Stropping

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Lol, yeah I got up this morning and looked for razors in the 19 degree range... and damned if natural selection hasn't taken them. 16 degrees is about the heaviest grind I could find among the 60 or so razors I've still got kicking around. So I honed up and 16 degree blade, and before I started, I read the whole manual instead of the quick start guide...

And is says basically the fulcrum is only designed for use with knives and for other things, it may be best to freehand (what I'm doing exactly) or build a special fixture for lowering the blade (what I've suggested would be best).

Still curious exactly the problem, and I'm pretty convinced it's this:

The blade is rotating downward with the toe stationary in the jelly material in the fulcrum. This means that the point of edge that contacts the media must move outward because it's traveling an arc length on a circle, not a straight path (we call this a rocking or rolling cut instead of a push cut). This creates a sawing motion microscopically... and this is why the overly heavy stropping is so good. It's actually DULLING the razor by removing the excessively thin microscopic teeth that a lighter stropping merely aligns (and generally will be gradually removed over dozens of uses + strops), the same teeth that snag in the media when it's moved in a sawing motion and basically do a lemmings off a cliff scenario, plowing out the big "chip" in the edge. So very heavy stropping, rounds up the edge, which still passes @ very low readings because it's still highly polished and relatively thin (compared to knives and DE blades), while making the razor less likely to crumble at the edge as a result of the sawing motion the fulcrum creates.

Problem is, I like a thin razor and I've got a houseful of 13 and 14 degree ones, also I like my strops and don't trust that I won't nick one if I go hog wild on pressure. The result is the edges can't handle that sawing action.

Went ahead and tested the 16 degree razor and it held up even with the fulcrum.
24g without and 21g with the fulcrum, no chips under 400x from either.

Sad part is every 13-15 degree razor I've tried doesn't survive the fulcrum test... and that is MOST of what I own, but at least it seems without the fulcrum we're good.

I've gotten results as low as 8g with the freehand tests and included media just grabbing random razors off my desk.

Damn, I knew I should have watched that video.

I will read the enclosed material!

Ok, going through my entire collection using this thing. Found 10 razors so far that struggle (<100) with the push cut method... One of the Herders I just bought (the other one works great... not surprisingly, the one working great had REALLY HARD steel, and the one that's having problems didn't) and then a LOT that have been sitting. Going to have to determine if it's a soft steel issue, a corrosion issue, or just that I never put a decent edge on each of them. At least a couple are recently honed, so for them I suspect it's just that the steel is too soft. I'll try removing some depth and see if it's just exterior steel on one when I have time. Still got about 20 more razors to go through, but I gotta head off to work now.

Most of the rest of my collection is in the single digits to 20, with an occasional 50-70 (8k finish or unstropped I'm guessing).

Now we're getting somewhere...

 

[SliceOfLife]

Yeah the herder may prove key. It’s chipping, and got plenty of depth to shave a bit off without much damage and see if the steel inside holds up better.

 

[RayClem]

I’m going to have to try one of my heaviest grind razors. Just took 8 razors to it. If I don’t use the fulcrum I get <30 grams every time and no damage. Using it I get 50+, and huge chunks of the edge destroyed. I think it has to do with the design involving a rocking cutting motion that razors aren’t suited for. I’m wondering if heavier ground razors will handle it better.

If you are getting sub 30 gram tests, you are producing some mighty fine edges. What are you using as your finishing hones and strops?

 

[SliceOfLife]

If you are getting sub 30 gram tests, you are producing some mighty fine edges. What are you using as your finishing hones and strops?

I mostly strop on vintage strops. I’ve got a konoyama and an Ambrose cordovan, but they’re hung up and I don’t rotate strops very often. Hones I’ve been using to test are Thuri Apache and sigma power 13k, but a lot of what I’ve grabbed is an edge from years ago, so could be almost anything.

My next steps are to sort out the razors that crumple on this device and see if they can be “fixed “ or if they are just too low angled and soft for this test. They don’t fail on shaves that I would remember, so seems this thing is a little harder on an edge than shaving. But I’ll need to pull them out so I don’t use them in tests by mistake, because grinding out all these chips is not fun.


Once that is done I can get back to what I bought it for on the other razors... comparing edges.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Alright. Home now and had a bit of time. Checked the rest of my razors.

Excluding ones that I'm not willing to risk a chip and display razors (rarities I never sharpen or shave), I've gone through my whole collection... about 30 razors on my desk.


