Stones ordered, tell me how I messed up

[APBinNCA]

I wanted to get the Shapton Glass stones, but I am unable to find the right combination of shipping time, price and payment method. $70 is not a reasonable number for shipping stones, period. Neither is folding an additional $50 in the price of the product. That rant over, I ended up with the Shapton Pro 1.5k and 5k.

I was messaging back and forth with Keith Johnson about something else on his Etsy shop and he kept trying not to take my money! But I took a lot of his time, that isn't a fair deal so I hope this makes up for it a little. Anyway, those were the stones he had and I decided he deserved my money so I ordered them.

I originally wanted the 2k HR and 6k HC combo, but this seems like it will be similar. I am hoping to make the jump to my La Lune with slurry to start. I actually started getting somewhere with my La Lune finally after trying slurry so I am hoping I don't need the 8k in between. I don't mind the extra work. Keith doesn't consider any of these slates as anything close to the 12k they are rated and I don't have enough experience to confirm or refute that. If it is able to function like a 8k and still provide a shaveable edge then that's a win for me. If not, he get's another $100 for an 8k stone. The real question is whether I start on the 1.5k or try the 5k first and see what kind of rate I get. I was able raise a bur with the La Lune by doing edge trailing and it was finally grabbing hair, but of course once I stropped it that went away. I am hoping I can achieve something similar, but with a narrower apex, with the 5k. I won't be trying edge trailing with that though, at least not right away.

This all didn't play out how I wanted, but I am pretty confident that I can get my razor back into service and I didn't spend a small fortune. Now I have an excuse to buy a coticule once I learn a few things or when one of these stones splits.

 

[Wid]

Good luck with the stones.

 

[ables]

The 1.5k and 5k shapton are good razor stones and Keith is a well respected source of honing knowledge+experience. I have even shaved off the shapton 5k before for curiosity and often use it as a jumping point to natural finisher stones. I don't think you can go wrong working the 5k first and I don't think anything is wrong with your purchase! Good luck!

 

[thp001]

Shapton Pro are nice. Splash and go so no waiting for water to soak in and are a bit harder than other stones so keep their flatness longer so less lapping.

 

[Phoenixkh]

I wanted to get the Shapton Glass stones, but I am unable to find the right combination of shipping time, price and payment method. $70 is not a reasonable number for shipping stones, period. Neither is folding an additional $50 in the price of the product. That rant over, I ended up with the Shapton Pro 1.5k and 5k.

I was messaging back and forth with Keith Johnson about something else on his Etsy shop and he kept trying not to take my money! But I took a lot of his time, that isn't a fair deal so I hope this makes up for it a little. Anyway, those were the stones he had and I decided he deserved my money so I ordered them.

I originally wanted the 2k HR and 6k HC combo, but this seems like it will be similar. I am hoping to make the jump to my La Lune with slurry to start. I actually started getting somewhere with my La Lune finally after trying slurry so I am hoping I don't need the 8k in between. I don't mind the extra work. Keith doesn't consider any of these slates as anything close to the 12k they are rated and I don't have enough experience to confirm or refute that. If it is able to function like a 8k and still provide a shaveable edge then that's a win for me. If not, he get's another $100 for an 8k stone. The real question is whether I start on the 1.5k or try the 5k first and see what kind of rate I get. I was able raise a bur with the La Lune by doing edge trailing and it was finally grabbing hair, but of course once I stropped it that went away. I am hoping I can achieve something similar, but with a narrower apex, with the 5k. I won't be trying edge trailing with that though, at least not right away.

This all didn't play out how I wanted, but I am pretty confident that I can get my razor back into service and I didn't spend a small fortune. Now I have an excuse to buy a coticule once I learn a few things or when one of these stones splits.

I did some searching for Shapton stones a while back. At the time, the only place that seemed to have almost everything in stock was Lee Valley. https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/sea...sort=relevancy&layout=card&numberOfResults=25

I'd be curious how their pricing compares to where you bought yours. No rush.... My urge to get into straight razors has abated for the time being.

