The Ax Method of honing razors

[Matt_W]

I wanted to thank Alex for sharing this method. I have now tried it with 2 different razors, on 2 different Jnats: a Nakayama Honyama and an Ozuku Asagi. They were taken to these finishing hones after bevel setting on a 1K Naniwa Chosera. I did a combination of circles and X-strokes on slurry and warer for both, keeping the lap counts pretty low as Alex has recommended. The test shaves were wonderful! I am somewhat astounded but pretty please that I was able to get an amazing edge on a razor in so little time.

 

[alx gilmore]

Hi Matt
I went ahead and made another video that uses the method in a very streamlined way, just 42 strokes total per side plus the stropping of 40 or fewer per side passes, no circle strokes. On reason why this Ax Method works as well as it does is because when starting with a perfectly set bevel, if you limit the stroke count to a minimum with you finisher, the following finishing strokes are all meeting closely with the edge and the stone. The bevel is still fairly flat at the end of 42 strokes so the refinement continues to that point. If you pile on too many other strokes on top of these 42 or so, that is when the errors (edge not meeting stone) begin to compound. I could care diddly what the bevel looks like with the naked eye, shiny-bright-purple, it dosn't matter. All that matters is where the edge meets the stone.

The errors will occur in the form of irregularities in both the steel and the stone. The stone changes shape and the blade changes shape with each pass, each becoming less flat. X strokes can overcome some degree of irregularity, but for straight on edge forward strokes it's all out there to be magnified. The slurry speeds up the honing (I'll never say grinding again on these forums for fear of getting my hand slapped again) process by many times, and a quality slurry from the honyama stone is much finer and purer than from a Mikawa nagura so this speed up the process. Here is the video. Alx

 

[Doc226]

Alex, that is just awesome-and I thought I can speed hone with the best of them, you sir are the master.

 

[tinkersd]

I was wondering, I own 4 grit sizes of Norton stones [220grit/1K grit/ 4K grit / 8K grit, can the axe method be modified to be used with synthetic stones like mine???
Just wondering, I can't afford any decent J-Nat's so that's why I asked.

Thanking you in advance, I am,

tinkersd

 

[alx gilmore]

I was wondering, I own 4 grit sizes of Norton stones [220grit/1K grit/ 4K grit / 8K grit, can the axe method be modified to be used with synthetic stones like mine???
Just wondering, I can't afford any decent J-Nat's so that's why I asked.

Thanking you in advance, I am,

tinkersd

Tinkersd
I think it is worth a try. The Ax Method is just a concept and a way to look at the efficiency of particular stone. Try it with your stones, keeping the stroke count as low and you can. If you can find a comfortable shave off your 8k Norton already, then you can just play around with lowering the stroke count and hand pressure and see what you can come up with.

Alx

 

[tinkersd]

Thank you very much for responding to my quiry, good job. While I"m not completely certain of what the AX method entails, I will try to apply it to my Norton 4k and 8K stones, it should be right for the parts I understand.


I'll let you know how that turns out, my next honing session should be in a week or so.

tinkersd

 

[Doc226]

Not sure if the Ax method would work with nor tons, give it a try and report back.

I believe the method works because of the properties of the JNAT stones.

 

[Disburden]

Alex,

I tried your method and didn't get a good HHT after using my Nakayama. It is a Nakayama Maurichi Asagi with Kamisori stamp. Do you have any additional tips for this method with that stone? Have you used a Maruichi Asagi?

 

[alx gilmore]

Alex,

I tried your method and didn't get a good HHT after using my Nakayama. It is a Nakayama Maurichi Asagi with Kamisori stamp. Do you have any additional tips for this method with that stone? Have you used a Maruichi Asagi?

Hi in New York
Did you begin with a freshly formed bevel? How many strokes and what kind of slurry did you begin with, made with tomo or diamond nagura? If you use a white Aichi nagura your edge with so few strokes will reflect the scratch patter of the Aichi nagura.
Alx

 

[Disburden]

I used a naniwa 1ss to form a bevel that shaved arm hair without effort and raised slurry with a dmt325. The slurry was like yours, muddy but not dry, still hydrated.
When done the hht as a 0-1. I was using a tomo nagura from an ozuku asagi but it took a long time to make a slurry. I have had trouble using this stone as a finisher too, it seems hard to use without being forgiving at all. I have been honing for 4 yrs now and have no trouble with any other system, including coticules as a one stone method.

