The Effect of Loft on a Brush

[dmshaver]

As we run willingly & dive headfirst into the brush rabbit hole, some of us are confronted with an opportunity to acquire yet more brushes. The cause can be our search for the "right" brush. But it's not just about the knot. Oh my no! The same knot set at two different lofts can, as we know, feel & perform vastly differently. I'm currently examining what I want in my next few brushes (because I don't have enough already). And my dear friend who has loaned me some of his to try also included two brushes set at 2 different lofts. Both are 28mm Shavemac 2 Band knots set in beautiful Rudy Vey handles. One is set at the recommended loft while the other brush is set a few mm's lower to provide a bit more backbone. Both are a joy to use, neither gets a bad review by this writer. Does anyone have multiple Shavemacs set at different lofts? What do you like about each?

Let's broaden this thread in the interest of science! (Not really in the interest of science, how about in the interest of enabling more folks)!

Does anyone have multiple brushes with the same knot set at different lofts? What do you like about each?

I'm not trying to convince anyone what is right. There isn't a "right" loft except the loft that you like. I'm starting this thread to consolidate people's thoughts & feelings about the effect loft has on brush performance. And when we're ordering a custom brush, I for one, like to have as much information that I can get so my brush ends up what I was hoping it would be.

 

[Rudy Vey]

First of all, what shape are the knots? Are they both fans or bulbs?
In my experience a fan is much easier set at a shorter loft than a bulb.
A bulb should be set at the loft it is made for, setting it lower will result
in a pointy knot. This does not happen with a fan, it just get a bit more back bone
and might splay a little less.
When ordering knots from Shavemac one has the option to lower or
lengthen the loft. As said, not a big deal with fans. But, with a bulb it makes a big
difference if you add 2 mm or lower the loft (minus 2 or minus 4 mm are the options).
The 28 mm bulbs in standard silvertip (three band) has normally a loft of 58 mm.
But could be made to 60 mm loft, or 56 resp. 54 mm. Two-band silvertip loft is 56 and
for the D01 two-band the loft is 54, and the D01 three band is 60 mm.
So, the different hair grades come with different lofts.

If you want to go with a bulb, I would consider the loft you wanted before you order.
Adjustments later for the bulb are minimal, as it could get pointy when lowered too much.
This is just my opinion based on my experience over the years I make brushes now.

 

[AimlessWanderer]

So... are we talking about loft of a brush, or setting depth of a knot? The thread title, doesn't seem to be matching the content. I know the two are connected, but only one of them might be knowable before buying a new brush... unless it is a custom build.

I don't buy custom brushes. I am far too cheap for that. Instead, I just look for a fairly low loft if looking for a new brush. I like a little bit of scrub to a brush, and also don't want lather skooshed in my earhole and up my nose if I decide to splay it. I don't need a brush that tries to lather both sides of my face at once.

 

[Rudy Vey]

So... are we talking about loft of a brush, or setting depth of a knot? The thread title, doesn't seem to be matching the content. I know the two are connected, but only one of them might be knowable before buying a new brush... unless it is a custom build.

I don't buy custom brushes. I am far too cheap for that. Instead, I just look for a fairly low loft if looking for a new brush. I like a little bit of scrub to a brush, and also don't want lather skooshed in my earhole and up my nose if I decide to splay it. I don't need a brush that tries to lather both sides of my face at once.

To be clear, Loft has nothing to do with setting depth of a knot.
Loft is the height of the hair from exit of the handle to the top of the hair.
Some brushes have knot that are set deeper inside the handle, others not. Simpson knots are pretty deep set, re-handled some Chubbies and had to drill over 25 mm deep to set the knot at the same loft as the original handle.
Most knots I work with have about 12-15 mm that is in the handle, but some have more depth.
As I tried to explain above, one can setting a knot deeper, but alters the behavior of the knot - and I mean fans here, bulbs need to be set at the loft they are made for (or allow only a small amount of variation in setting).
I think the title of the initial post made this clear.

 

[linty1]

I have a few of Larry's knots, they are 3 band, with a hybrid shape and I like to set them about 2mm deeper than whats rec'd on his website, and I find I get the right backbone for me, while still getting the nice 3 band soft tips. It did take a bit of trial and error to settle on something I like though.