 

[SparkyLB]

If your question re. the 1.5 or 5 is for bevel setting, then I'd go with the 1.5.

I almost bought that Le Lune from Griffith when they had a brief 15% off a couple of weeks ago.

I just got a base stone, a Botan and Komo and Tomo, I'm waiting for a Tenjyou and Mejiro to arrive on Friday.

There will be a learning curve--but I'm going to work very hard to learn to hone. I've got an excellent and generous mentor on this forum who is walking me through and I'm in good hands.

Get yourself a handful of eBay rescues to practice on. When those are factory sharp, well--you know.

Good luck!

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

I agree the purple slates are not 12k and probably not, 8k equivalent. You will be fine with the 1.5 and 5K. Though an 8 would make you life so much easier. Trying to learn to hone and finishing on new slates could be difficult.

Bevel set on a 1.5k, just to get a baseline and get down to good steel, especially if you are learning to hone, eliminate as many variables as possible. If the edge is in decent shape, it goes quickly. Remove all the 1.5k stria with the 5k.

The 1.5 and 5k will both cut the same bevel width and apex thickness, not sure what you are hoping to achieve using a finer stone.

Raising a burr is not the goal of honing a razor, that is a knife technique. Once the burr breaks off you are left with a ragged edge. Hone trying not to raise a burr to get a straight, even shaving edge, that is the idea behind a progression.

 

[APBinNCA]

I suppose I should add here due to the vagueness of language of language that this thread title is more about poking fun at the difficulties I am having and not about the different methods of those with experience use. I realised this title could come off a bit flippant and that isn’t my intent.

Of course the two stones will get me to a certain point if I do my job correctly, but there seems to be two areas that I am finding complete disagreement.

One is whether I really should be going right back to the 1.5k on a razor that has been through stones already, but just isn’t cutting it. I thought from my reading that once you have a bevel, you shouldn’t go back any further than maybe 4k for maintenance work. I was thinking about marking the bevel and doing some light strokes on the 1.5k and looking at it at 10x and seeing at that point whether I should do more or move to the 5k.

The second area of disagreement seems to be after the 5k. I had originally intended to buy the 8k with the other two, but a lot of people on here were saying I won’t need it before I move to the La Lune. Everything elsewhere that I read keeps saying I need to spend some time on the 8k, but I don’t know if that is just outdated thinking.

I finally was able to watch video last night and saw Dr Matt’s La Lune video. To my relief, I had experimented with the stone exactly how he did and that was a relief. He was saying he was approaching it without any idea how it’s meant to be used so he tried a slurry with success. I still feel good about getting this stone. I just wish that I didn’t have to go back further right away like this, but nothing like being thrown in the deep end I guess?

 

[APBinNCA]

Thanks, just as I was typing!

I used the knife technique because I was on the La Lune purely to see it was even possible to raise a bur so I could estimate it’s hardness. The fact that I did without any force tells me what you said, I should be fine going from the 5k, the La Lune can do a lot. I won’t be employing this for shaving after I reset.

I did this because metal is going to have to come off anyway as I am going from a taped razor to un taped. It seemed like a a freebie

 

[Ravenonrock]

I am taking a few of my razors back to my 1k, because I think in my early enthusiasm I rushed through the early stages of progression. So I’m taking it slow, really checking the patterns left behind and making more informed and intentional next steps. Even though I’ve already set a bevel and have an edge I can shave with, taking selected razors back to the bevel setting stage and re working them has produced excellent results and shown me I have to really take my time and be thorough on the 1-3K zone.

 

[Phoenixkh]

You've probably already seen these YouTube videos but in case you haven't, I stumbled on them while searching for how much work it would take to get into Straight Razor shaving. They might help... or not. If not, please disregard, knowing my intensions are good. <eg> (evil grin: denotes an attempt at humor>

 

[Alum of Potash]

If the OP has a Shapton Pro 1,5k and 5k, and a contemporary La Lune stone, then I would suggest picking up a coticule to use between the 5k and the Lune stone. It's probably all he needs. A dragon's tongue might also suffice in lieu of a coticule, if we are talking large stones and wanting to keep costs down.