 

[Jakebullet]

It’s nearly 10 years on since this thread began so I’m a little late to the party.
I was looking for the most simple possible stone progression from bevel set to shave when a friendly member guided me to this thread.
I’ve since watched a load of your videos alex and wow what a help they’ve been!
Watching you test then hone then strop then test was a real education. Your videos and microscope images really brought the process to life and I, like you, was amazed by just how quickly the stones changed the metal.
I came to realize that none of my bevels were ever perfectly set and with this knowledge came a massive leap forward.
Using your ideas I, one by one, took all of my seven razors back to 1k bevel set and then brought them up to shave ready with my kiita.
It was a learning process, it took some practice but now all 7 have great new edges and are giving me my best ever shaves.
With a straight it’s still possible to get brilliant smooth shaves with a less than optimal bevel set, but once I took care to get every single millimetre of the edge set perfectly it made a world of difference to my edges and shaves.
I never got consistent HHT results and used to tell myself that my girl has fine hair and it’s curly etc but now anywhere it touches one of my edges it gets parted, and if it doesn’t I go straight back to the stone and strop.
Having a really tight and proven bevel set has also helped me to go on to my different finishers and really work towards maximising them. My coticule/slate/jnat edges etc are now the best they’ve ever been.
Thanks a lot for sharing your knowledge and experience, I never would’ve got there alone.

 

[JPO]

It’s nearly 10 years on since this thread began so I’m a little late to the party.
I was looking for the most simple possible stone progression from bevel set to shave when a friendly member guided me to this thread.
I’ve since watched a load of your videos alex and wow what a help they’ve been!
Watching you test then hone then strop then test was a real education. Your videos and microscope images really brought the process to life and I, like you, was amazed by just how quickly the stones changed the metal.
I came to realize that none of my bevels were ever perfectly set and with this knowledge came a massive leap forward.
Using your ideas I, one by one, took all of my seven razors back to 1k bevel set and then brought them up to shave ready with my kiita.
It was a learning process, it took some practice but now all 7 have great new edges and are giving me my best ever shaves.
With a straight it’s still possible to get brilliant smooth shaves with a less than optimal bevel set, but once I took care to get every single millimetre of the edge set perfectly it made a world of difference to my edges and shaves.
I never got consistent HHT results and used to tell myself that my girl has fine hair and it’s curly etc but now anywhere it touches one of my edges it gets parted, and if it doesn’t I go straight back to the stone and strop.
Having a really tight and proven bevel set has also helped me to go on to my different finishers and really work towards maximising them. My coticule/slate/jnat edges etc are now the best they’ve ever been.
Thanks a lot for sharing your knowledge and experience, I never would’ve got there alone.

I have also learned allot from these videos. It really gives a base line for a minimum progression that can get you really far. I usually take it a little further, but it really shows how simple the basics can be.

 

[Jakebullet]

I honed a razor using Alex’s method today.
I can’t do it as quickly or expertly as he can.
On the 1k today I did 10, 5, 3, 2, 1 strokes each side. That’s enough for Alex but I had to repeat that to make sure I’d set the bevel well.
Then I stropped and raised a diamond slurry on my kiita jnat. I did the prescribed 42 laps and stropped but it would only violin a hanging hair. I repeated this three times and couldn’t do much better.
Next I raised a tomo Nagura slurry and things got better though still not perfect.
I stropped again added water to the slurry and finally I could cut the HH all along the edge.
Palm and lined stropping helped a lot.
But what Alex can do in 5 minutes is taking me more like 40.

