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Stropping

Gentlemen,

I am fairly new to this manner of shaving. About 2 years ago I was in Italy and came across a straight razor. It looked interesting so I purchased. Over the next 2 years I became nearly obsessed with learning to property sharpen and hone that plus a couple of new razors. I wathched so many videos I have lost count, I purchased several types of whet stone sets including the full set of Shapton Glass Stones from 1000 to 30000 grit and the referance lapping plate. Of course I also purchased the Norton set, their lapping plate and the DMT full set of DiaSharp plates and their lapping plate. I have tried every imaginable combination and method to sharpen and hone my Dovo Flowing razor. I could easily get the razor sharp enough to slice through the hair on my arms and legs dry. When I came to my coarse facial hair, it has always been painful around chin.

One of the problems I discovered early on was that two of my razors were not flat. I flattened them and this made a slight improvement.

I even purchased the Edge on Up, Bess Certified Industrial Edge Tester. This is a scale that measures the force (in grams) necessary to cut through a standard, certified test media. The lower the number, the sharper the edge.

A high end cutlery edge is around 300 grams new
A utility razor just under 200 grams
A double edge razor blade is about 40 to 60 grams.

My efforts were getting me in the 150 range until I made one significant change. Rather than applying the lightest pressure I could when stropping, I tried heavy pressure.

This is where it all came together. My Dovo Flowing dropped to a Bess Certified sharpness of 33 with 10 high pressure laps on the strop. In fact I had used it for extensize shaving and it would barely cut hair. Rather than trying to clean up the edge like I usually do I went straight to the strop, applied excessive pressure (you only need 5 laps each side) and went to the Edge on Up Industrial Edge Scale and I almost could not believe the results, a 33. I had never seen this low (sharp) of a number.

Typically when done honing I will test the razor on my arm hair, passing it above the skin and waiting to hair that ting, ting of the hair popping off of the edge. Typically I will hear a few hair pop and end up being disappointed. This time it was more like they exploded off of my arm.

I have an estensive collection of Benchmade knives, many that are new. I decided to test them before and after this new method of stropping. Most came out of the factory with a Bess Certified Sharpness of 150 to 180. What Bess describes as sharp utility razor blaze. They will shave the hair on my arm to some degree. I ran then over the strop, nearly all of them, and in every case, then dropped at least 50 points. One in particular dropped to a 25, lower than my Dove Flowing and I put a 17 degree angle or 34 degree inclusive on each side.

What do you gentlemen make of this. Keep in mind that the force I am using is excessive. In some cases I was wondering if the I would accidentally break the scale or handle if my hand slipped.
 
When sharpening a straight razor, the key is to use lower grit hones (normally 1K) to "set the bevel" on the razor. Setting the bevel means that you have refined the two sides of the blade to the point that they come together at an apex. Until you produce that apex, you will never get a decent shave. Once you produce the apex all along the length of the blade from heal to toe, then you start to use higher grit hones to remove the scratches left over from the bevel setting process. If you go far enough (and the Shapton Glass 30K qualifies), you should have a mirror finished bevel that will cut your beard easily. However, if you did not get the bevel set in the first stage of the process, you can end up with perfectly polished bevels that do not meet at an apex and will not give a decent shave.

Your comment about making the edge sharper after using some heavy pressure strokes is an indication that the bevel may not have been set before that point.
 
Stropping is King. This is the old maxim of straight razor shaving and has been around longer than us.

You're doing it right.

Chris
 

Chan Eil Whiskers

Fumbling about.
Gentlemen,

I am fairly new to this manner of shaving. About 2 years ago I was in Italy and came across a straight razor. It looked interesting so I purchased. Over the next 2 years I became nearly obsessed with learning to property sharpen and hone that plus a couple of new razors. I wathched so many videos I have lost count, I purchased several types of whet stone sets including the full set of Shapton Glass Stones from 1000 to 30000 grit and the referance lapping plate. Of course I also purchased the Norton set, their lapping plate and the DMT full set of DiaSharp plates and their lapping plate. I have tried every imaginable combination and method to sharpen and hone my Dovo Flowing razor. I could easily get the razor sharp enough to slice through the hair on my arms and legs dry. When I came to my coarse facial hair, it has always been painful around chin.

One of the problems I discovered early on was that two of my razors were not flat. I flattened them and this made a slight improvement.

I even purchased the Edge on Up, Bess Certified Industrial Edge Tester. This is a scale that measures the force (in grams) necessary to cut through a standard, certified test media. The lower the number, the sharper the edge.

