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Straightening Out Edge When Honing

I’ve found that finishing the modern German razors to be somewhat of a cat and mouse game when I’m at 8K and above. I use enough pressure on the 8K to wipe out the 5K work in 10 strokes or less if I can get away with it.

Also bear in mind that some 8000 grit stones will give you a little more grace at 12,000. For example, an 8000 grit stone that’s a little less fine than another gives me a little more flexibility on the 12K stone as far as stroke count goes.

Also, some have experimented with trace amounts of slurry on both the 8K and the 12K stone in an attempt to try to keep the edge from getting too thin too fast saving the final finishing strokes on a clean stone for the very end.
 
some have experimented with trace amounts of slurry on both the 8K and the 12K stone in an attempt to try to keep the edge from getting too thin too fast saving the final finishing strokes on a clean stone for the very end.
The edge will not get too thin if you don't chase a mirror all the way to the bevel shoulder. The actual apex/edge is done long before all the striation are removed from the base of the the bevel. As the bevel gets thinner the stone cuts deeper at the bevel shoulder then at the apex. So, as you are chasing a perfect mirror you are also messing up the apex.

When you see what slurry does to an edge at 8k you stop doing it. It looks like you shot the apex with a shot gun.
This is more problematic on harder stones. With a soft Naniwa superstone you are less likely to cause problems compared to a hard shapton glass stone.
My honing got allot simpler and more consistant when i just avoided using slurry after 3-4k.

I usually target 5-10 strokes on my 8k and usually do less after this on the higher grit stones. You can get away with more strokes, but you are then heading for the cliff quite fast.
 
What helped me when I was in the stage of not being able to produce nice shaving edge and unsure of what/how to do it...

1. Consistency in the stroke - how much pressure I'm applying, is it focused on the middle or am I rolling it, am I twisting my fingers to put more on the edge than the spine, etc. Each stroke needs to be the same.

2. Lighten up a bit - get into a zone where I'm not rushing it. I'm far less concerned about how many strokes I do, how long it takes, is it enough now? Can I go to another stone yet? So, I lightened up the pressure applied, and focused on feeling and hearing the razor on the stone. Slowly I started developing some sense of - I can feel this stone is done. And when I checked the edge and bevels under a scope, they sure looked really well. When I test shaved - it sure shaved better than last time.

3. Don't get too hung up on how it looks now. Take pics with notes - that's fine. What's far more useful for me is taking a pic of the edge, shaving with it. Re-honing the razor, taking a pic, shaving with it. Was it a better shave? Compare pics, try to understand why. Was it a worse shave? Same thing.

If you can shave with your own edge, but it's not perfect, and someone elses edge is better... Makes sense if that someone was honing for years and you were for weeks.

With each honing session, I aim to better every step, to perfect each stroke, to max every stone. When I have a particularly good session, I have an edge that's beautiful to shave with and it also looks nice under the scope (which is absolutely useless honestly).

When I'm not in the right mood, I mess up even the tiniest of details, the quality of the edge and shave takes a hit.
 
The edge will not get too thin if you don't chase a mirror all the way to the bevel shoulder. The actual apex/edge is done long before all the striation are removed from the base of the the bevel. As the bevel gets thinner the stone cuts deeper at the bevel shoulder then at the apex. So, as you are chasing a perfect mirror you are also messing up the apex.

When you see what slurry does to an edge at 8k you stop doing it. It looks like you shot the apex with a shot gun.
This is more problematic on harder stones. With a soft Naniwa superstone you are less likely to cause problems compared to a hard shapton glass stone.
My honing got allot simpler and more consistant when i just avoided using slurry after 3-4k.

I usually target 5-10 strokes on my 8k and usually do less after this on the higher grit stones. You can get away with more strokes, but you are then heading for the cliff quite fast.
Thanks for sharing your observations. I agree with your observations about the liabilities of chasing mirror and that some of the Shapton Glass stones must be used carefully.

For some reason, everything I’ve ever observed is almost 180° opposed to what you have observed yourself when it comes to the use of slurry on synthetics although it should be noted that when using synthetic slurry past 5K I am in fact going to limit this to the Super Stone Series.