 

[JPO]

I honed a razor using Alex’s method today.
I can’t do it as quickly or expertly as he can.
On the 1k today I did 10, 5, 3, 2, 1 strokes each side. That’s enough for Alex but I had to repeat that to make sure I’d set the bevel well.
Then I stropped and raised a diamond slurry on my kiita jnat. I did the prescribed 42 laps and stropped but it would only violin a hanging hair. I repeated this three times and couldn’t do much better.
Next I raised a tomo Nagura slurry and things got better though still not perfect.
I stropped again added water to the slurry and finally I could cut the HH all along the edge.
Palm and lined stropping helped a lot.
But what Alex can do in 5 minutes is taking me more like 40.

It seems like he is using a good amount of pressure in the beginning. His stones are probably also good.

 

[alx gilmore]

It seems like he is using a good amount of pressure in the beginning. His stones are probably also good.

About pressure and cutting speed.
I find that cutting speed has more to do with matching the stone to the steel than pressure, and the fact that some stones work better with some steels than others. If you, as I have, tried the same stone with same stroke count and hand pressure with several razors you will find that some stone/steel combinations work better than others. And this could be why my 5 minute session and your 40 minute session had the same results.

I honed and shaved with a vintage Damesteoldard & Kendall razor this afternoon (yes I work at home) and it took testing 5 stones to find one that would cut the steel efficiently, meaning a 5 to 6 minute bevel set to final finish with no nagura, tomonagura or Mikawa nagura. Just water and a diamond plate to raise a slurry on the gray level 4.5 Ozaki tomae stone. The bevels had been set on a soaked 1k King.

I do use a 315x optical microscope, so I do not have to spend more than 30 seconds on the stone to determine if the stone is cutting the steel or not. If it isn't I change the finishing stone. It helps to have optics that will show you individual scratch marks, at least those of the bevel setting stone. Erasing those 1k scratches with 5 or 10 strokes on your finishing stone RIGHT AT THE EDGE is the indicator you want to prove. If you use edge leading strokes the slurry will pick away as the bevel setting scratch pattern at the edge, if you use circular strokes the removal of the bevel setting strokes is a haphazard affair. If you use spine leading strokes the progress of removing the 1k scratches begins at the back of the bevel where it meets the hollow ground portion of the bevel. We shave with the edge so I prefer to hone the edge with fresh slurry and edge leading strokes.

As slurry is used it breaks down and gets finer, once it breaks down by 50% is it is less effective, and I want the Full Monte. Why waste time polishing the back of the bevel since it has nothing to do with shaving. Edge leading strokes directs all of the cutting power towards the cutting edge, where it matters. If you begin after 1k bevel set with a fresh 1,000 or 1,500 bevel set scratch pattern where the scratches lead from the edge to the transition or back of the bevel you will have a fair chance of following the progress, especially if you have a good glass, to see the progress taking place. Just guessing does not count. The slurry getting darker helps but there is no substitute for the ability to actually see the 1k scratches getting thinner and thinner.

Having honed a razor that is comfortable to shave with is: 40% steel, 40% stone and 20% skill. The stone has to be compatible with the steel, meaning it cuts the steel without effort. This requires some front loaded effort on your part to match up stone and steel, but once that is done then the skill of honing is, well, fun. It doesn't hurt to have known stone steel combo's. The clincher would be to use one brand/maker of razors and have a compatible stone. This is what the blacksmiths do, synthetic or natural stone. The use the same steels and heat-treating, and the stone stones. Even some synthetic stones work better with some steels.

Good Luck,
Alx

 

[JPO]

About pressure and cutting speed.
I find that cutting speed has more to do with matching the stone to the steel than pressure, and the fact that some stones work better with some steels than others. If you, as I have, tried the same stone with same stroke count and hand pressure with several razors you will find that some stone/steel combinations work better than others. And this could be why my 5 minute session and your 40 minute session had the same results.

I honed and shaved with a vintage Damesteoldard & Kendall razor this afternoon (yes I work at home) and it took testing 5 stones to find one that would cut the steel efficiently, meaning a 5 to 6 minute bevel set to final finish with no nagura, tomonagura or Mikawa nagura. Just water and a diamond plate to raise a slurry on the gray level 4.5 Ozaki tomae stone. The bevels had been set on a soaked 1k King.