A high end cutlery edge is around 300 grams new
A utility razor just under 200 grams
A double edge razor blade is about 40 to 60 grams.

My efforts were getting me in the 150 range until I made one significant change. Rather than applying the lightest pressure I could when stropping, I tried heavy pressure.

This is where it all came together. My Dovo Flowing dropped to a Bess Certified sharpness of 33 with 10 high pressure laps on the strop. In fact I had used it for extensize shaving and it would barely cut hair. Rather than trying to clean up the edge like I usually do I went straight to the strop, applied excessive pressure (you only need 5 laps each side) and went to the Edge on Up Industrial Edge Scale and I almost could not believe the results, a 33. I had never seen this low (sharp) of a number.

Typically when done honing I will test the razor on my arm hair, passing it above the skin and waiting to hair that ting, ting of the hair popping off of the edge. Typically I will hear a few hair pop and end up being disappointed. This time it was more like they exploded off of my arm.

I have an estensive collection of Benchmade knives, many that are new. I decided to test them before and after this new method of stropping. Most came out of the factory with a Bess Certified Sharpness of 150 to 180. What Bess describes as sharp utility razor blaze. They will shave the hair on my arm to some degree. I ran then over the strop, nearly all of them, and in every case, then dropped at least 50 points. One in particular dropped to a 25, lower than my Dove Flowing and I put a 17 degree angle or 34 degree inclusive on each side.

What do you gentlemen make of this. Keep in mind that the force I am using is excessive. In some cases I was wondering if the I would accidentally break the scale or handle if my hand slipped.

Very interesting post.

I hope you continue discussing things like this.

Happy shaves,

Jim
 
When sharpening a straight razor, the key is to use lower grit hones (normally 1K) to "set the bevel" on the razor. Setting the bevel means that you have refined the two sides of the blade to the point that they come together at an apex. Until you produce that apex, you will never get a decent shave. Once you produce the apex all along the length of the blade from heal to toe, then you start to use higher grit hones to remove the scratches left over from the bevel setting process. If you go far enough (and the Shapton Glass 30K qualifies), you should have a mirror finished bevel that will cut your beard easily. However, if you did not get the bevel set in the first stage of the process, you can end up with perfectly polished bevels that do not meet at an apex and will not give a decent shave.

Your comment about making the edge sharper after using some heavy pressure strokes is an indication that the bevel may not have been set before that point.

Thank you all for commenting. Ray, you must be on to something here. Keep in mind that I have followed, to the best of my ability, the process of setting the bevel at 1000. Typically when a bur is formed along the full length of the edge ( and only then) I move up (4, 8, 16 and finally 30k grit). The stones were flattened with a reference lapping plate before I attempted to set the bevel. I must admit that I have gone through the process many times over the last 2 years, at times compulsively.

I mentioned running my Benchmade knives through this short stropping process. If you are not familiar, Benchmade is a high quality manufacturer. I won't go into the specifics but I have more than 20. At least half are new or in like new condition. In other words, the factory edge is in place. Nearly all will shave the hair on my arm out of the box. Every one of them that was stropped using this high pressure technique (about 25 knives) improved their Bess Certified Edge by about 30%. The average was about 100 g. Bess would place this measurement in between a utility razor and double sided razor blade. One of the knives, the Benchmade Fact dropped from about 150 to 25. This is the lowest score I have ever seen. All I did was about 10 high pressure laps - nothing else.

My guess is that Benchmade sets a proper bevel. They use 30 to 35 degrees inclusive (15 to 17.5 degrees per side).

How do I know if the bevel is set properly?

Any thoughts, including criticism is encouraged.

What I don't think is that I have discovered something that was missed by the millions that have gone before me...although higher pressure seems to be fairly common in other area of sharpening such as woodworking.

Thank you all for the thoughtful replies.

Jim
 
I do tend to use a fair amount of pressure when I first start to hone on a stone. I usually start doing circles. The number of circles on each side depends on how much I think is needed. I might start with 40 circles on a dull blade and then drop to 35, 30,25,20, 15, 10, 9,8,7,6,5, 4, 3,2 then x-strokes with pressure gradually becoming lighter. Others use axe strokes. Others use nothing but x-strokes.

I know some folks here use the burr method, but I have never done that. There are lots of ways of checking to see if the bevel is set. I have used most of them. I use the thumb nail test, the thumb pad test, the three finger test, the paper cut test, the cherry tomato or grape cut test, and visual inspection using a USB microscope. I also do the arm hair test. A razor with a set bevel should shave arm hair at skin level.