 

[APBinNCA]

You've probably already seen these YouTube videos but in case you haven't, I stumbled on them while searching for how much work it would take to get into Straight Razor shaving. They might help... or not. If not, please disregard, knowing my intensions are good. <eg> (evil grin: denotes an attempt at humor>

Actually when I said I have just been able to watch videos last night, I wasn't exaggerating! Thanks for the videos, if I am able to watch them.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

From what I gathered, you are honing a razor that you have attempted to hone on a modern slate, and you are also learning to hone. In a perfect world one could touch up with your finish stone, but your finish stone is of unknow grit rating and being a natural will vary from stone to stone, you are adding a huge number of variables to your learning to hone. Finish or at least pre-finish on a know grit, and quality finisher.

What magnification do you have? First before putting the razor to any hone, look at the bevel from the side and straight down at the edge. If the edge has chips, go to the 1.5k, if it is pristine start with the 5k. Honing blind is not a good technique.

If you honed on a slate with slurry and created a burr, you likely have a wonky edge and will need to get to solid steel.

98% of new honer honing failures are directly related to, failing to fully set a bevel. Grind the bevels to the proper angle, grind them flat and get them to meet evenly at the edge without chipping from heel to toe.

Do tape the spine until you have mastered honing, then decide if you want to continue to use tape. New honers often do too many laps and needlessly grind the bevels and then have to hone with tape to make up for lost steel.

Yea, don’t hone like Howard, he is an accomplished honer. A new honer trying to reproduce his technique is likely to end in disaster. Matt’s is a more conventional technique. Matt has lots of good learning videos.

 

[APBinNCA]

If the OP has a Shapton Pro 1,5k and 5k, and a contemporary La Lune stone, then I would suggest picking up a coticule to use between the 5k and the Lune stone. It's probably all he needs.

Oh, you went there! That is very much my intention. I had mentioned somewhere that I had done a very thorough study of the Dilucot method a couple years ago before getting into straights. It really helped inform me how to approach the La Lune. Am I correct that I have to figure out the right slurry for the stone I get to follow the 5k so it isn't taking off as much as the 5k? Then thin out to some point, but not all the way since I am going to the La Lune? There happens to be a coticule for sale right now, I may have to inquire if it is a good intermediate one...

Forget deep end, looks like I dove into an aquifer!

 

[Alum of Potash]

Oh, you went there! That is very much my intention. I had mentioned somewhere that I had done a very thorough study of the Dilucot method a couple years ago before getting into straights. It really helped inform me how to approach the La Lune. Am I correct that I have to figure out the right slurry for the stone I get to follow the 5k so it isn't taking off as much as the 5k? Then thin out to some point, but not all the way since I am going to the La Lune? There happens to be a coticule for sale right now, I may have to inquire if it is a good intermediate one...

Forget deep end, looks like I dove into an aquifer!

I would think that the 5k would be performing the office of a slurry on the coticule, so all you would need to use is the coticule with plain water. Ditto with the dragon's tongue, which I added to the statement as quoted.

 

[Darth Scandalous]

One is whether I really should be going right back to the 1.5k on a razor that has been through stones already, but just isn’t cutting it. I thought from my reading that once you have a bevel, you shouldn’t go back any further than maybe 4k for maintenance work. I was thinking about marking the bevel and doing some light strokes on the 1.5k and looking at it at 10x and seeing at that point whether I should do more or move to the 5k.

It's hard for us to answer that because we can't see the razor from here and there are some questions that can't easily be answered as a result. And please note, I'm not attacking you here, just pointing out the challenges for you and us.

1. We don't know what the state of the edge was when you got it
2. We don't know what caused the edge to deteriorate after you got it (errant stropping, maybe, but who knows? We weren't there), and we don't know how minor or major that damage was.
3. We don't know what the state of the edge is now as a result of the honing experiments you've done.
4. We don't know what your skill and comfort level is with honing
4. We DO know that the razor was honed on tape and that you've been doing laps on the La Lune without tape. We don't know to what extent that has changed the existing bevel.