 

[dmshaver]

Great discussion so far, gentlemen. Thank you! This is exactly what I was hoping to accumulate in this thread. Others, please feel free to add your thoughts or questions.

 

[Ron R]

Here is a interesting concept for fellows who like different variants of loft, it is adjustable. 2band badger.
If you want to scrub you just shorten the loft, nice soft feel you would just increase the loft by retracting the screw.

Have some great shaves!

 

[HazMat Shaver]

I'm with RV above.

I will add my pref if a fan knot set at 4 to 7mm less than double the knot diameter. Meaning a 26mm fan-shaped knot set at 50 to 53mm. a bulb-shaped knot set at double the knot size. No matter the depth in the handle, unless the knot isn't made long enough. lol. I find this to be a standard for my brushes. But I might fine-tune it from that depending on the manufacturer of the knot. Shavemacs are great!

 

[SydneyShaver]

Where the knot is set in the brush is imo, as important as the fibres of the knot, the loft of the knot and the size of the knot. High set typically = looser, floppier, softer, less scrub and easier splay and lather reapplication. Low set = tighter, scrubbier, firmer, harder splay and typically worse flow through. I don't have a preference per say. The brush as a package has to be to my liking. Sometimes that means i like it low and scrubby, othertimes high and floppy. Both are fine, just different.

 

[oscar11]

I done everything I can think of with the with the large Omega knot, seriously. I've spent alot of time playing around with hole diameter and loft too. Enjoyed every minute of it.

 

[dmshaver]

I done everything I can think of with the with the large Omega knot, seriously. I've spent alot of time playing around with hole diameter and loft too. Enjoyed every minute of it.

Having your skills, I imagine it is quite enjoyable being able to experiment accurately with loft & hole diameter. You can dial in precisely what works for you. How nice!

 

[Star_Wahl_Clipper_Treker]

Unfortunately, I haven't fallen into the rabbit hole of brushes yet. (Wait, did he say the word unfortunately? As in, he has plans to dive into it face first? )

This is the first brush I got, and still use for right now. Its a pure badger with a chrome handle. The site I got it from neglected to mention what size knott it is, they only mentioned that it was hand knotted. Here is the brush brand new just taken out of box, and after 3-uses.

Just so you know, I am not a fan of this brush, but it is a means to an end, get the face lathered in soap. Without measuring with a caliper tool, I can't tell you how big the knott is. But I'd have to believe that the knott is less then 30 at least, possibly mid-range around 26 maybe? Also, there is no way the loft on this is size 56 either, so I am guessing maybe it has a 48 loft? Here's another shot of it just hanging on the stand.

The worst thing about the brush, is that it has 0 backbone, it barely has enough backbone to keep the hair standing up while resting on the handle. The brush splays out far too much IMO, and with no backbone, just doesn't do a very good job of lathering. I mean, it still works technically, just not well. The best part about this brush is the chrome handle. It has solid weight to it, feels good, looks good.

I ordered a Maseto Avatar 30 knott 56 loft Silver Tipped Badger brush. I'm hoping that the higher quality badger hair, will equal higher performance. Because its coming from China, its taking forever to get here, but this is what the brush looks like that I have ordered...

As I am new to this hobby or way of life as I like to call it, I do not have enough brushes to fully participate in this thread that I would like to. But I hope that my contribution still is helpful in some way. I think the knott is important just as it is the backbone the brush has to do the job. While everybody has different tastes in brushes, I think we can all agree some backbone is a good thing in a brush.

 

[Rudy Vey]

Unfortunately, I haven't fallen into the rabbit hole of brushes yet. (Wait, did he say the word unfortunately? As in, he has plans to dive into it face first? )

This is the first brush I got, and still use for right now. Its a pure badger with a chrome handle. The site I got it from neglected to mention what size knott it is, they only mentioned that it was hand knotted. Here is the brush brand new just taken out of box, and after 3-uses.

Just so you know, I am not a fan of this brush, but it is a means to an end, get the face lathered in soap. Without measuring with a caliper tool, I can't tell you how big the knott is. But I'd have to believe that the knott is less then 30 at least, possibly mid-range around 26 maybe? Also, there is no way the loft on this is size 56 either, so I am guessing maybe it has a 48 loft? Here's another shot of it just hanging on the stand.