I do use a 315x optical microscope, so I do not have to spend more than 30 seconds on the stone to determine if the stone is cutting the steel or not. If it isn't I change the finishing stone. It helps to have optics that will show you individual scratch marks, at least those of the bevel setting stone. Erasing those 1k scratches with 5 or 10 strokes on your finishing stone RIGHT AT THE EDGE is the indicator you want to prove. If you use edge leading strokes the slurry will pick away as the bevel setting scratch pattern at the edge, if you use circular strokes the removal of the bevel setting strokes is a haphazard affair. If you use spine leading strokes the progress of removing the 1k scratches begins at the back of the bevel where it meets the hollow ground portion of the bevel. We shave with the edge so I prefer to hone the edge with fresh slurry and edge leading strokes.

As slurry is used it breaks down and gets finer, once it breaks down by 50% is it is less effective, and I want the Full Monte. Why waste time polishing the back of the bevel since it has nothing to do with shaving. Edge leading strokes directs all of the cutting power towards the cutting edge, where it matters. If you begin after 1k bevel set with a fresh 1,000 or 1,500 bevel set scratch pattern where the scratches lead from the edge to the transition or back of the bevel you will have a fair chance of following the progress, especially if you have a good glass, to see the progress taking place. Just guessing does not count. The slurry getting darker helps but there is no substitute for the ability to actually see the 1k scratches getting thinner and thinner.

Having honed a razor that is comfortable to shave with is: 40% steel, 40% stone and 20% skill. The stone has to be compatible with the steel, meaning it cuts the steel without effort. This requires some front loaded effort on your part to match up stone and steel, but once that is done then the skill of honing is, well, fun. It doesn't hurt to have known stone steel combo's. The clincher would be to use one brand/maker of razors and have a compatible stone. This is what the blacksmiths do, synthetic or natural stone. The use the same steels and heat-treating, and the stone stones. Even some synthetic stones work better with some steels.

Good Luck,
Alx

Thank you for your response. Most of my Jnat honing is done in less then 5 minutes, but i do use mid range stones.
the 40 min mark was from Jakebullet's post.
It could be interesting to test my stones again going from a 1k to a jnat, only doing 10 strokes to see how much of the 1k striation it can remove. I do not have that many stones, so it should be fairly simple.

The steel vs stone subject is really interesting.
Most of my straight razors works quite well with my JNAT's, except a few picky ones. I never connected the dots and blamed my JNAT's. I always though i messed up somewhere
Old Heljestrand and TI razors seem to work really well with my JNAT's

You are lucky to be in the position to try different stones with different steel. For me this process would be a bit to expensive to get into. It is much easier to just try different razor brands with different steel to find a good match.

 

[Jakebullet]

About pressure and cutting speed.
I find that cutting speed has more to do with matching the stone to the steel than pressure, and the fact that some stones work better with some steels than others. If you, as I have, tried the same stone with same stroke count and hand pressure with several razors you will find that some stone/steel combinations work better than others. And this could be why my 5 minute session and your 40 minute session had the same results.

I honed and shaved with a vintage Damesteoldard & Kendall razor this afternoon (yes I work at home) and it took testing 5 stones to find one that would cut the steel efficiently, meaning a 5 to 6 minute bevel set to final finish with no nagura, tomonagura or Mikawa nagura. Just water and a diamond plate to raise a slurry on the gray level 4.5 Ozaki tomae stone. The bevels had been set on a soaked 1k King.

I do use a 315x optical microscope, so I do not have to spend more than 30 seconds on the stone to determine if the stone is cutting the steel or not. If it isn't I change the finishing stone. It helps to have optics that will show you individual scratch marks, at least those of the bevel setting stone. Erasing those 1k scratches with 5 or 10 strokes on your finishing stone RIGHT AT THE EDGE is the indicator you want to prove. If you use edge leading strokes the slurry will pick away as the bevel setting scratch pattern at the edge, if you use circular strokes the removal of the bevel setting strokes is a haphazard affair. If you use spine leading strokes the progress of removing the 1k scratches begins at the back of the bevel where it meets the hollow ground portion of the bevel. We shave with the edge so I prefer to hone the edge with fresh slurry and edge leading strokes.

