Thats it!
- Thread starter hcoop112
- Start date
Glad you found something to work with, I have to admit I was kinda disappointed when you were ready to throw in the towel. Welcome back to the rabbit hole
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Shifting to magnifying tools. I was having trouble holding the 40x side of my loupe still, so I bought an inexpensive plain-old, old-school 8x magnifying glass (no LED) which I can hold quite still. Much better in terms of a stable view but obviously not as much detail as the 40x.
Does anyone know if plain-old, old-school hand held magnifying glasses are available at 20x?
Does anyone know if plain-old, old-school hand held magnifying glasses are available at 20x?
I have no idea what power this is, but sure wish they still made these. It's not flat but like a half of a sphere , super handy to have
There are a couple of handheld magnifiers on amazon 30x with led, old school style but wider handle for less than $20, not sure where you live
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Bausch & Lomb 20x Hastings Triplet Magnifier | eBay
Bausch & Lomb 20x Hastings triplet with case.
www.ebay.com
If you really want one, that is the one to get. I'd actually recommend a 10x rather than this, as the viewing field is larger.
The next step up in image quality beyond this magnifier is a microscope.
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I haven't tried the king 1k, but from how everyone describes it, it seems like a rather soft stone. Using a good amount of preassure will dish it fast. How do you keep your stones flat? You will probably have to lap the stone several times to get a decent bevel.
Using dished stones on knives is a challenge in itself, probably impossible to get a good bevel with razors on a dished stone.
Using dished stones on knives is a challenge in itself, probably impossible to get a good bevel with razors on a dished stone.
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
A polished stone tile makes a pretty good bevel setter if it is dead flat, and has a sheet of sandpaper glued to it. Or a third of a sheet. You can pick the grit you want. It stays flat, if it starts out being flat.
Plenty of bevels have been set with a 1k King. But that's not for me. A quality stone of 320 to 600 to start with, such as a Kuromaku or a Chosera is more like it. Or a Sharpall diamond plate. Or the sandpaper on 3/4" thick acrylic. That's what I would use to set a bevel and I don't have time of day for cheap, soft stones.
Plenty of bevels have been set with a 1k King. But that's not for me. A quality stone of 320 to 600 to start with, such as a Kuromaku or a Chosera is more like it. Or a Sharpall diamond plate. Or the sandpaper on 3/4" thick acrylic. That's what I would use to set a bevel and I don't have time of day for cheap, soft stones.
Sounds like I should only use the King 1k for learning on my Gold Dollar and then move up something like a Chosera 1k for the real show. Can someone confirm that I cannot do anything to the GD with the King that cannot be undone/fixed with a Chosera 1k?
And remember that the plan is to repurpose the King combo for my kitchen knives.
And remember that the plan is to repurpose the King combo for my kitchen knives.
nothing wrong with the King 1K it will work. with this said I much prefer my Shapton 1.5k Kuromaku for bevel setting.
the king gets used for kitchen knives, hunting stuff, etc........but its an economical starter.
you be fine switching to the other. might pick up more refinement.......dependent upon the user.
camo
There are a few problems with this statement. First, no stone should dish fast with a straight razor, no matter how soft.
Secondly, definitely no stone should need several lappings in the bevel setting stage. If this is truly the case, then you are either using the wrong stone i.e. working with an extremely damaged razor, or using way too much pressure. For reference, I lap my 1K/2K stones on average after 2-3 honing sessions (although this is not really true - I lap them when they need lapping).
Your key tools for setting a correct bevel are: your stone, a sharpie, a loupe, the thumbnail test, and the hair cutting test.
1. Use the sharpie and the loupe to visually inspect how close you are to making the bevels meet fully and to make sure you have no nicks in the edge. Fine teeth from the 1K/2K stone are OK.
2. Then, wet your thumbnail and test that edge. You have to feel the edge bite into your nail with no downward force applied to the razor. Gently slice into it. If it doesn't bite, go back to the stone. If it does, check that it cuts arm hair. If it doesn't, go back to the stone for another 10-20 laps and then check (hair test) again.
In this case I'm going to say, do NOT use pressure as a tool. It can be of use, but only once you master this process using no pressure, and understanding how all the different razor grinds behave on the stones. Until then, forget about the pressure - it will be the enemy.
To lap your stones, there are several tools and methods available. Which one is best for you will depend mainly on how frequently you're planning to lap (counting on maximum one lapping per single honing session please!).
The best tool for me would be an Atoma 400 diamond plate. Of course sandpaper and a flat tile (or a thick piece of glass) can be used if you're on a budget, or don't plan to lap very frequently, but the Atoma is worth every cent. It will last for years. If you can spare the cash, don't even think about anything else.
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The King 1K is only slower and softer than the Naniwa Professional 1K. Those two stones are otherwise close enough in grit that you can simply re-purpose one and move to the other.