Once you get the bevel set, everything else is just refining the edge, making it sharper and smoother. I tend to go back to circles with the intermediate hones, but start at 15 and work my way down to x-strokes. As you get to higher grit hones, the edge is becoming quite thin. You have to be very careful not to roll the edge as you flip the blade.

Once I get past bevel set, the only tests I use are the three-finger test and microscopic inspection and the arm hair test. Be sure you strop the blade before the AHT as the razor edge needs to be properly aligned to pass the test. Once I get to my finishing hones, I can pop arm hairs at 1/4" - 1/2" above skin level.
 

Chan Eil Whiskers

Fumbling about.
I've been pondering the top post of this thread over night. Never before had I read about an instrument which actually measures and and quantifies the sharpness of an edge.

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Sharpening Supplies sells these babies, and they have more than one model. There are at least two methods of testing the edge using the devices (according to what I've read). Link. The instruments are available elsewhere, too, of course. I've not shopped around. I'm not fixing to buy one of these instruments.

It's amazing to me I've not seen or heard of this device before. I'm embarrassed that I hadn't conceived of such an instrument and searched to see if one had been invented. Of course this sort of tool is in existence. It's necessary in many settings to quantify and accurately compare as opposed to guessing and sharing vague information.

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Thank you, Jim @jlcampi, for starting this thread and for bringing to my attention this instrument. Perhaps instead of buying endless stones we should all buy one of these devices, quit guessing, and share actual data with one another.

We could even have a sub-forum to argue discuss the best way to use the PT50 Series Sharpness Testers from Edge-On-Up!

upload_2019-3-31_10-11-59.jpeg


I've read this thread a number of times and pondered everything a bit. I can not discount your findings. If you're right, and I don't see how you could not be right as you have the numbers to back you up it's important stuff in my view that you've introduced here.

I do have a couple of questions and/or comments.
  • I know the instrument is not measuring the edge's mellowness, but what is your impression of how your extreme stropping changes or improves or degrades the comfort and smoothness and mellowness of your edges.
  • Could you go into some detail in describing exactly how you're stropping?
  • How are you insuring you're not rolling your edges?
I'm assuming you're using regular stropping along with the extremely heavy stropping, but maybe not. Maybe all you're doing is a few laps of extremely heavy stropping?

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How heavy? How much pressure? Are you using any particular strop (board, paddle, hanging) or type of leather or what exactly?

I realize it's not so easy explaining or describing stropping. Even more difficult is describing something which is marked different from the norm? How different? It probably needs to be quantified but I don't see any way to do that, so I'll try to listen carefully to what you say.

To a degree any of us can test (shave test) your heavy stropping method, right?

Thanks again, and happy shaves,

Jim
 
There is a website that has tested a lot of DE razor blades using this type of test. I am not sure whether it is the same instrument.
The test measures the force needed to sever a calibrated test medium.

Razor Blade Sharpness Testing » refined shave

I have found that my subjective evaluation of many of the blades tested by the author has correlated rather well.

While I have found that having objective numbers to assign to DE blades is quite useful in determining which blades to purchase, I am not sure that the test is quite a useful when honing straight razors. When honing, we need to produce an edge that is both sharp and smooth, so the only test that really counts is the shave test.
 

Chan Eil Whiskers

Fumbling about.
There is a website that has tested a lot of DE razor blades using this type of test. I am not sure whether it is the same instrument.
The test measures the force needed to sever a calibrated test medium.

Razor Blade Sharpness Testing » refined shave

I have found that my subjective evaluation of many of the blades tested by the author has correlated rather well.

While I have found that having objective numbers to assign to DE blades is quite useful in determining which blades to purchase, I am not sure that the test is quite a useful when honing straight razors. When honing, we need to produce an edge that is both sharp and smooth, so the only test that really counts is the shave test.

I couldn't agree more with the shave test being all important. I also believe, as do you, we need an edge both sharp and smooth (comfortable/mellow).

However, I think it incorrect (but what do I know) to say the only test that matters is the shave test.

In looking at the various DE blades there is very little difference between the blades in terms of their numbers vis a vis this testing. The website you linked to is well known to me. I've looked at his stuff many times. He is interested in smoothness and comfort, too, of course, but finds those subjective. As I look at some of the blades I like and dislike I believe the telling variable is not whether they have a score of 37 or a score of 44. That difference really is very, very small. The telling difference is their comfort. That's not to say that a DE blade with a sharpness score of 68 would be just as sharp as the sharpest blades tested. It is to say that sharpness is not everything. Sharpness counts, but it's not the only important factor.