The worst thing about the brush, is that it has 0 backbone, it barely has enough backbone to keep the hair standing up while resting on the handle. The brush splays out far too much IMO, and with no backbone, just doesn't do a very good job of lathering. I mean, it still works technically, just not well. The best part about this brush is the chrome handle. It has solid weight to it, feels good, looks good.

I ordered a Maseto Avatar 30 knott 56 loft Silver Tipped Badger brush. I'm hoping that the higher quality badger hair, will equal higher performance. Because its coming from China, its taking forever to get here, but this is what the brush looks like that I have ordered...

View attachment 1431975

As I am new to this hobby or way of life as I like to call it, I do not have enough brushes to fully participate in this thread that I would like to. But I hope that my contribution still is helpful in some way. I think the knott is important just as it is the backbone the brush has to do the job. While everybody has different tastes in brushes, I think we can all agree some backbone is a good thing in a brush.

Using simple ruler/caliper, I measured the loft ratio in the black pure badger. It is 1:2.5. This means if the knot is 22 mm, the loft is 55 mm, 24 mm would give you 60 mm. Way too high to be a usable brush, I think the knot size is about 21-23 mm, not more.
I always recommend a loft ratio of 1:2 for fans up to 24 mm, then I go to a lower loft, like the one you show, approx 1:1.9. With a bulb, I go a little higher, like 1:2.1 or so.

 

[Phoenixkh]

Using simple ruler/caliper, I measured the loft ratio in the black pure badger. It is 1:2.5. This means if the knot is 22 mm, the loft is 55 mm, 24 mm would give you 60 mm. Way too high to be a usable brush, I think the knot size is about 21-23 mm, not more.
I always recommend a loft ratio of 1:2 for fans up to 24 mm, then I go to a lower loft, like the one you show, approx 1:1.9. With a bulb, I go a little higher, like 1:2.1 or so.

Rudy Vey, can I PM you to discuss the brushes you make? I'm not quite sure what is allowed here but don't want to violate any rules.

 

[Rudy Vey]

Rudy Vey, can I PM you to discuss the brushes you make? I'm not quite sure what is allowed here but don't want to violate any rules.

yes, you can pm me

 

[Big Jim]

Nearly all of the brushes I use frequently (about 50 brushes) as well as many more that I have given away I made myself. Most of the time I bought handles and knots and set the knots myself although I have made a few handles too.

I know this is in variance with most posters in this forum, but I like a lofty brush. My two loftiest brushes have 30 mm Silvertip knots that have been set the 69 and 70 mm respectively. I have made perhaps another half dozen or so in this range too.

These lofty brushes provide a fabulous face feel. They also splay easily without damaging the knot. They still have ample enough backbone to whip up a nice lather.

Others mentioned that lower loft provides more backbone.

Another factor not mentioned is the density of the knot. An extremely dense knot will naturally have more backbone than a normal knot and you may not want to have one of these set too short. I have such a brush and the feeling is like trying to lather with a fuzzy tennis ball. I gave away a 30 mm set at 58 mm loft Silvertip that was too dense and was hard to use although I have others with those dimensions that are nice to shave with.

I like my synthetics set with a lot of loft too.

No matter what the theory is, what matters is what you personally like.

 

[apshaveco]

This is a great thread. I’ll add a few points (not specific to shavemac knots - this is in general):

1) Synthetic vs. Badger. Badger blooms, synthetic does not, this should be taken into consideration when setting a knot at a particular loft

2) I’ll mention that comparing loft is typically best as a 1:1 comparison with the same knot. For example, if you like one synthetic knot at 50mm, you might like another at 54mm, depending on the characteristics of the knot. It’s certainly not a “My current brush is 50mm loft and it works so i’ll just always use 50mm” if you’re buying a brush with a totally different knot.

For more reading you can check out the link below, I talk about depth of setting rather than loft, but it’s the same idea.

https://apshaveco.com/pages/shaving-brush-loft-size-more

 

[ackvil]

@Rudy Vey Thanks for the education on brush lofts.