the Rocnel Sailor thread

[Star_Wahl_Clipper_Treker]

I would love to see a factory tour video, it would be educational for everyone, and, it would be entertaining as well. One of the things that sold me on the Rex Ambassador, was that 20 minute video from Matt the CEO of Rex himself. We need more CEO's in the industry showing off their own products. And with companies that offer lifetime warranties, it also helps to ease the mind on the purchase.

When you have a company making a razor that costs 500 or more, but no factory tour, no video from the CEO, it doesn't build a feeling of confidence. So yes, anyone with pull in here, see if you can contact the CEO and get them to upload some video's to Youtube.

 

[BanjoCowboyMartaTobes]

I don’t know what else I can say short of driving to your house and putting this razor in your hand.

PM’ing address now buddy.

 

[macintoshBR]

Todays rate is 1 USD = 14.64 Lira, so yeah the dollar it still has loads of buying power.

That just tells one part of the story. inflation rate is 65%, officially. More like >100% in practice. Yes, the lira is nearly worthless currently, but Turkey is a net importer and has always been, so there’s so much you can do with a dollar. A liter of gasoline sells today for 19 liras ($1.30), vs 8 ($0.60) liras in December 2021 and 6 ($0.80) liras a year ago. That’s >100% increase (in dollar terms!) vs 4 months ago. Let that sink in for a moment

The locals aren‘t paying 7,320 TL for a luxury razor in Turkey even when their economy is great and it’s not so great nowadays.

False, again. Two local retailers used to sell Rocnel razors and price was the same as in euros, just converted to TL. No wonder why they stopped carrying the razor. You can also buy from Rocnel’s own website to deliver domestically. Again the price is the same and in euros.

A quick Browse through the Turkish forums will show you that Rocnel doesn’t get a lot of local support because nearly no one in Turkey has the means to afford what they charge. Their market is US and EU buyers, and also the Turkish diaspora.

 

[macintoshBR]

Not in the 1970's/80's my friend...and we were guests of our Turkish hosts as well. Or have you been?

Ok, but you should have said 1970s. $6/7 would buy you a lot more also in the USA. Thanks for clarifying this important aspect. $6/7 today might get you to the restaurant by taxi, or cover the tips to the waiters after dinner. Not a lot more than that

also, your Turkish friends might have covered your bills. This is common practice dictated by Turkish culture. Hosts will go out of their way to make sure their guests (“misafir”) are fine

 

[Mr. Shavington]

Absolutely not; simply an interested guy looking for his next DE purchase. When I started researching the razor online, nothing but glowing reviews on the shave boards and an OS website. No manufacturing videos, no interviews, no site tours which spiked my curiosity…why not? Most small boutique manufacturing companies jump at any opportunity to promote their products across multiple platforms and mediums. If anybody would have toured the company it would most likely be somebody on these boards.

Rocnel is a small operation. According to their website they make 3 razors per week - so about 150 per year. Maybe it is more now, but not much. I would guess there are maybe 500 Sailors in existence, for all versions combined. The reputation is based on word of mouth on forums like this.

They currently only use one retailer - Bullgoose in America - and Bullgoose seems to get small shipments a few times a year, which they sell very fast. Most of the sales are direct from Murat via the Rocnel Instagram account and messaging him, and payment was by Western Union money transfer, which requires some trust. Paypal doesn’t operate in Turkey. It isn’t exactly easy to get one but he still sells everything he makes and I’ve never seen a complaint.

The Rocnel website wasn’t really operational in the past, but it looks like Murat has now made it possible to buy through the site. That is nice, but I can also imagine it won’t be long before there are waiting lists or frenzied drops that sell out in 30 seconds, like other sought-after vendors had.

You can find some videos on Rocnel’s Instagram and YouTube channels, but I don’t think there is anything like a tour of his manufacturing. The registered address for Rocnel seems to be a semi-residential building with a general store at the front (see pic from Google streetview). Maybe it is a small workshop with tooling in the back, but I have no idea. From reading Murat’s posts recently my sense is that he makes some razors entirely himself, but mainly the components are made by different workshops / factories and he has a small team, including himself who assembles and finishes them. But I don’t really know (and I only care about the end product).

He has tended to upgrade the Sailor design every six months so it must be a very hands-on, small volume operation with Murat doing constant R&D and changing the process / components between production batches. For example, he just announced that the upcoming 2022L Sailor model (generation 8) increases the number of components from 9 to 14, includes an adjustable ball locking system produced in Germany for removal of the lower handle section, and critical surfaces are finished on a lapping machine for greater precision. His website is taking pre-orders for the 2022L with May delivery.