However, the OP is talking about sharpness scores which (by stropping) drop from 150 or so to 33. That's going from a not shave ready edge to an extremely sharp edge (sharper than any manufactured double edge blade; a Feather is 32). As I read his posts I find what he's talking about quite remarkable.
  • He's quantifying sharpness using an industrial grade instrument.
  • He's dropping sharpness scores by a very significant amount (lower is better).
  • He's not honing better or on better stones. The changes are from stropping heavier.
I believe you and I are after the same thing - a very sharp but also very mellow edge - and we're not the only ones. We might disagree on how sharp a blade should be but I doubt we'd disagree by much (of course I could be wrong). I'd say I've used straight razors that were so sharp I don't think there's any reason to have one sharper. I'd also say as long as the edge is comfortable it's hard for me to imagine a straight razor edge that's too sharp.

That might just be my ignorance about how sharp a straight razor can get, but I doubt it.

As long as the razor is sharp enough I'm more about the mellow edge and comfort than anything else - my coticule use of late is a dead giveaway - but I know the coticule, using my Dilucot Oil Honing method can produce a killer sharp edge. It would be interesting to know how it compares with a Feather DE.

Of course, I can shave with my Feather SS loaded with a Proline to compare the sharpness of that edge with my straight razors. I've found that an interesting and helpful exercise, one which convinced me to up my honing game (and buy more stones of course). But, maybe all I needed to do was strop heavy.

Like you, I don't care about the edge's sharpness numbers if the shave is uncomfortable or ruins my skin.

Happy shaves,

Jim
 
If your using a hanging strop, I would suggest not holding it as taut and reducing your pressure as well. You can strop with too light of a pressure, but if your fearing perhaps breaking the scales . . .

My edge steadily degraded until I started using what I would call moderate pressure up from light pressure.
 
I couldn't agree more with the shave test being all important. I also believe, as do you, we need an edge both sharp and smooth (comfortable/mellow).

However, I think it incorrect (but what do I know) to say the only test that matters is the shave test.


Jim


Jim

I agree with your comments. I just did not copy them all.

You do not need a laboratory tester to determine that an edge with a sharpness of 33 is sharper than an edge with a sharpness of 150. Any of the standard subjective tests we commonly use would make that distinction. My comment about the shave test being the "only test that matters" is that it is the only test that allows us to evaluate both the sharpness and smoothess of the blade. We use other tests, whether subjective or objective, to predict whether or not the edge will be sharp enough to pass the shave test.

The only test I know of that can assist in predicting blade smoothness/harshness is microscopic evaluation of the bevel. If the edge is uneven with microchips or pitting, the shave will not be smooth. I would love to have an scanning electron microscope to examine my edges, but they can cost about $1 million, somewhat outside my shaving budget. I settle for a Celestron 5MP USB microscope.
 

Chan Eil Whiskers

Fumbling about.
Jim

I agree with your comments. I just did not copy them all.

You do not need a laboratory tester to determine that an edge with a sharpness of 33 is sharper than an edge with a sharpness of 150. Any of the standard subjective tests we commonly use would make that distinction. My comment about the shave test being the "only test that matters" is that it is the only test that allows us to evaluate both the sharpness and smoothness of the blade. We use other tests, whether subjective or objective, to predict whether or not the edge will be sharp enough to pass the shave test.

The only test I know of that can assist in predicting blade smoothness/harshness is microscopic evaluation of the bevel. If the edge is uneven with microchips or pitting, the shave will not be smooth. I would love to have a scanning electron microscope to examine my edges, but they can cost about $1 million, somewhat outside my shaving budget. I settle for a Celestron 5MP USB microscope.

Ray, we're on the same page I think.

I think the instrument sounds cool and useful, but I can tell if my edges are sharp enough. The most interesting part of the OP is, to me, the marked increase in his razor's and knives' sharpness as the result of heavy stropping pressure.

It would be fun to compare our edges in a totally objective way with such an instrument I think.

I might prefer a few CNC machines, but I could enjoy an electron microscope I suppose. I suppose there's a learning curve, but what else is new.

Happy shaves,

Jim
 
Ray, we're on the same page I think.