The weakest... won't hold up to a push cut:
The One Herder (New) ~14.5* and very soft steel. I've honed into it a bit, and it still can't handle it. Just not tough enough.
The 7 day set (Used years ago to compare hones, not since) ~13*
Those 8 were the first 8 I was testing this with... great luck, right?
3 other random vintage razors I've not used in a long time took 150g+ for a push cut... could be they belong in this group, could just be very dull... I'll hone them up and retest at some point. (Two are 15.5*, one is 17*)

11 that won't push cut (3 need rehone and retest, 8 confirmed)

The middle: Can Push Cut, Can't Fulcrum cut:
One spike (This one is finished on an ultra-fine jnat that I know can leave thin razors a bit overly fragile, going to try another finish)
Pollak Gulliver
Ga Supplier and co
Cattaragus Cutlery
Gold Dollar

5 that can't fulcrum cut but can push cut (all need rehone and retest)

The strongest... can do fulcrum cut:
The other (hard steel) Herder
A Henkels 66 ~16.5* hard steel
Clauss 14* hard steel
The Hodgeson
Fa Clauberg Halberd
Aug Zeeb Manheim Badenia
Five of Six Spikes

11 that can fulcrum cut



So ALL the ones in the middle I'm gonna rehone, strop and try to fulcrum cut, as well as the three unhoned old razors that won't push cut easily. The majority of these I'm unsure of the edges on, and the spike as I mentioned has a very fragile edge on it.

This all would have been so much easier if I hadn't decided to do all my testing with a 7 day set I'd not used in several years that apparently is very fragile... and confirmed my results with a new razor I KNEW had very soft steel. But I think I've ALMOST got it all sorted out enough I can actually start doing tests that are actually interesting.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Ok: did the retests and results are in:

The spike that was in the push cut group got DOWNGRADED in (more demanding) retest... It's in the no pass group now.
The same for the Gulliver.
Gold Dollar was confirmed in push cut.
One of the 3 from the no pass got upgraded to fulcrum cut
Two stayed put
The Ga Supplier was discovered to be honed at one end and jagged at the other (probably came with a stone I purchased and never got touched)... honing attempt revealed it had lost its temper).
A replacement razor was added, tested and went in the no pass group (28 total now -1 bad temper, 27)
The Cattaragus got upgraded to fulcrum cut.

The results? Only the Gold Dollar left in push cut. The others have moved into fulcrum cut or No pass.

One added to replace one that got binned for having lost its temper
12 in no pass
Just the Gold Dollar in push cut only (This is coincidence and not a slight on GD's... remember it's sturdier than 12 vintages)
14 now can handle fulcrum cut with a properly prepared edge


While the fulcrum action does increase stress on the edge, it appears to be far less significant than earlier tests suggested... probably due to me juggling razors when the first batch got chipped and a lot of coincidences of grabbing stronger razors for push cuts and weaker ones for fulcrum cuts (mainly precipitated by starting on a weak 7 day set and fulcrum cuts).

What is evident is that cutting the media, fishing line, almost anything that's NOT hair is FAR harder on an edge than shaving is. There are 12 in the no-cut group. The 7 day set was used in the past to compare edges, and while I DID decide that that set was too fine to hold up for a shave with one or two of my JNAT's, they shaved just fine off most everything else. There's nothing wrong with the razors, they're just very thin ground and softer steel than many... yet they can't be tested with this device as a result. The soft Herder SEEMS like it's in the same boat (but I haven't shave tested it yet). Two of the other four are excellent shavers... just very low angle and soft steel. They were both in my rotation. The last two are a bit softer steel than I like, but hold up to a shave with most finishes (again, my finest Jnats are not good hones for these razors).

 

[SliceOfLife]

Added a Stainless Gold Dollar. It's fine with fulcrum cut. Final results:

12 too soft to use with device
1 too soft to use with fulcrum
15 good to go.


Stainless gold dollar sitting for over 3 years, unknown finish (probably Thuri) freshly stropped... = 35g btw.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Alright, so at least two of the "good to go" on the Apache edge (what I did the retests on) are failing on my finer edges. So there's definitely a limitation here for the refinement the device is able to measure, that may only be surmountable by selecting very hard steel razors. Now I've got to sort out and find my hardest steel razors to use with it.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Testing the Herder (Very hard steel ~20* angle) off a Jnat.

Testing a Spike (13.25* angle) off my finest Coticule.

 

[jlcampi]

Gentlemen,

It has been some time since created this post. Prior to the heavy stropping method I was constantly honing (possibly due to poor form) however; I have not honed a single time since creating this thread. When the razor seemed dull I would make about 3-5 passes (one pass is up and back) on a 3.5 inch wide strop with my thumb on the center of the blade (pressing very hard).