As slurry is used it breaks down and gets finer, once it breaks down by 50% is it is less effective, and I want the Full Monte. Why waste time polishing the back of the bevel since it has nothing to do with shaving. Edge leading strokes directs all of the cutting power towards the cutting edge, where it matters. If you begin after 1k bevel set with a fresh 1,000 or 1,500 bevel set scratch pattern where the scratches lead from the edge to the transition or back of the bevel you will have a fair chance of following the progress, especially if you have a good glass, to see the progress taking place. Just guessing does not count. The slurry getting darker helps but there is no substitute for the ability to actually see the 1k scratches getting thinner and thinner.

Having honed a razor that is comfortable to shave with is: 40% steel, 40% stone and 20% skill. The stone has to be compatible with the steel, meaning it cuts the steel without effort. This requires some front loaded effort on your part to match up stone and steel, but once that is done then the skill of honing is, well, fun. It doesn't hurt to have known stone steel combo's. The clincher would be to use one brand/maker of razors and have a compatible stone. This is what the blacksmiths do, synthetic or natural stone. The use the same steels and heat-treating, and the stone stones. Even some synthetic stones work better with some steels.

Good Luck,
Alx

Thanks for this detailed and very helpful reply Alx.
I’ve only got seven razors but three of them , a Henckels Friodur 17 1/2, a Robeson Shuredge and a Sheffield Thomas turner took to your method very successfully and easily whereas my other 4 were taking a lot more work on the jnat. Back to the strop, back to the jnat etc. but I wasn’t making a new slurry each time as you suggest above, just adding a little water to prevent it drying out, and this might be playing a big part.
My Bengal wedge took the longest time, maybe a couple of hours spread over a few days.
I had no idea why, but your idea of different steel and stone combinations being more/less suited makes perfect sense of it all.
This also explains why some of my finishers give a brilliant edge on some of my razors but not so much on others.
This is all new to me and in my ignorance and simplicity I assumed that steel was steel and stone was stone, rub one against the other and away you go.
This has opened my mind up to new possibilities.
My optics are very basic, just a hand held LED lit loupe.
I can see if an edge reflects any light looking down on it from above which helps judging if the bevel is set all along the edge but theres not really enough magnification to see how individual 1k stria are changing in the jnat slurry moment to moment.
As you say guessing doesn’t count and I’m definitely guessing and using the hanging hair as a guide. Once it cuts everywhere I stop.
I can now get the hair violining and grabbing from the 1k King.
3 weeks ago I was only getting this from the finisher.
Your method has improved all of my edges in a big way Alx it’s given me such a leg up and I’m very grateful. Im only getting started, this stuff is a lot of fun as you say.

 

[alex1921]

I have seen Alex G. talk about the steel/stone match and I do subscribe to it.
For example some Jnats do great with stainless steel, others don't. If the razor doesn't give me the desired edge I switch stones. Could it be user error? Maybe, but when one stone works better I stick with that.

 

[Doc226]

I have tried many dozens of JNATs, most can do the Axe method.

 

[Rosseforp]

Having honed a razor that is comfortable to shave with is: 40% steel, 40% stone and 20% skill. The stone has to be compatible with the steel, meaning it cuts the steel without effort. This requires some front loaded effort on your part to match up stone and steel, but once that is done then the skill of honing is, well, fun. It doesn't hurt to have known stone steel combo's. The clincher would be to use one brand/maker of razors and have a compatible stone. This is what the blacksmiths do, synthetic or natural stone. The use the same steels and heat-treating, and the stone stones. Even some synthetic stones work better with some steels.

I used to run Sunnen Hones at work for precision hole sizing on many different materials, from aluminum, bronze, to all varieties of steels, some heat-treated, some not, and @alx gilmore gets it. We had hundreds of different stones of varying hardness, grits, and materials. Many times a specific stone and mandrel was required for each job, so we developed a data-base of sorts with a card file system. I know, old school.

@alx gilmore your explanation is spot-on, I could not expand on it one bit.

My Grandfather taught me the Axe Method for sharpening knives probably 60 years ago, and he used a SR and a Raven to hone it.
I know, I have them.

~doug~