So, how do we answer the question of how far back you need to go? There's a lot of "ifs" here. If the edge was properly honed when you got it, and if the subsequent damage done wasn't significant, then maybe the La Lune would bring it back. I don't know that stone so I really can't say. Certainly a synth 8k or lower would be capable of cleaning up the edge and setting you up to finish on the Lune. But again, this assumes that you were using tape, because the razor was already honed with tape.

The question of how far back you need to go depends entirely on the current state of the bevel and whether you intend to use tape or not. I think your life will be a lot easier in the short term if you use tape given that it was already honed with tape because at least you'll be working with the existing bevel. Fewer variables.

Do you own a loupe?

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

"Am I correct that I have to figure out the right slurry for the stone I get to follow the 5k so it isn't taking off as much as the 5k?"

A straight razor edge does not get fully straight until after the 8k. So you will be refining, straightening a 5k edge with a stone of unknow grit and quality. Add to that you are teaching yourself how to hone.

Learn to hone on a synthetic progression, of know grit and quality. Once you can repeatably produce comfortable shaving edges, experiment with natural finishers.

If you hone on the 1.5, 5k, finished on the slate and the edge is shaves like a hacksaw, where is the problem. Introduce a Coticule, you just multiplied the variables.

 

[APBinNCA]

Okay, this is generating the feedback I need and I appreciate it all. I have just acquired a 10x macro lens for my phone and from what I can tell, it is living up to expectations. I didn't get a cheap one, I already have cheap loupes and expensive photography loupes that I don't have access to right now. I do intend to both use the lens as I hone and take pictures so I can post.

I should make it clear that I am not exactly new at this, just the straight razor part. I also undertook quit a study a couple of years ago of all the different methods and how to accomplish them. I am not saying that with bravado, quit the opposite. I am much more likely to under do a stage than over do it. Partly because I am used to working with much coarser grits. Partly because I am avoiding using pressure unless the marker line isn't even being touched. I know I have to avoid flexing a hollow grind blade. Yes, I probably did roll the edge stropping it. I was having the opposite problem that people usually report, I was just dragging the spine back and forth. It turned out I had the strop pulled too tight to keep the edge in contact. I probably put some torsional force on it before I figured this out. I am going by sound.

As for the edge, as best I can tell I didn't do much damage. I only raised a bur just enough to see if I could get it to grab a hair. water only, no tape so barely touching the bevel. Afterwards, I stropped on paste to clean things up and leather. The main issue appears to be my resistance to using tape. I really don't like working with it, I tried it and the glue makes a mess. So I need to remove some metal to form a new bevel if I don't use tape. I was thinking about trying the tape again on the 5k first to see what effect it has. If it works then I will take it to the slate and shave and be happy with it for now. The problem is if it needs the 1.5k, I am not likely to be convinced to leave the tape on. As I said, I am only going to do a little bit, if I do, and if it looks like I am not on the right track, I will stop. I have no problem having it set by somebody else without tape, but right now I have a razor that needs work so why not at least try. I wish there were more cheap razors out that aren't a complete disaster or $100 that I can get quickly. I admit I want to get a usable razor right now, but I am willing to put in effort to make the one I have usable. It is in my personality to fix things and I am not sleeping well over this, I got up in the middle of the night to play with the La Lune. I am not impatient per se, just have to do things to keep my brain calm.

As for the coticule, no I won't be ordering that right now. I got the advice several times not to play with natural stones right now. I am pretty sure the La Lune will work off the 5k, it may not be perfect. Maybe I end up ordering the 8k.

 

[JPO]

I would get an 8k stone and avoid using slurry on the La Lune. I have two La Lunes stones. Slurry do not work well on mine. You might get by with just the 5k, but an 8k makes it much easier.
I am still figuring out my La Lune stones.
As have been said, adding the coticule adds a lot of more variables. Most of my coticules gives a better edge then my la lune stones, but I
have allot more practice with them.

The best results I have gotten with the la lune is using it with oil after an 8k. But that is with mi stones.