What I think is interesting is that blade maintenance went from about 3 hours per week to about 3 hours/6 mos. Blade maintenance has essentially gone away with the exception of stropping - each session is no more than 30 seconds, although I have not timed. If you are thinking about dividing 30 seconds into 3 hours to determine how often I use the stop you will most certainly obtain an inaccurate number. The 3 hours/6 mos is nothing more than my attempt to show the the dramatic difference in maintenance now that I am using this method. It also seems to require almost no skill if you start with a sharp blade. In some ways it seems that this method is so efficient that I tend to miss the process of attempting to achieve an ever sharper blade. It's now just unnecessary. Anything I do in terms of trying to increase sharpness actually dulls the blade. Of course I am referring to how a shave feels. I may be able to obtain a lower number on the equipment however; this is useful in comparing methods against a standard not how a razor feels during a shave.

It seems that honing is not really necessary unless the blade is damaged. It's far too early to stand behind this emphatically however; the constant sharpening/honing is certainly not necessary.

As a side note I was in Park City a few weeks ago and enjoyed a barber's shave and haircut. According to the barber, it's illegal to use anything other than a shavette (sp). The regulators are concerned about the sanitary conditions of using the same blade on multiple clients (of course I didn't verify his statement). This guy worked on me for quite some time. I can say without a doubt that my Dovo Flowing provides a dramatically closer shave than what he was able to obtain with some serious prep work, a new blade and about 20 mins of shave time. I splash some hot water on my face and take about 3-5 mins to lather up. I do repeatedly relather and I go over an area at least twice. My total time actually shaving is no more than 5-7 mins. One thing I immediately noticed was his shaving method was very different than mine. He used very short strokes covering about 1/4 inch and then back up about an 1/8 of an inch followed by another down stroke of about 1/4 inch. One cycle occurred quickly. With the exception of my chin, I take very long strokes. For example, I may cover from my sideburn to my jaw line in one stroke.

I'm sure there will be some comments on this post. Please provide any critical comments you wish. Like you, I am here to learn as much as possible (within reason, of course).

J

 

[jlcampi]

One more quick point. There is a sweet spot in terms of the number of passes on the strop. I have not objectively tested this. I do know that it takes just a few hard passes to reach optimal sharpness (for shaving).

What I haven't tried yet, but now want to test is what happens with just a single hard pass or two on each side of the razor.

 

[Alum of Potash]

I've missed the earlier posts; but with regard to "hard passes" on a strop, I would like to make a comment. A friend of mine, who is a razor and strop vendor in France, gave me a counsel to start out with 2-3 very short, longitudinal laps in starting out on the strop with a little pressure, so as to clear or reestablish the edge effectively after shaving. "A lot of folks forget this," he told me. Then a few dozen light, longer laps as to the finish. Since then, I've followed his advice to good effect. Much may also have to do with how one grips the shank while stropping. I tend to grip the shank more from side to side, with a slight turn of the wrist during the flip, rather than from top to bottom with a pencil-roll flip.

 

[jlcampi]

I've missed the earlier posts; but with regard to "hard passes" on a strop, I would like to make a comment. A friend of mine, who is a razor and strop vendor in France, gave me a counsel to start out with 2-3 very short, longitudinal laps in starting out on the strop with a little pressure, so as to clear or reestablish the edge effectively after shaving. "A lot of folks forget this," he told me. Then a few dozen light, longer laps as to the finish. Since then, I've followed his advice to good effect. Much may also have to do with how one grips the shank while stropping. I tend to grip the shank more from side to side, with a slight turn of the wrist during the flip, rather than from top to bottom with a pencil-roll flip.

I an fairly new to learning this skill and find that while you must be correct when the all of the previous steps in blae maintenance have been performed properly (sharpening and honing) however; if that component of your skill set has not reached proficiency, the hard press stropping seems to fix some of errors. Please note that I don not mean blade damage.

I think I may have mentioned that a few if my Benchmade Folders easily dropped a hundred points on the C-Bess Scale. A few were even into the sub 50 g range. Also I sharpen those at an angle of 20 to 25 degrees and the pocket knife will shave the hair off of my arm just as fast as the Dovo...

 

[stone and strop]

There is really no need to press hard when stropping.
A little pressure is required when stropping. Many have said "only the weight of the razor". This is NOT true.
Given a little pressure is used and regular stropping, say 60-80 strokes. Very little time is spent stropping and excellent results will be had - every time.