As I say, the Sailor is arguably the best made razor in the world. To me it is on a level all by itself for engineering and quality. I think it says something that we even have people talking about it when it is such a small production, not advertised and almost no retailers, was so hard to buy, and made in Turkey (which I’ll agree is not the first place you think of for premium engineering and manufacturing). It only gained this reputation because it is so good.

Did Britain have a reputation for premium automobile production before Charles Rolls and Henry Royce started their business?

 

[Star_Wahl_Clipper_Treker]

Rocnel is a small operation. According to their website they make 3 razors per week - so about 150 per year. Maybe it is more now, but not much. I would guess there are maybe 500 Sailors in existence, for all versions combined. The reputation is based on word of mouth on forums like this.

They currently only use one retailer - Bullgoose in America - and Bullgoose seems to get small shipments a few times a year, which they sell very fast. Most of the sales are direct from Murat via the Rocnel Instagram account and messaging him, and payment was by Western Union money transfer, which requires some trust. Paypal doesn’t operate in Turkey. It isn’t exactly easy to get one but he still sells everything he makes and I’ve never seen a complaint.

The Rocnel website wasn’t really operational in the past, but it looks like Murat has now made it possible to buy through the site. That is nice, but I can also imagine it won’t be long before there are waiting lists or frenzied drops that sell out in 30 seconds, like other sought-after vendors had.

You can find some videos on Rocnel’s Instagram and YouTube channels, but I don’t think there is anything like a tour of his manufacturing. The registered address for Rocnel seems to be a semi-residential building with a general store at the front (see pic from Google streetview). Maybe it is a small workshop with tooling in the back, but I have no idea. From reading Murat’s posts recently my sense is that he makes some razors entirely himself, but mainly the components are made by different workshops / factories and he has a small team, including himself who assembles and finishes them. But I don’t really know (and I only care about the end product).

He has tended to upgrade the Sailor design every six months so it must be a very hands-on, small volume operation with Murat doing constant R&D and changing the process / components between production batches. For example, he just announced that the upcoming 2022L Sailor model (generation 8) increases the number of components from 9 to 14, includes an adjustable ball locking system produced in Germany for removal of the lower handle section, and critical surfaces are finished on a lapping machine for greater precision. His website is taking pre-orders for the 2022L with May delivery.

As I say, the Sailor is arguably the best made razor in the world. To me it is on a level all by itself for engineering and quality. I think it says something that we even have people talking about it when it is such a small production, not advertised and almost no retailers, was so hard to buy, and made in Turkey (which I’ll agree is not the first place you think of for premium engineering and manufacturing). It only gained this reputation because it is so good.

Did Britain have a reputation for premium automobile production before Charles Rolls and Henry Royce started their business?

View attachment 1441240

Thank you for the excellent information, I am actually impressed with your post! I took a look at their website, it still looks brand new and under construction, because there are a few things they haven't customized, from the template they used to create their website pages. They also need to take better pictures of their razors, if they really want to sell the sheer beauty that they are. I've seen Chan's photo's here on B&B, so thats how I know how beautiful it is.

I think its cool that they are taking pre-orders for August, however, it is certainly a deal breaker that they don't offer Paypal, they should improve upon that. I do think its neat that they hand make the master collection, this means there will be attention to detail when constructing them, as they won't be spit out an assembly line, where all matter of defects could happen. Fascinating stuff this Rocnel company, I just wish they were more globally compatible.

Anyways, good research on your end!

 

[Mr. Shavington]

Thank you for the excellent information, I am actually impressed with your post! I took a look at their website, it still looks brand new and under construction, because there are a few things they haven't customized, from the template they used to create their website pages. They also need to take better pictures of their razors, if they really want to sell the sheer beauty that they are. I've seen Chan's photo's here on B&B, so thats how I know how beautiful it is.

I think its cool that they are taking pre-orders for August, however, it is certainly a deal breaker that they don't offer Paypal, they should improve upon that. I do think its neat that they hand make the master collection, this means there will be attention to detail when constructing them, as they won't be spit out an assembly line, where all matter of defects could happen. Fascinating stuff this Rocnel company, I just wish they were more globally compatible.

Anyways, good research on your end!