I always see cutting action from the base of the bevel, then out towards the cutting edge last even on flat stones without the use of slurry for some reason.

As far as damage to the Apex from slurry on the few occasions that I’ve used it, that’s kind of the point actually.

The reason I would use slurry past a certain grit level is to to retard the formation of the absolute cutting edge (saving that for later) especially since I’m already seeing the apex not fully developing until last anyway even without slurry.

In summary, I tend to observe more edge fatigue without slurry especially on stones beyond 5K.
 
For some reason, everything I’ve ever observed is almost 180° opposed to what you have observed yourself when it comes to the use of slurry on synthetics
If you use allot of half strokes on synthetic stones without slurry the edge will just fall apart and a flimsy edge can develop.
Adding slurry prevents this from happening, and you can still get a good edge finishing with one directional water only laps.

If you only use the stones with water, and do one directional strokes you don't get edge fatigue, and the edge will be good if you don't overdo it.

Slurry is a really good way to get by with a limited number of stones. You can get allot done with just an 8k, a dmt plate and a finisher.
Both the Super Stones and 8k Fuji is great for this.

If I use slurry i will not use the same teqnique as when I use the stones clean.
Doing smaller jumps eliminate any need for slurry for me.
Adding large dmt slurry particles at 12k is really not moving the edge forward based on my experience.

It's not black and white!
 
“I was hoping someone could explain like I'm 5 how you're supposed to both remove the stria and ensure the edge is straight, and if this is normal or I just messed up with my technique.”

This is a common new honer issue, it is likely pressure and technique.

The goal of bevel setting, no matter which brand or grit stone you use, is to grind the bevels flat, at the correct angle and to get the bevels meeting.

If you bevel set with a 1k, the edge will look a bit rough because the 1k grit cuts deep 1k stria that ends in 1k micro-chips.

Once the bevels are flat and meeting, then the progressively finer stones polish off the deep stria with shallower grit and make finer stria. The stria that reaches the edge ends in finer microchips.

The finer the stone/grit the smaller the stria and micro chip at the edge and the straighter the edge becomes, and the more comfortable it shaves.

If you use synthetic slurry, it can edge impact on the slurry and make the edge rough, but will make a synthetic stone more aggressive, and set a bevel or remove previous stria faster.

So, if you use slurry, just hone the razor at each stone in 2 steps. Use slurry to cut the bevel or remove stria, then rinse the stone and do 10-20 lite finish X laps to refine, rehabilitate the edge and reduce the stria height, (perfect the bevel at each stone).

As said you do not need to remove all the deep stria, just the stria that reaches the edge…

Yea, how do you do that?

Just remove all the deep stria. A mirror bevel will shave just fine, if the edge is straight. The goal is not to make a mirror bevel for looks, the mirror bevel is a by-product of removing ALL the previous stria to make the edge as straight as possible.

Or just take your rough edge and joint it, a single lite stroke on the face of the stone. This will cut off the rough edge and make it laser straight, but the bevels will microscopically no-longer be meeting.

If your bevels are flat, 3-10 X laps on an 8-12k stone with just water, will bring the bevels back to meeting fully at the edge that is already straight.

Try it. If it doesn’t work for you, don’t use it, if it works, rock on.

BTW you will remove microns of steel, the fin or burr, but if you hone off the burr on a rough edge you will remove exactly the same amount of steel.

No drama, there are no rules. Find what works for you and perfect it.
 
I lightened up the pressure applied, and focused on feeling and hearing the razor on the stone.
Great advice all round. I want to expand on this point with a hint, for me a really good way of getting into a light pressure rhythm is to try to place the razor on the stone as gently as possible at the start of each stroke. If you slam it down your body is going to lean into the stroke a bit more but if you lower it very gently you set yourself up for a nice light touch through the stroke. The flip is important!
 
The same advice applies to stropping, you can easily roll or ruin an edge by slamming the edge onto the strop. Flip with your fingers, not your wrist land the bevel after the razor is moving.

Remember the edge, the actual cutting edge is so fine and thin that we cannot see it without SEM magnification. It can easily be damaged.
 
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