by Smith-Corona. The second is a also a Mauser, a 98. It was summarily repurposed to hunt with until it was then converted into a 25-06.
The open slide design of the P38 and so many others is really field friendly. My brother got the Dreyse Model 1907 and my sister got the P-08. The Dreyse is also 7.65 striker-fired pistol and was put into use during later stages of WWII.

 

[shoelessjoe]

...my grandfather's 1943 '03-A3(one of 3 rifles I hunt with) was made by Smith-Corona. The second is a also a Mauser, a 98...The open slide design of the P38 and so many others is really field friendly.

Had a tack-driving Smith Corona 2-groove 03-A3 that I traded for a bamboo fly rod back in the mid-90s & only recently replaced it with a (04/1943) 4-groove Remington ‘A3.

Savage (& some say, High Standard) supplied Smith Corona with 6-groove (i.e., lands) barrels, many of which were used on 1943 03-A3s & High Standard produced 2 & 4-groove barrels for Smith Corona.

Way back when, I recall reading something along the lines of, ‘Back in WW1, the Germans fought with a hunting rifle; the Americans with a target rifle & the Brits, with those butter-smooth Enfield actions, a battle rifle.’

No surprise that when W. Germany was allowed to resurrect their armed forces, it was Walther’s P-38 that they sought out ... building a new facility, the Walthers would churn out P-38s (P-1s) from the mid-‘50s, well into the 1990s ... fondle many Sigs, Berettas, Rugers, S&Ws & you’re fondling the legacy of Hungarian, Pal Kiraly’s KD Danuva & Carl Walther’s subsequent (lock-breech - D/A - decocker, etc) PP & P-38 pistols.