Yeah, the Paypal thing is a problem and it is because Paypal does not process payments to Turkey. I believe Murat previously explored using an intermediary in the EU to receive and forward payments and allow Paypal as an option. And he has talked about relocating his business to Germany. In the meantime anybody who wanted to buy a Sailor has had to be very determined and prepared to jump through hoops (and, honestly, take a risk and trust Murat entirely) in order to pay. For some it was also costly - like the guy in this thread who it cost $800 to buy a $690 razor. But we did it and were happy we did. From where I am the Western Union fees to Turkey were just a few dollars, so it wasn’t too bad, but there was no comeback if Murat didn’t send a razor.

I don’t know how payments will work on his new website. But, as I say, part of me doesn’t want it to be too easy because then if the demand increases it will get harder to buy one before they sell out.

 

[Possum092]

Great sleuthing. Exactly what peaked my inquiries. I wondered how does one run a manufacturing line inside a residential building (the tumbling process alone would drive the residents crazy), why doesn’t the business accept international payments or credit cards like other Turkish businesses, why no videos of the manufacturing process for the world’s most highly regarded razor, and why would a business constrain themselves to making just three razors a week in a struggling economy? When you run a production line, you don’t just machine three handles and turn off the tooling for a week or only order enough stock to make 12 razors a month. Turks are some of the shrewdest, hardest working, business savory, and enterprising folks I ever met so thats why I had questions.

 

[Mr. Shavington]

Great sleuthing. Exactly what peaked my inquiries. I wondered how does one run a manufacturing line inside a residential building (the tumbling process alone would drive the residents crazy), why doesn’t the business accept international payments or credit cards like other Turkish businesses, why no videos of the manufacturing process for the world’s most highly regarded razor, and why would a business constrain themselves to making just three razors a week in a struggling economy? When you run a production line, you don’t just machine three handles and turn off the tooling for a week or only order enough stock to make 12 razors a month. Turks are some of the shrewdest, hardest working, business savory, and enterprising folks I ever met so thats why I had questions.

I can’t say if the picture is really where he makes the razors, but it does look like a semi-residential, semi-industrial/retail complex that might have some small businesses and workshops. Or maybe it is just where his office is.

I think Murat does have the components made in batches. But it sounds like these days components are increasingly farmed out to different workshops and no longer entirely made end-to-end in-house.

I guess part of the answer to your questions is that Murat doesn’t need to spend time promoting his business or showing the production process, since everything he makes sells immediately and his customer base is very engaged. Another reason would be that his razors and production method are constantly changing and upgrading. He is not like most razor producers who release a model and it stays the same until it is replaced by a new model. Murat is continually developing the Sailor and when he develops an improvement he incorporates it into his next production batch. It’s like an ongoing project rather than a single model, and I quite enjoy that he is so enthusiastic about the Sailor project that he never stops working on it.

He does post on Instagram fairly regularly, and when there is something new in the pipeline he tends to show it - like for example the solid gold adjustment rings he had custom made last year for a particular special edition, or the last YouTube video he put up which shows the new removable handle section with the ball joint (pretty cool, actually and you can see the quality ‘click’ it makes when you snap it in). If you follow this stuff over time you pick up some clues about the way he works. I guess he thinks that’s plenty for what he needs and to keep his customers in the picture.

Here is the most recent video showing the upcoming 2022L Sailor and demostrating the new ball joint.

He does have some old videos on his channel showing production work. He did a whole series of these but that was five years ago and I’m sure things have changed a lot since then. Still quite interesting, though. You can browse through his other videos if you are interested.

 

[Mr. Shavington]

Actually, @Possum092 I think your questions have prompted me to dig a bit deeper and find out some of this stuff, which is starting to make an interesting addition to the thread.

I still think you shouldn’t be so sceptical about Rocnel, though. A great business can be built anywhere in the world if the owner has the talent and dedication. This is not some guy who is making razors sitting on a stool with a small table at the back of his shoe repair stall in the bazaar. I don’t think American or Canadian razor makers get the same scepticism, even though neither America nor Canada has a particularly strong international reputation for premium manufacturing, like Germany or Japan or maybe Italy do. And I’m sure there are also people producing utter garbage in Germany and Japan. It is the individual business that matters, and what they produce, not where in the world they are.

Like I say, if you hold one of these razors in your hand you cannot mistake the exceptional quality.

 

[Phoenixkh]

The Rocnel Sailor certainly looks like a quality product. I would like to hold one in my hand one day. Adjustables don't hold an appeal to me, but they sure are popular.

There are a few of them out there that are just beautiful..and the Rocnel sure appears to be a the very top.