I think the instrument sounds cool and useful, but I can tell if my edges are sharp enough. The most interesting part of the OP is, to me, the marked increase in his razor's and knives' sharpness as the result of heavy stropping pressure.

It would be fun to compare our edges in a totally objective way with such an instrument I think.

I might prefer a few CNC machines, but I could enjoy an electron microscope I suppose. I suppose there's a learning curve, but what else is new.

Happy shaves,

Jim


I did go to the Sharpening Supplies web site to look at their testers. They have three versions. The "home" version is only $129, but it only has an accuracy of 25 grams. That might work if you are sharpening knives for home use, but that is not nearly accurate enough for razors. The "Professional" version is $179, but that only improves the accuracy to 10 grams. That would get you in the ballpark. The "Industrial" version costs $259 and improves the accuracy to 1 gram.

Based on the values shown on the Refined Shave web site for various DE blades, they range between 32 grams (Feather) and 67 (Tian Li). Anything over 50 is too dull for my beard. I prefer blades between 35 and 45. Thus, to achieve the needed precision, you would need the more expensive "Industrial" tester.

A cost of $259 might be too pricey for those who hone their own razors. However, I can see that it might be useful for those who hone razors for others. Straight razor enthusiasts will pay that much for a new razor or more expensive hones, so why not a sharpness tester?
 

Chan Eil Whiskers

Fumbling about.
Sharpening Supplies...three versions...The "Industrial" version costs $259 and improves the accuracy to 1 gram...you would need the more expensive "Industrial" tester...Straight razor enthusiasts will pay that much for a new razor or more expensive hones, so why not a sharpness tester?

My thoughts exactly.

I'm hoping the OP will tell us a lot more about how he strops. I don't need to quantitate the sharpness of my edges but can my edges become sharper merely by stropping more heavily? That would be a very big deal I think.

Mostly I hear people advising what sounds like to me to be very light stropping, although advice is all over the place.

Happy shaves,

Jim
 
Gentlemen,
I just noted that there are a number of replied to my post. I am off to work but will reply this evening.

One point I want to make and perhaps some of you have some insight on this. My understanding is that an edge can be toothy. Apparently continued use of finer grain whet stones decreases the "toothiness" of the edge.

If I were cutting a tomato, apparently a toothy edge is better as it grabs the smooth surface and tears. This helps to penetrate the skin.

I presume this type of edge is not wanted in a smooth shave. Since the testing equipment is based on pressure with no lateral movement, the "toothiness" of the edge is not tested.

One more quick bit of information. More laps is degrades the edge. I am now finding that 4 to 8 laps is about right to optimize the edge.

Try this. Hold your razor as you typically would and apply as much pressure as feel will allow even distribution across the edge. 8 laps, with the bade flush as usual (for a razor). For knives I use about a 17 degree angle. Then use any sharpness test you would usually use and I bet you will be pleasantly surprised.

I am slightly taller than 6 ft, weigh about 225 and try to hit the weights 3 to 4 times per week. So I am using significant pressure. In some cases I have wondered if the razor or knife would be damaged or I would pull the strop from the wall.
 

Chan Eil Whiskers

Fumbling about.
Gentlemen,
I just noted that there are a number of replied to my post. I am off to work but will reply this evening.

One point I want to make and perhaps some of you have some insight on this. My understanding is that an edge can be toothy. Apparently continued use of finer grain whet stones decreases the "toothiness" of the edge.

If I were cutting a tomato, apparently a toothy edge is better as it grabs the smooth surface and tears. This helps to penetrate the skin.

I presume this type of edge is not wanted in a smooth shave. Since the testing equipment is based on pressure with no lateral movement, the "toothiness" of the edge is not tested.

One more quick bit of information. More laps is degrades the edge. I am now finding that 4 to 8 laps is about right to optimize the edge.

Try this. Hold your razor as you typically would and apply as much pressure as feel will allow even distribution across the edge. 8 laps, with the bade flush as usual (for a razor). For knives I use about a 17 degree angle. Then use any sharpness test you would usually use and I bet you will be pleasantly surprised.

I am slightly taller than 6 ft, weigh about 225 and try to hit the weights 3 to 4 times per week. So I am using significant pressure. In some cases I have wondered if the razor or knife would be damaged or I would pull the strop from the wall.

Thank for the helpful answer.

Another question. Do you strop very heavily between each use of the razor? Or, do you strop heavily coming off the stones and then strop between shaves in a more "normal" manner?

Thanks and happy shaves,

Jim
 
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