Can you "do the damage that cannot be undone"? Sure you can! I have seen it done on a few GDs recently, where people (supposedly very experienced people who sell/push Gold Dollars, though shall herewith remain unnamed) chose to use pressure over patience, ground away too much spine, while flexing the edge, to the point where correct honing strokes on the 1K were simply not reaching the apex anymore. I had to apply 2 layers of tape at first to compensate for the lost steel.... But that's besides the point - Although it does bring some reassurances that even messed up razors can be brought back to life.
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I want to thank all of you in this thread for piquing my interest enough to make me jump down the SR rabbit hole. This has been one of the most entertaining and educational threads I've read for a while. I went to bed last night dreaming of honing haha. I have a 5/8 round tip hallow ground coming my way that is shave ready along with 2 beginner strops. I think I'll probably pick up a gold club SR off of ebay when I want to start learning how to hone. But I'm certainly going to look into the balsa wood stops that was quoted multiple times in this thread to keep the hone going.
Thanks again to everyone here for helping me down this rabbit hole.
Thanks again to everyone here for helping me down this rabbit hole.
My new GD P81/1996 (which has only ever touched a Naniwa 12k, a hard black Arkansas and leather) will cut hair but not well enough for me, so I want to perform my first full progression.
- To remove the existing bevel, should I use a glass or my King 1k?
- What is the risk of me applying too much pressure (I don't mean enough to bend the blade) when I set the bevel? Just lose a little bit of metal on the razor that I bought to learn on?
- What is the risk of me applying too much pressure when I am finishing on my 12k or Arkansas? That I will need to go back one step or two steps in the progression?
rbscebu
Girls call me Makaluod
There is no need to "remove" the existing bevel. All you have to do is reset the bevel. This can be done on a 1k synthetic.
The P81 is not a "delicate" blade, meaning that it will not easily bend Iike a full or extra hollow blade. Just watch the pressure that you use when setting the bevel. Remember that you are not in a rush, you have all the time you want to set a bevel.
As for finishing, the same can be said about pressure, take you time with little to no pressure.
It took me a while to learn all this, but it does come to you. Besides using too much pressure (trying to rush things), another common n00bie mistake is to apply too much torque to the blade increasing the pressure on the edge.
Just take your time and learn what works and what doesn't work for you and the blade.
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Great. I want to do a few full progressions and make a few mistakes. It's the only way I will learn.
The reason I asked question #3 above is my practice Beau Brummel has lost it's edge. The blade on the razor sometimes catches on the inside of the scales when I close it (so I need be careful). The razor had been capable of slicing a tomato but no longer is. So I don't know if I damaged the edge by catching the blade on the inside of the spine or by spending too much time finishing it on my new hard black Arkansas.
Is it possible that the edge was lost by too much finishing/polishing on the Arkansas (I was pretty careful)?
Regardless, I plan to next take the razor to my 1k King.
The reason I asked question #3 above is my practice Beau Brummel has lost it's edge. The blade on the razor sometimes catches on the inside of the scales when I close it (so I need be careful). The razor had been capable of slicing a tomato but no longer is. So I don't know if I damaged the edge by catching the blade on the inside of the spine or by spending too much time finishing it on my new hard black Arkansas.
Is it possible that the edge was lost by too much finishing/polishing on the Arkansas (I was pretty careful)?
Regardless, I plan to next take the razor to my 1k King.
Is it unable to cut tomato skin all along the edge? Or just where the edge made contact with the scales?
Never heard of polishing an edge "so much" that it loses its edge, you are still removing metal, just at a fine grit. If you were doing careful controlled strokes then I highly doubt that is the reason.
Rolling the edge on your strop could be a factor though. What kind of progression are you running? Going back to the 1k seems like a drastic measure imo.
Because I did the same finishing on a second practice razor and the second razor still cuts my arm hair and a tomato, I must have just done something to the edge of the first practice razor.
My progression will be King 1k > King 6k > Naniwa 12k > cloth > leather.
When I am comfortable doing full progressions, I will consider repurposing the King combo for kitchen knives and buying new 1k, 4k and 8k stones, but I am now getting ahead of myself. I am also in the process of getting balsa strops and diamond paste to learn what it is all about. Definitely more than enough to keep myself busy.
My progression will be King 1k > King 6k > Naniwa 12k > cloth > leather.
When I am comfortable doing full progressions, I will consider repurposing the King combo for kitchen knives and buying new 1k, 4k and 8k stones, but I am now getting ahead of myself. I am also in the process of getting balsa strops and diamond paste to learn what it is all about. Definitely more than enough to keep myself busy.
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
If you choose to hit the 1k, I suggest you begin with a sharpie test, just two or three very light pressure laps. Look CLOSELY at the bevel under a BRIGHT light, with magnification. Look and see where it hits. Turn the razor edge-up into the light and see if you can see the edge at all. The actual edge should be quite invisible to any magnification of 10x or less. If you see just a tiny ding here or there, that's not a systemic failure, just tiny flaws that ought to be corrected but should certainly not prevent tomato cutting or forearm shaving or any other common bevel test.But if you see a lot of edge, then you don't have a bevel and if you ever did, you did something to totally lose it.
DO NOT DO NOT DO NOT "kill" the edge. It is probably already quite killed.