 

[Scaramouche]

I can confirm the workmanship on the Sailor - it's a precision device, design and build. Assorted quirks, well reported here, largely due to the almost hand-assembled nature and the maker continually developing and improving it I believe, but certainly not a cut-rate product (in the bazaar you get what you walk away with - caveat emptor). It really is one of the finest adjustables made IMO.

 

[Phoenixkh]

Let's run the numbers.... 150 razors a year... let's pick a high number on purpose... say $700 a piece (and I know, the less decorated models are cheaper). That a gross amount of $105,000.... what would be your guess on labor and materials? Can it be less than 40% of the total cost? @40%, the net profit would be $63,000 for a year.... not king wages, even in Turkey. So Murat isn't getting rich... let's reduce the labor/material costs even farther, say 30%.... so a net of 73,500. Again, for what he's delivering... he's making a decent living in Turkey, but hardly stealing anyone's money. No one complains about the quality.... just a few quirks here or there... and some people are annoyed he keeps improving the product. I guess that has some merit as their razor has a bit less value now... or does it?

If there are only 500 of these razors in existence.... I would think their value now and in the future will stay steady. But you tell me?

 

[Possum092]

Actually, @Possum092 I think your questions have prompted me to dig a bit deeper and find out some of this stuff, which is starting to make an interesting addition to the thread.

I still think you shouldn’t be so sceptical about Rocnel, though. A great business can be built anywhere in the world if the owner has the talent and dedication. This is not some guy who is making razors sitting on a stool with a small table at the back of his shoe repair stall in the bazaar. I don’t think American or Canadian razor makers get the same scepticism, even though neither America nor Canada has a particularly strong international reputation for premium manufacturing, like Germany or Japan or maybe Italy do. And I’m sure there are also people producing utter garbage in Germany and Japan. It is the individual business that matters, and what they produce, not where in the world they are.

Like I say, if you hold one of these razors in your hand you cannot mistake the exceptional quality.

Quality products can be sourced from any country. When I go to spend $500+ on any product, some do diligence is due on my part. Spending the great part of 10+ years living overseas, I’ve become accustomed to how business is conducted and how corners can get shaved. I think the additional research will inform others and record the history of this manufacturer and the different models. It’s still on my short list by the way. Happy shaves

 

[Star_Wahl_Clipper_Treker]

I can’t say if the picture is really where he makes the razors, but it does look like a semi-residential, semi-industrial/retail complex that might have some small businesses and workshops. Or maybe it is just where his office is.

I think Murat does have the components made in batches. But it sounds like these days components are increasingly farmed out to different workshops and no longer entirely made end-to-end in-house.

I guess part of the answer to your questions is that Murat doesn’t need to spend time promoting his business or showing the production process, since everything he makes sells immediately and his customer base is very engaged. Another reason would be that his razors and production method are constantly changing and upgrading. He is not like most razor producers who release a model and it stays the same until it is replaced by a new model. Murat is continually developing the Sailor and when he develops an improvement he incorporates it into his next production batch. It’s like an ongoing project rather than a single model, and I quite enjoy that he is so enthusiastic about the Sailor project that he never stops working on it.

He does post on Instagram fairly regularly, and when there is something new in the pipeline he tends to show it - like for example the solid gold adjustment rings he had custom made last year for a particular special edition, or the last YouTube video he put up which shows the new removable handle section with the ball joint (pretty cool, actually and you can see the quality ‘click’ it makes when you snap it in). If you follow this stuff over time you pick up some clues about the way he works. I guess he thinks that’s plenty for what he needs and to keep his customers in the picture.

Here is the most recent video showing the upcoming 2022L Sailor and demostrating the new ball joint.

He does have some old videos on his channel showing production work. He did a whole series of these but that was five years ago and I’m sure things have changed a lot since then. Still quite interesting, though. You can browse through his other videos if you are interested.

Thanks for sharing these video's. I realize they are old, short, and probably shot on a cell phone by the looks of it, but it was still a good insight into manufacturing for his company. From what I can tell, there are most certainly no assembly lines going on here, what I see, is the equivalent to Adam Savage's workshop. Looks like in house work, using standard but high end CNC machining and milling.

If Rocnel were to jump into mass production, it would bring the cost of the razors down, however, it would also have a negative effect, chances of defects will go up. If Rocnel gets large enough, it will eventually go that direction, as all companies who start out small, and then become big, have to, in order to keep up with demand.