If you have good contact on the bevel all the way out to the edge, and the edge is actually an edge with no reflection when looking right at it, then it ought to slice your tomato as finely as you please. If not, you are not reading your reflections right.
Do not proceed again without ensuring that the bevel is set. Truly set.
As already posted, you can't over-polish an edge. However, you COULD create a fin edge by using too much pressure on a finisher combined with a lot of laps. But a fin edge will still cut the dickens out of a tomato. So I think you never had a good bevel.
Here is a drill for you. Take a razor, any old razor, one you can afford to sacrifice, as long as it is made from proper razor steel. Even a GD will serve quite well for this exercise. Pick one side and hone it on your bevel setter. Circle strokes, with heavy pressure, about the weight of your arm. Don't stop until you can detect by feel or by eye, a burr. I don't care if it is 10,000 strokes. The purpose of this is to understand that a burr is a real thing, not a myth. Just go at it. Don't flip the razor until you have a burr on at least a small portion of the blade. THEN flip and do the same number of laps. Probably you will then end up with the burr on the opposite side, but maybe along the full length of the edge. Return to the first side because you never got that full length burr. Get it full length, then equalize the laps so each side has the same number. Now lighten up the pressure and go a set on each side of the razor of 10 circle strokes, then 8, then 6, 4, 2, and these should be with light pressure, no more than the weight of your hand, at the very most. Do a dozen or two regular alternating laps, weight of the razor and a finger. Add a few pull strokes. Finally do some short x stroke laps, maybe 3 dozen or so, about 3" of travel, with only the weight of the razor for pressure. If you nail it, you should be able to carve War and Peace in the skin of that tomato and frighten your forearm hairs into deserting their follicles. You could probably strop and shave with it.
NO SLURRY. Slurry will eat up a burr or any other edge artifact, and in fact it also eats up the edge just a little, rounding it slightly. Keep your 1k clean. Honing under running water is not excessive, especially with a King or Bear Moo or similar.
If you never get a burr, then never quit. If you don't get a burr, you are NOT DONE, using this method.
Remember to feel both sides when trying to detect a burr by feel.Compare them. One has a slight catch. The other side offers no resistance to a fingertip sliding off the edge. Look at the bevel on both sides, too. Once you can spot the burr, and feel the burr, and have set a few bevels by the burr method, you do not need to go full length with the burr any more. Just get a little burr on each side in turn, and hone normally, with regular laps, to finish the bevel. Not that it really makes that much difference.
DO NOT DO NOT DO NOT "kill" the edge. It is probably already quite killed.
If you have good contact on the bevel all the way out to the edge, and the edge is actually an edge with no reflection when looking right at it, then it ought to slice your tomato as finely as you please. If not, you are not reading your reflections right.
Do not proceed again without ensuring that the bevel is set. Truly set.
As already posted, you can't over-polish an edge. However, you COULD create a fin edge by using too much pressure on a finisher combined with a lot of laps. But a fin edge will still cut the dickens out of a tomato. So I think you never had a good bevel.
Here is a drill for you. Take a razor, any old razor, one you can afford to sacrifice, as long as it is made from proper razor steel. Even a GD will serve quite well for this exercise. Pick one side and hone it on your bevel setter. Circle strokes, with heavy pressure, about the weight of your arm. Don't stop until you can detect by feel or by eye, a burr. I don't care if it is 10,000 strokes. The purpose of this is to understand that a burr is a real thing, not a myth. Just go at it. Don't flip the razor until you have a burr on at least a small portion of the blade. THEN flip and do the same number of laps. Probably you will then end up with the burr on the opposite side, but maybe along the full length of the edge. Return to the first side because you never got that full length burr. Get it full length, then equalize the laps so each side has the same number. Now lighten up the pressure and go a set on each side of the razor of 10 circle strokes, then 8, then 6, 4, 2, and these should be with light pressure, no more than the weight of your hand, at the very most. Do a dozen or two regular alternating laps, weight of the razor and a finger. Add a few pull strokes. Finally do some short x stroke laps, maybe 3 dozen or so, about 3" of travel, with only the weight of the razor for pressure. If you nail it, you should be able to carve War and Peace in the skin of that tomato and frighten your forearm hairs into deserting their follicles. You could probably strop and shave with it.
NO SLURRY. Slurry will eat up a burr or any other edge artifact, and in fact it also eats up the edge just a little, rounding it slightly. Keep your 1k clean. Honing under running water is not excessive, especially with a King or Bear Moo or similar.
If you never get a burr, then never quit. If you don't get a burr, you are NOT DONE, using this method.
Remember to feel both sides when trying to detect a burr by feel.Compare them. One has a slight catch. The other side offers no resistance to a fingertip sliding off the edge. Look at the bevel on both sides, too. Once you can spot the burr, and feel the burr, and have set a few bevels by the burr method, you do not need to go full length with the burr any more. Just get a little burr on each side in turn, and hone normally, with regular laps, to finish the bevel. Not that it really makes that much difference.
Just don't do the Burr Method on a show piece! I did it on a minty Klas Tornblom... It shaves really well, but will never look pretty. lol
It definitely works though!