Rocnel clearly has a quality product here. But ya, Rocnel, improve your website, get English in your ABOUT and Delivery pages, get much higher end photo's on your pages to show off your product, and improve your payment methods. I can see Rocnel becoming more popular and better over time, because they have a quality product.

Also, after 5-years, I think its time to shoot some new footage with a high definition camera, 1080P minimum, 4K preferred, and not only upload it to Youtube, but put the embed links on your sites product pages. That way say someone like me, who might be interested in your Rocnel product, can go to the product, and on the same page, I can see how its made, that would increase my interest instantly!

Again, thank you Stinky for posting, and your right, this thread did just get much more interesting. This is the kind of stuff I like to see!

 

[faroll2]

Still enjoying my '20 Sailor, shaving with it is always a treat.

 

[EclipseRedRing]

It is interesting to consider how Rocnel might expand their business while still remaining a premium product. Currently their razors sell very quickly as buyers know they are a risk free purchase since they can easily recoup their money on the second hand market due to the scarcity of the item.

As soon as razors are produced in sufficient numbers such that they do not immediately sell out, then that resale safety net disappears and the purchase becomes a gamble. Prices for used razors will drop significantly if a new one can be purchased on demand. 500 razors might keep or increase their value, but how about when the used market is flooded with thousands of razors from previous Rocnel models? That might diminish the desirability of the Rocnel brand even if there were no reduction in quality as a result of mass production.

I am wondering if the perceived status of Rocnel is due in part precisely because of the very limited production numbers. We see similar with premium brush brands having scheduled drops in very limited numbers which appear carefully controlled to maintain the status of the brand. I am speculating here as I have no real knowledge of manufacturing in business.

 

[Mr. Shavington]

I don’t know, I think there’s a lot of guff said about brush makers who don’t satisfy demand. As far as I can see these are spare-time hobbyists who make a few brushes after work or on weekends, and their price levels are dictated by the quality of their product relative to the prices charged by comparable brush makers. If they sell out fast it is because a more customers want them, but the brush maker can only make so many.

I don’t think there is some sinister business strategy at play. Why would you intentionally lose sales if your prices and product are competitive and there is a lot of unsatisfied demand? A lot of good small business owners just aren’t interested in expanding, for perfectly sound reasons.

 

[Phoenixkh]

I don’t know, I think there’s a lot of guff said about brush makers who don’t satisfy demand. As far as I can see these are spare-time hobbyists who make a few brushes after work or on weekends, and their price levels are dictated by the quality of their product relative to the prices charged by comparable brush makers. If they sell out fast it is because a more customers want them, but the brush maker can only make so many.

I don’t think there is some sinister business strategy at play. Why would you intentionally lose sales if your prices and product are competitive and there is a lot of unsatisfied demand? A lot of good small business owners just aren’t interested in expanding, for perfectly sound reasons.

I tend to agree.. esp. on this small level.

There were rumors all over the place about Harley motorcycles at one point.... suggesting they were purposely holding back production to keep their bikes in short supply... to up demand and prices as well. I don't know if that was ever true or not... but I used to drive past a Harley manufacturing facility in York, PA quite often.. and their parking lot was always full... and if you happened to pass by there when a shift had just ended... there were lots of people pouring out of the plant... traffic slowed for quite a while.

 

[SRLNY]

I can confirm the workmanship on the Sailor - it's a precision device, design and build. Assorted quirks, well reported here, largely due to the almost hand-assembled nature and the maker continually developing and improving it I believe, but certainly not a cut-rate product (in the bazaar you get what you walk away with - caveat emptor). It really is one of the finest adjustables made IMO.

Yes, one has to hold a Rocnel to appreciate it. And, yes, it's a luxury item that is beautifully made. I've never really thought about the manufacturing facility for artisanal razors -- it's the result that has always interested me and whether they are using the corner of some large machine shop or having friends somewhere make a few parts that they assemble, doesn't matter. The design does matter, however. In any event, as for paying for a Rocnel, if you can get one through Bullgoose (when they get a shipment), you don't need to use Western Union to pay Murat directly. Although that worked just fine for me. Also, I'm fairly comfortable in believing that Murat doesn't hold razors back to build up perceived demand desirability. After corresponding with him a fair amount (and he does respond), I'm fairly sure he's building razors about as quickly as he comfortably can.

But, perhaps of most import, at least what was most important to me, is that I decided to get a Rocnel knowing that if I didn't like it, it could have been resold almost immediately on BST, as @EclipseRedRing points out. So I ordered one last fall, it arrived this winter, and I have had no desire to resell it. It's a keeper.